46 replies to this topic

[Blackmetal Raven]

Thanks for making LRMs so OP now with the BAP buff . Game has become a hide from LRM game now good job.

[Threat Doc]

Close your hole!!! Go out fighting like everyone else! If there's abundant ECM, or even just decent tactical prowess, on the opposing side, LRMs can become useless pretty quickly. Unfortunately, there are so many ways to trip up LRM-boat drivers in the game, already, that your complaints mean nothing. LRMs are as viable a weapon as any, except only around 25% of them hit, whereas brawling and sniping weapons smack LRM-boat drivers around all the time. Stop complaining, adapt and overcome, because your words are hollow.

[Wintersdark]

Maddone, on 21 November 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Thanks for making LRMs so OP now with the BAP buff . Game has become a hide from LRM game now good job.

Sorry, I hate to bust out the Learn To Play answer, but Learn To Play.

LRM's are terribly inefficient in terms of useful damage output per ton/slot invested.

[Eric Generic]

Wintersdark, on 21 November 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Sorry, I hate to bust out the Learn To Play answer, but Learn To Play.

LRM's are terribly inefficient in terms of useful damage output per ton/slot invested.

They are, however, incredibly easy to use and they don't require aim of any kind, due to the guided and arching missle stream, so you can hit targets that you can't with skill based weapons. 180 rounds per ton easily makes up for the ones that don't hit. Inefficient? Yes. Ineffective? No. Far from it.

[Wintersdark]

Gunther Nhilathok, on 22 November 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

They are, however, incredibly easy to use and they don't require aim of any kind, due to the guided and arching missle stream, so you can hit targets that you can't with skill based weapons. 180 rounds per ton easily makes up for the ones that don't hit. Inefficient? Yes. Ineffective? No. Far from it.

You're really limiting "skill" to point-and-click.

To use LRM's effectively requires either a lot of skill or bad opponents. There's a very real reason LRM's are used only rarely at higher skill levels: they're not good weapons.

If you just lock and fire at distant targets you can't see whenever you get a target lock, and hit things regularly, it's because your opponents suck. If people are hitting you that way, it's because you suck. It's trivially easy to neutralize LRM boats.

180 rouns per ton absolutely does not make up for ones that don't hit. Even pretty good players still only get a 30% hit rate with LRM's. That means a laughable 54 damage per ton of ammo, spread all over your target mech. That's bad. It's even worse if your not lucky, and the opposing team brings more AMS or ECM. Then the tonnage is basically completely wasted.

"Aiming" and hitting your target with lasers or ballistics isn't hard. It doesn't require skill. You don't even need to see your target, just click vaguely in the middle of the red box.

The LRM's, on the other hand, require the longest "Time On Target" of any weapon (well, except MG's and Flamers). You need to be facing directly at your target for essentially the complete flight time of the missiles. If you're direct-firing, this means they can be coring you while you toss grossly inaccurate low-damage missiles at them. If you're indirect-firing, you gain no benefit from Artemis, and you're only getting good hits if your opponents are bad.

Basically, to maintain a lock requires aim comparable to what's required to hit someone with a laser. Not a lot, but hitting someone with a laser is stupidly easy too. But unlike LRM's, the laser only needs a brief time on target window, is hitscan, and isn't impacted by ECM or Radar Derp.

Don't go the "LRM's are for skillless noobs" route. LRM's require every bit as much skill as any other weapon, it's just a different skillset. But more than that, LRM's require skill and luck/bad opponents/lack of countermeasures. Other weapons just require your ability to click a big red box.

[Sudden]

Kay Wolf, on 21 November 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

Close your hole!!! Go out fighting like everyone else! If there's abundant ECM, or even just decent tactical prowess, on the opposing side, LRMs can become useless pretty quickly. Unfortunately, there are so many ways to trip up LRM-boat drivers in the game, already, that your complaints mean nothing. LRMs are as viable a weapon as any, except only around 25% of them hit, whereas brawling and sniping weapons smack LRM-boat drivers around all the time. Stop complaining, adapt and overcome, because your words are hollow.

I agree with this

[Eric Generic]

Wintersdark, on 22 November 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

You're really limiting "skill" to point-and-click.

To use LRM's effectively requires either a lot of skill or bad opponents. There's a very real reason LRM's are used only rarely at higher skill levels: they're not good weapons.

