65 replies to this topic

[Eximar]

Future Perfect, on 26 June 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yes because a star has five points, right?

Nope, because clanners are odd. Da-bump-tissssshhhhh

[Zarax]

Imho to be fair:

- 2 stars VS 3 lances
- Clan weight 75% of IS weight.

[Vasces Diablo]

Fl3tcher, on 26 June 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

TT is mostly points based, the only time you would play a tonnage based game against clans is if your both using clan tech. For example,
Timberwolf Prime is 5835 pts
MAD- 5M Marauder is 5448 pts

That 400 odd points may not seem like much of a difference. but the equipment / vehicles/ infantry you buy to augment your forces can mean the difference between defeat and victory.

Also, the devs have said that the clans are coming, nothing has been said that they'll be playable has there?

This is exactly my point. People keep assuming that the TT battle values apply to online play, but I don't think they do. A balanced match of clan vs IS in TT terms would prob favor IS in online play, again because sheer number advantage that would result is a bigger deal in the (most likly) less instantly lethal online environment. That match up you propose is hugely imbalances in TT, but that MArauder player would win more often in online play than TT.

I also agree that just because clans will be I game doesn't mean we'll be playing them. Debs have even stated "they will control some key worlds" for story purposes. So they are more than willing to run a faction to make sure things move the way they want them to.

[mullet steve]

Phasics, on 26 June 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

Or, and lets get crazy for a second

just balance the clan mechs with IS ones by either making IS ones better or clan ones worse level playing field problem solved

sounds wrong... totaly wrong, Clans were overpowered..... Clans came in gave everyone a bloody beating to start with then IS got smart and started learning and formed a united front .....

the clans should be overpowered they should be almost impossible to take on 1 vs 1...
I have no problem with smaller units of clan mechs taking on full teams of IS mechs...
there was a system of Ba-jall or something similar that appeared in the battletech cartoon series, this is the only source of my clan knowledge.... Clans should be rewarded for fielding smaller groups of mechs

[trycksh0t]

Keep the Clan tech limited to Omni (OmniMechs, OmniPod weapons, etc...).

Clan 'Mechs now cost 5-times the IS equivalent to purchase and maintain. Depending on how C-bills are awarded per-match, that's a big difference.

Double the price of Clan weapons compared to their IS counterpart.

And, since Clan weaponry is Omni-based, it can only be mounted to OmniMechs.

[Phasics]

mullet steve, on 26 June 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

sounds wrong... totaly wrong, Clans were overpowered..... Clans came in gave everyone a bloody beating to start with then IS got smart and started learning and formed a united front .....

the clans should be overpowered they should be almost impossible to take on 1 vs 1...
I have no problem with smaller units of clan mechs taking on full teams of IS mechs...
there was a system of Ba-jall or something similar that appeared in the battletech cartoon series, this is the only source of my clan knowledge.... Clans should be rewarded for fielding smaller groups of mechs

It's a game its meant to be fun, unbalanced games are not fun

having lop sided teams in PvP matches to compensate for unbalanced mechs is a bad idea that would hurt the game a hell of a lot more than it would help it.

You can try to come up with ways of levelling the playing field while keeping clan mechs unbalanced but its recipe for alienating part of your playerbase.

Keep things fair and the majority will be happy because in the end most people just want a fair game

[Seabear]

If the clan culture follows canon, aclan warrior will face several hurdles just to be selected for combat against IS opponents. In addition to what amounts to a single elimination tourment just to be selected as worthy to fight , there is the bidding system where the assignment goes to the lowest bidder. If the bidding system and the clan honor system makes the transision to the game intact, I see the battles as being a bit more balanced than many see them. The clan system has several weaknesses that are not obvious to many folks new to BT/MW

[Alfred VonGunn]

Phasics, on 26 June 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

Or, and lets get crazy for a second

just balance the clan mechs with IS ones by either making IS ones better or clan ones worse level playing field problem solved

Then they wouldn't be IS Mechs anymore.. They would just be Different Clan mechs... and it would be MW4 with better graphics

[PANZERBUNNY]

StandingCow, on 26 June 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

So, it is pretty much impossible to balance clan mechs and items against IS stuff... so instead of trying to balance it what about making it fully destructible? As in, if your mech dies or you have a clan weapon blown off... you lose it and would to purchase a new one (With Cbills of course).

Battle Value, just like in the TT.

There you go. Solved.

IS mechs can't use Clan tech.

Also solved.

Seabear, on 26 June 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

If the clan culture follows canon, aclan warrior will face several hurdles just to be selected for combat against IS opponents. In addition to what amounts to a single elimination tourment just to be selected as worthy to fight , there is the bidding system where the assignment goes to the lowest bidder. If the bidding system and the clan honor system makes the transision to the game intact, I see the battles as being a bit more balanced than many see them. The clan system has several weaknesses that are not obvious to many folks new to BT/MW

I'm sure canon bidding will not be in the game.

Straight up BV baby.

[Colddawg]

clan weight 90% of IS weight and binary vs company

[BigMo5]

Phasics, on 26 June 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

It's a game its meant to be fun, unbalanced games are not fun

having lop sided teams in PvP matches to compensate for unbalanced mechs is a bad idea that would hurt the game a hell of a lot more than it would help it.

You can try to come up with ways of levelling the playing field while keeping clan mechs unbalanced but its recipe for alienating part of your playerbase.

Keep things fair and the majority will be happy because in the end most people just want a fair game

Interesting you talk about Fair Game. The Clan fought with a Warriors Code, the IS didn't. The Clans would not send in equal strength, they sent in only that which was needed. The Common Gamer on the internet doesn't even have a clue about a warriors code. Want to play with Clan tech(when ever its introduced) then prepare to be fighting an up hill battle. Because Balancing the way you are suggesting will alienate more then the few that don't get it.