If you just lock and fire at distant targets you can't see whenever you get a target lock, and hit things regularly, it's because your opponents suck. If people are hitting you that way, it's because you suck. It's trivially easy to neutralize LRM boats.

180 rouns per ton absolutely does not make up for ones that don't hit. Even pretty good players still only get a 30% hit rate with LRM's. That means a laughable 54 damage per ton of ammo, spread all over your target mech. That's bad. It's even worse if your not lucky, and the opposing team brings more AMS or ECM. Then the tonnage is basically completely wasted.

"Aiming" and hitting your target with lasers or ballistics isn't hard. It doesn't require skill. You don't even need to see your target, just click vaguely in the middle of the red box.

The LRM's, on the other hand, require the longest "Time On Target" of any weapon (well, except MG's and Flamers). You need to be facing directly at your target for essentially the complete flight time of the missiles. If you're direct-firing, this means they can be coring you while you toss grossly inaccurate low-damage missiles at them. If you're indirect-firing, you gain no benefit from Artemis, and you're only getting good hits if your opponents are bad.

Basically, to maintain a lock requires aim comparable to what's required to hit someone with a laser. Not a lot, but hitting someone with a laser is stupidly easy too. But unlike LRM's, the laser only needs a brief time on target window, is hitscan, and isn't impacted by ECM or Radar Derp.

Don't go the "LRM's are for skillless noobs" route. LRM's require every bit as much skill as any other weapon, it's just a different skillset. But more than that, LRM's require skill and luck/bad opponents/lack of countermeasures. Other weapons just require your ability to click a big red box.

TLDR.

Saw something about skillless noobs in there. You can apply skill to lrms and make them more effective, but you don't require any to be somewhat effective with them. What with their ability to shoot around/over cover. Therefore, I do not class them with skill based weapons.

Also saw something about whining because 180 rounds a ton doesn't count for much damage. When half of your team is using them, it counts for a lot. Mechs melt under that punishment and it only takes a few seconds to happen.

[Wintersdark]

Gunther Nhilathok, on 22 November 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

TLDR.

Saw something about skillless noobs in there. You can apply skill to lrms and make them more effective, but you don't require any to be somewhat effective with them. What with their ability to shoot around/over cover. Therefore, I do not class them with skill based weapons.

Also saw something about whining because 180 rounds a ton doesn't count for much damage. When half of your team is using them, it counts for a lot. Mechs melt under that punishment and it only takes a few seconds to happen.

I'll be brief, as to not overwhelm your limited literacy.

You don't require any skill to be somewhat effective with lasers. Point and click. Mechs are huge, lasers are hitscan. Average laser hitrate: 80%. Average LRM hitrate: 30%.

Point and click is easy. Accurate fire, maybe not, but we're only talking about "somewhat useful".

When half your team is running [insert any weapon], it counts for a lot.

But unlike every other weapon, LRM's have many passive and active counters. Simply running AMS greatly reduces LRM effectiveness, or standing vaguely near allies with AMS. ECM can completely negate them.

LRM's are only particularly good weapons when fighting bad players.

[Eric Generic]

Wintersdark, on 22 November 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

I'll be brief, as to not overwhelm your limited literacy.

You don't require any skill to be somewhat effective with lasers. Point and click. Mechs are huge, lasers are hitscan. Average laser hitrate: 80%. Average LRM hitrate: 30%.

Point and click is easy. Accurate fire, maybe not, but we're only talking about "somewhat useful".

When half your team is running [insert any weapon], it counts for a lot.

But unlike every other weapon, LRM's have many passive and active counters. Simply running AMS greatly reduces LRM effectiveness, or standing vaguely near allies with AMS. ECM can completely negate them.

LRM's are only particularly good weapons when fighting bad players.

What does literacy mean?

Seriously, where are you getting these numbers? Are they your averages? Or are they just generalized assumptions?

When firing a laser, yes, the hit rate is high, but the damage isn't typically full because you have to keep them aimed at the same part of an often moving mech to concentrate the damage. Pulse lasers are pretty good at this, but most others are not. You can sweep something at mid/long range with several ERLL and only do a few damage because of their movement vs your movement+aim.

When half of your team is running a weapon that is guided rather than aimed, then half of your team will be doing enough damage to crush an Atlas in seconds. They only need someone to spot/tag/narc the target or to pop a UAV. UAVs counter everything that would disrupt lrm locks, btw. You can get a full minute of uninterrupted locks if the other team is too busy to shoot it down.

AMS doesn't do you much good unless you have several together.

LRMs don't have to be particularly good because they have quanity to make up for quality. If other weapons could change trajectory mid-flight and hit targets with no line of sight required, then I'm sure that they'd be getting overused as well. But they can't, so it's LRMs that get poked at most often.

[Revorn]

Iam fine with my 4 LRM5 Atremis Golden Boy. Tag and 2 Meds.

Iam giving up 5 Tonns for additional LRMing Equipment. Therefore iam going after as much Los as possible, If the Enemy is to greedy and dont spend some of his Weigth for AMS and then dies to my wimpy LRM5, ist not my Fault. Sry.

I mean, one, simply only one AMS, would take me nearly entyerly out of Game, Besides every other Counter vs LRMs, wich are in the Game.

Sry, i dont have any understanding for People, wich die through their own greedyness.

Edited by Revorn, 22 November 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Divine Decoy]

Once again, until we get IN GAME VOICE to coordinate, or some kind of Lobby system (pick mechs with ppl you playing with, etc) NOOBAGE will still OWN drops. selfish ppl playing their mech afraid to die or do anything. No leadership, no communication to focus fire.

Those of us that get it, and have used TS understand how important these things are. Using a mech that helps the team, calling targets, etc. Those that don't or don't want to (some times i just want to destroy not plan) will keep suffering noobage pawnging of LRMs, and teams that don't know how to play against LRMs, and selfish ECM lights sniping away from the team.....

[Wintersdark]

Gunther Nhilathok, on 22 November 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Seriously, where are you getting these numbers? Are they your averages? Or are they just generalized assumptions?

Many forum threads discussing the matter over the years, later ones including screenshotted stats. They're aggregate numbers, and highly representative of average players. Look at your stats; I bet they're pretty close.

Quote

When firing a laser, yes, the hit rate is high, but the damage isn't typically full because you have to keep them aimed at the same part of an often moving mech to concentrate the damage. Pulse lasers are pretty good at this, but most others are not. You can sweep something at mid/long range with several ERLL and only do a few damage because of their movement vs your movement+aim.

And that effect is exactly the same as firing LRM's at a moving target. Many miss entirely due to geometry/tracking speed/spread, more at destroyed inbound by AMS. A single AMS unit, unbuffed by range/ROF modules, will typically destroy 5 inbound missiles. 3 AMS units completely negate an LRM15 launcher.

Quote

When half of your team is running a weapon that is guided rather than aimed, then half of your team will be doing enough damage to crush an Atlas in seconds. They only need someone to spot/tag/narc the target or to pop a UAV. UAVs counter everything that would disrupt lrm locks, btw. You can get a full minute of uninterrupted locks if the other team is too busy to shoot it down.

This, too, only happens vs. bad players.

LRM's are quite effective in low Elo for all the reasons you state, and as I've been saying. But the solution is easy: get better. Watch for UAV launches (or tactical indications of their presence - LRM's raining when they've got no LOS, and there's no NARC indicators anyways). If I get 20 seconds out of a UAV, it's shocking - and I use them very frequently on my brawlers for enhanced situational awareness (that is, I'm not herfing LRM's at people they reveal).

Quote

AMS doesn't do you much good unless you have several together.

Even one AMS makes a difference, but if your opposing team has lots of LRM's, watch for AMS friendly tracer fire, stay closer.

Quote

LRMs don't have to be particularly good because they have quanity to make up for quality. If other weapons could change trajectory mid-flight and hit targets with no line of sight required, then I'm sure that they'd be getting overused as well. But they can't, so it's LRMs that get poked at most often.

This only exists as an issue if you allow several enemy LRM boats to fire at you successfully. Alpine and Caustic excluded (LRM's are pretty strong on those two maps) all the maps have ample cover to render LRM's functionally useless.

Seriously, I've got thousands of drops under my belt. In that time, excluding the various "LRMageddons" over the years, I've almost never died to LRM's - massed or otherwise. Not because I'm special - I'm not. I'm experienced, but not amazing. Just because it's so damn easy to deny enemy LRM boats good firing opportunities.