[Petroff Northrup]

I know a couple people have already said it but probably the easiest way to balance clan vs. IS once it comes around months from now is set matches as 10 vs. 12 or even 5 vs. 12 early on if the tech disadvantage is significant enough to warrant it.

[Goldfinger]

Game is not even in open beta, and folks are already agonizing over clantech?!?!? Oy.

Aren't we getting a bit ahead of ourselves? Here's a balance idea: clanners are AI opponents, and nobody gets access to clantech!

[JackCrow]

Yes, these people are way ahead of themselves. Most of these people don't even know the difference between an omnimech and a battlemech.

Also, none of these video games have been truly faithful to the tabletop source material. And this was a good thing. We used to have some epic Clan vs. IS battles in Mechcommander. Some of the guys who specialized in IS tech were unbeatable. I trust that the game designers will find a way to achieve balance.

[BlazeKaiser]

The main problem with these entire discussion are easy to understand.

IS tech has about 10 years to get back to the level of the Star League 300 years before. CLans on the other hand have 300 years to improved upon that without losing any ground.

a good example of the tech difference are the Inner Sphere Thug, 80tons 64kph speed, 2 ppcs, 2 srm-6s. and the Clan Cougar, 35 tons, 97kph speed, 2 (ER) Large Pulse Lasers, 2 long range missiles(10x2).

a 35 ton clan mech has more firepower than a standard 80ton IS mech. Thug has alot more armor of course.
--------------
The previous mechwarrior games were iffy about the variance between IS and clan tech. Mechwarrior 2 was probably the most accurate. Mechwarrior 4 was alot more inaccurate in ways, such as all IS energy weapons were the Extended range variety, without the extra heat(or moniker) to make IS and Clan seem more even.

This game will show the problems are great, similar to mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries. In that, you played as an IS merc until the clan Invasion. Clan mechs appear and even the small Fire Moth is massively powerful.

Now this game will have the problem too. IS Gauss Rifles, ER PPCs, and some artillery such as the Arrow 4 are the biggest guns the IS will get. The ER PPC is only 65% as strong as a clan ER PPC, lower range too.

In fact thats the best way to describe IS tech "at best 65% of clan tech". endo-steel chassis, ferro fibrous armor, Extralight engine, the IS versions take up/weigh a third more.

Edited by BlazeKaiser, 28 June 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Skyefox]

Balancing the Clans against the IS during the initial addition of the Clans could be simpler than anyone is realizing. Some starter ideas:
Clan spawns on the map could be at a geographical disadvantage, whether due to height, blocked terrain (the Clans tend to field a much lower number of jump capable Mechs), or simply being a greater distance to an objective.

In the traditional role of invaders, the Clan side of things could mean they actually respawn LATER or have longer wait times than their IS counterparts.

As stated by those knowledgable poster before me, the numbers game is both canon and an effective means of balance. The bidding system, if actually implemented, would be incredibly amusing to me.

There's still the matter of who, or how, Clan "players" will be determined, whether it be a nominal fee, or a leaderboard, or even random draw. If every 3rd and 4th player on a leaderboard (3rd-4th, 6th-8th, 9th-12th, etc) was selected, you'd find someone hard pressed to manipulate the scoring system to get clan Tech. This also means that the best players won't get the best technology either, also important in terms of balancing.

There's plenty to do when it comes to balance other than bend/break canon to make it work.

BlazeKaiser, on 28 June 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

a good example of the tech difference are the Inner Sphere Thug, 80tons 64kph speed, 2 ppcs, 2 srm-6s. and the Clan Cougar, 35 tons, 97kph speed, 2 (ER) Large Pulse Lasers, 2 long range missiles(10x2).

a 35 ton clan mech has more firepower than a standard 80ton IS mech. Thug has alot more armor of course.

Cougar moves at 86 kph. They dropped the top speed on the Puma(Adder) Chassis to add more weapons, resulting in the 19 tons of pod space. That's some 3060 tech anyhow, comparing the Puma to the Thug would be more appropriate.

[James Pryde IIC]

my reply from another topic similar to this:

OOC perhaps IS mechs and lances / commands, can have access to support, IE: Artillery markers, mines, hot drop of infantry, stealth mode, air strike, spy sat uplink for 10 secs ? to offset the superior Clan mechs

this could be a way of balance, as when the Clans first hit the Inner Sphere, they only knew how to fight Zell (and did not use support), they did not know / anticipate the dirty / total war tactics of the IS, Tukyyaid was a major example of this.

Edited by JAMESPRYDE, 30 June 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[MajorLeeHung]

Ill tell you how Ima deal with the clan tech issue! IM GONNA FIRE MA LAZORS AT EVERY ONE OF THE ********! DIE TANK BREAD SCUM! *warcry*

[James Pryde IIC]

MajorLeeHung, on 30 June 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Ill tell you how Ima deal with the clan tech issue! IM GONNA FIRE MA LAZORS AT EVERY ONE OF THE ********! DIE TANK BREAD SCUM! *warcry*

you shall learn obidence, as someones bondsman one day, hahah

[Aethon]

Battle Value. It's been said before, and ignored over and over. It's the sensible solution, and will be more future-proof than any other suggestion.

Numerical superiority won't always work. Breaking canon without just cause is a bad idea altogether.

I think I need to just save my response in a text file and copy/paste it every time these threads come up; retyping the same response over and over is getting old.