Simply equipping Radar Derp (which you should have: it's the first thing you should buy after your first mech, particularly if LRM's are an issue for you) means there's zero reason LRM's should hit you at all.

Sometimes, this means against a LRM heavy team, you have to play peekaboo a bit to get them to burn ammo OR just rush them. The choice of which depends heavily on the makeup of the enemy team and what your team does.



The key, though, is don't be the only target visible. If there's a spotter, don't leave him alone to spot. If he can't hold a target on you, they can't hold locks on you. Move backwards and turn, as soon as the LRM boat loses lock the LRM's pound into the dirt.


Seriously, negating LRM's is entirely a L2P issue. Again, there's a reason they're practically unused in competitive play.

[Wintersdark]

Revorn, on 22 November 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Iam fine with my 4 LRM5 Atremis Golden Boy. Tag and 2 Meds.

Iam giving up 5 Tonns for additional LRMing Equipment. Therefore iam going after as much Los as possible, If the Enemy is to greedy and dont spend some of his Weigth for AMS and then dies to my wimpy LRM5, ist not my Fault. Sry.

I mean, one, simply only one AMS, would take me nearly entyerly out of Game, Besides every other Counter vs LRMs, wich are in the Game.

Sry, i dont have any understanding for People, wich die through their own greedyness.

Yup. Bring AMS, and you make LRM's less effective against you and against the rest of your team. Add Radar Derp, ECM, and attention to take down UAV's and those LRM boats have wasted a hell of a lot of tonnage.

LRM's are only particularly effective in low-Elo. They're useful beyond, of course, but are absolutely not better than most other weapons, and are strictly worse than many.

Not dying to LRM's is entirely in the hands of the player. It's not at all hard to do, players just need to understand that it's their own poor play leading to their death - until one accepts that, one won't improve.

[Benjamin Davion]

The problem right now with the LRMs is that no one wants to actuall fight them like intelligent human beings, which is to say, push them, and they die. No, they're more concerned with staying alive and scoring cheap points in whatever tournament happens to be going on that weekend, so they turtle behind the biggest piece of cover they can find on every single match and then get confused why they lost 37 times in a row. Those of us who ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME and push on the LRM boats get left completely alone because everyone else is 1000 meters away hiding.

For this reason, I basically refuse to run anything but ECM lights during these stupid tournaments because at least I can move around the map and try to salvage something while my team hides. HOWEVER, the major buff on BAP really does make life a lot more difficult for light pilots. Because we haven't been nerfed enough...

Edited by Benjamin Davion, 22 November 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[Uncleclint]

Wintersdark, on 22 November 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

everything in this whole thread

and i am glad i wasn´t TLDR - couldn´t agree more with everything that you said about LRM´s and the entire skill-noskill issue. I think that right now the LRMs are at a very fine state and don´t need any more nerfs. This Victor-challenge might actually be the real problem. Good thing, it´ll only last another 2 days and maybe after that we can resume the usual PUGplay.

[Diablo Intercepter]

Wintersdark, on 22 November 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

When half your team is running [insert any weapon], it counts for a lot.

What about flamers?

Edited by Diablo Intercepter, 22 November 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Gunther Nhilathok, on 22 November 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

They are, however, incredibly easy to use and they don't require aim of any kind, due to the guided and arching missle stream, so you can hit targets that you can't with skill based weapons. 180 rounds per ton easily makes up for the ones that don't hit. Inefficient? Yes. Ineffective? No. Far from it.

Okay, this whole thing is just bass-ackwards thinking, completely wrong. Going above and beyond what Wintersdark has said, much to his credit and my gratitude,

1) LRMs are MORE highly skill-based than any other weapon in the game, because you're sticking beyond your 180 meters and, typically, much further than that. If I can start lobbing LRMs at 1100 meters, with buffs, you better believe I will, because it will soon be the bloody stinkin' stupid lights coming to kill me. So, while I'm moving around with my team, I'm actually using them as shields against other incoming fire, and waiting for the worms. It's not my level of skill, or lack thereof, that keeps bad guys away from my position, it's going to happen, no matter what, and I'm not a brawler. Believe you-me, I've tried to become a brawler, to very limited success.

2) When I start throwing LRMs, they are only semi-guided, and I have to keep my reticule on target the entire flight of missiles, I cannot simply switch to another 'Mech, lock and fire. If I am unable to keep my reticule on the target I'm trying to hit -if they move behind cover for long enough, have Radar Deprivation, come under ECM protection, and/or shut down for a few seconds to clear me off, I can't hold that lock- my LRMs go to the last location I was firing into, not into the 'Mech I was aiming at. This can be a fairly maddening experience; it's really maddening when NARC is negated because of Radar Derp.

3) The ONLY item, from the four I just listed, that I have ANY control over whatsoever, is terrain. If a bad guy is locked for Incoming Missiles -which you actually get a warning about, because you DON'T get that warning with ANY other weapon system inbound, which is unfair to LRM boat drivers, actually- and steps behind most cover, that reduces the number of missiles that hit, on top of their own, and any friendly AMS in the area, especially since the AMS range has now been tripled from what it's supposed to be. There are two things I can do about this... I can lock a new bad guy and try to help out where I may, OR I can change positions to continue hitting the target I was working on. This latter one is not just a few degrees off my present station, but up to several hundred meters in one direction or another, which invariably puts me in-line with other opposition 'Mechs.

4) When you try to tell me that LRMs are not skill-based at all, I have to laugh at you, because if you think laser's or ballistic's are skill-based, you're smoking crack. You are looking at your opponent, you don't have to clear obstacles on BOTH ends of the missile's path to-hit, you just point-and-click. So, when Wintersdark tells you that you have DIFFERENT skills, that's precisely what he means... you get on-target, look at them, point-and-click, and that's ALL you do. The use of LRMs requires DIFFERENT skills than you, but it requires far more skill than you have obviously dealt with.

When I'm using my LRMs, I am not in the game with a kill-based mentality, because for me LRMs are about suppressive fire. If one of my compatriots in the drop NARCs an opponent and calls them out, I'm right on them, but most of the time I will find an opponent, wait the fifteen seconds it takes to get through the amazing ECM bubble they have over them -which means fifteen seconds of waiting to die- and then work on putting them behind cover, so my guys can advance more closely and beat the snot out of the bad guys.

LRMs are not only as viable a weapon as any other in the game, but they are the ultimate teamwork weapon. Those who fail to get and/or maintain locks are making a request for their own doom. If I can help you, the brawler or sniper, on the field trying to get to an opposing 'Mech and splash them, to do so, then I've done my job. However, I need you to lock your target, stop the stupidity of rolling your torso to spread damage around, keep the lock, and communicate with me, I will help you splash that zero. Alternately, if you, or one of your PUG compatriots are not working to keep a lock so I CAN help you, then you guys are hiding and not doing your jobs. It's up to you... trust and help your LRM boat drivers, and they will help you, or don't and die on the field.

Gunther Nhilathok, on 22 November 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Seriously, where are you getting these numbers? Are they your averages? Or are they just generalized assumptions?

These were numbers from my own direct experience over two years of playing this game -I took a year off.

Quote

When firing a laser, yes, the hit rate is high, but the damage isn't typically full because you have to keep them aimed at the same part of an often moving mech to concentrate the damage. Pulse lasers are pretty good at this, but most others are not. You can sweep something at mid/long range with several ERLL and only do a few damage because of their movement vs your movement+aim.

It's the same thing with LRMs. If I am moving, I have a smaller chance to hit due to the physics of the game, and a greater chance at breaking my lock, due to elevation changes, sudden drops, etc., which sees the LRMs hitting where I lost my lock, not the 'Mech I was aiming at. IF I'm sitting still for too long, I'm dead. If there is too much ECM on the enemy team, or ECM around me, or both, that I am unable to negate, for whatever reason, I lose locks, and my missiles go where the lock was lost, not to the 'Mech I was aiming at. All weapons have their pro's and con's, but I also have to worry about intervening terrain if I'm not seeing my target directly. Oh, and Artemis on my missiles doesn't work unless I have direct LOS to my target, so no bonuses there much of the time. I have to make sure I clear up and over any obstacle I'm firing at and, more often than not, I do not know if my missiles are exploding against the environment or a 'Mech, especially if others are firing at that same 'Mech, unless the paper doll is changing colors. That's yet another skill, knowing when to fire and when not to fire, and trying to discern whether friends are firing at the same target, or not.

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When half of your team is running a weapon that is guided rather than aimed, then half of your team will be doing enough damage to crush an Atlas in seconds. They only need someone to spot/tag/narc the target or to pop a UAV. UAVs counter everything that would disrupt lrm locks, btw. You can get a full minute of uninterrupted locks if the other team is too busy to shoot it down.

No, and no. In the first place, LRMs are only semi-guided; that means I have to stay in place and keep my reticule in the target box for the full-length of flight of the missiles. As long as I'm a long way away from any opposition, that's fine and it works; however, if not, I'm a sitting duck, a dead 'Mech, and there's NOTHING I can do about that. Second, do you know how hard it is, when I have no NARC or TAG on my team and we're playing with a group of PUGs, to get someone to do NARC'ing, TAG'ing or spotting of any kind from anyone not affiliated with my friend's and I; it's friggin' impossible and, more often than not, I end up dying with over half my missile payload still in the bay because of the lack of coordination. I know the only nights I'm going to have a good combat night in are the ones where there are six or more of us in TeamSpeak and working together; my people are AWESOME!!! Without them, I'm pretty useless. Third, and most important, it doesn't matter if there's a UAV up or not... I still have to get locks, and I still have to get through ECM not covered by the UAV bubble. The UAV might see a lot of the bad guys, and relay it to me, but if an ECM 'Mech is outside of the signal denial effects range, I still have to use between 8 and 15 seconds to lock onto them and, by then, the UAV is down. UAVs have a very limited effectiveness involving LRMs.

Quote

LRMs don't have to be particularly good because they have quanity to make up for quality. If other weapons could change trajectory mid-flight and hit targets with no line of sight required, then I'm sure that they'd be getting overused as well. But they can't, so it's LRMs that get poked at most often.

Ah, the trajectory change argument... LRMs can only change a few degrees per second. If I lose a lock to a 'Mech I'm aiming at, my LRMs continue in a straight line from that point, to impact where the target WAS, not against the target itself. If I re-establish my lock before they arrive, however, my LRMs may still miss, especially if the target is a Light 'Mech moving quickly, and my LRMs land harmlessly, anyway.

Look, it's a dog fight out there, much like you can see in World War II dog fighting videos, and there's not much that can be done about it. LRMs are designed more to be a suppression tool rather than a killing weapon. Have I killed my fair share of 'Mechs with LRMs? Yes and no... no, because if I were actually playing in tabletop, around 60% of my LRMs would hit as opposed to the 25 - 30% I get in this game, but yes because I've had some really good pure kills with my boats. Have I had my fair share of assists in this game? Damn skippy, and I intend to continue doing so, and it's the reason why assists are worth more in C-Bills and experience than straight kills; as it should be. Do I have fun running my LRM boats, even with all of the things that can negate the crap out of hitting ANYTHING with LRMs? Yes, I do. Why? Because I have to figure out how and where the enemy are going, what enemy is best to hit, rapidly decide where my buddies who need my assistance are, and do something to help them out. It is a NICE bonus when I get kills. I got four in my second game played last night, with my KTO-18 Angry Typewriter, one of which was a pure kill of my own; I should drink when I play more often, hehe. It's not been NECESSARY for me to get kills in-game for a long time, now, and when I gave up the notion of getting kills, that's when I started getting more kills. Nice, huh?

So, the moral of the story is this... you cannot shoot through rocks or buildings, so you have to keep moving to keep on targets and keep from getting killed as much as possible, so LRM boat drivers are more highly skilled than direct-fire weenies. Every time I hear direct-fire weenies, who take a 25% of actual damage point-for-missile hit, scream and yell about LRMs, I have to giggle, and then I have to work harder to piss them off even more. Stop complaining about missiles, they're semi-guided but much weaker than a direct hit from a laser or ballistic weapon, which do full damage much of the time, and learn to play.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 22 November 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[The Bagel]

Very effective in PUG matches, not so much in team play where ECM rules the day and coordinated rushing of LRM boats can happen to take them out quick. Nuff said

[Threat Doc]

Not "'Nuff Said", as I've seen this as pretty consistently the opposite of what you've said, Bagel.

[Summon3r]

Maddone, on 21 November 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Thanks for making LRMs so OP now with the BAP buff . Game has become a hide from LRM game now good job.

hide from lrm game... this is new?.. only time it isnt is comp/league drops for the most part and your very odd pug match