432 replies to this topic

[Saobh]

R Razor, on 27 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Once again you show your lack of intelligence.........artillery is not in this game, if it were it'd be called a LONG TOM...........LRM's are a MECH weapon, not artillery. Try again genius. The only one looking foolish here is you, both with your inability to comprehend basic math as well as your inability to look beyond your unhealthy love affair with your LRM's. (that may not be your fault as I know others that are incapable of playing this game without using that particular crutch as well).

Artillery also does not "home in" on a target like your LRM's do, if you had any true knowledge of the game you'd agree that LRM's should not be able to fire on a target the carrying mech can't see UNLESS that target is being lased with a TAG laser, or has a NARC beacon on it. That won't work for you though will it? Might not be able to build your bank account so easily if you had to actually WORK for your kills and damage.

Humm tbh Mechs can be considered as "self-propelled artillery" as they carry a variety of weapons which are artillery class weapons considering their size.
And as LRM are ... "Long Range Missiles" which per definition are self properled guided weapons it is not a wonder that they are able to follow a target as long as its still receiving it whereabouts, you know -----> that lock thingy we have to wait to acquire to get info on our target.

And as that targeting information is being shared with the rest of the team in real time ... why wouldn't a missile also get it.

Aren't these things supposed to be advanced war machines ? not 18th century archers ...

[Dimento Graven]

All of you actually have missed the point, some of you have purposely not comprehended some of my previous points.

I'll lay everything out again:

1. LRMs, in normal drop situations are fine.

They don't require a lot of skill to do well with, and if the pilot has moderate skill they can be quite deadly.

In normal drop situations where you have only 2 or 3 "support mechs" dropping per side per match, no issues.

2. The use of/boating of LRMs, during challenges increases SIGNIFICANTLY. To the point where we go from 2 or 3 support 'mechs per side per drop to upwards of 8 or more per side, per drop.

This is because of the facts of point 1, namely LRMs don't require a lot of skill to do well, and when you do have skill they can be quite ugly. For the typical challenge score calc:

(kills * x)+(assists * y)+((damage on enemy-damage on team)/15)

It becomes very easy to get high score due to it being easy to get LOTS of assists with LRMs since you can utilize your teammate's target locks, NARCs, TAGs, UAVs, et al, taking advantage of indirect fire and due to the fact that MOST people when loading LRMs load over a 1000 missiles, the potential for easily dealing HIGH DAMAGE in a match is significant.

LRMS are easy mode. Anyone who can't accept this fact is lying to themselves to the detriment of their own game play, but that's their personal decision.

3. LRM boat pilots, when most effective are utilizing friendly targeting information as mentioned above, and are getting a 'free ride' on other people's efforts.

Hence the propensity for people to gravitate towards using LRMs.

The challenges can be difficult and can take a while to complete, and of course, everyone wants their 'cookie' RIGHT ******* NOW!!!

4. I'll repeat this portion from point one over again: LRMs, in of themselves, do not need to be nerfed. They are working fine as is. What we really need is to change the challenge scoring calcs such that the free ride most LRM boats are enjoying during challenges is minimized.

The best way to do that is to change the challenge scoring calc as follows:

(solo kills * X)+(assists * Y)+((damage on enemy-team damage-((LRM damage/Z)/15))

I think this sort of formula would allow LRM users to still get their high assist count, which usually by itself guarantees a challenge point, plus, prevent giving ANYONE (LRM user, gauss user, bullet hose build, 6 flamer Jenner) from taking a kill point for a 'mech they didn't do the most damage on, plus since the people providing targeting information for indirect fire get NO damage credit towards their score, it at least subtracts a portion of the LRM damage the LRM boats get from their indirect fire.

I think this is the most balanced approach to the REAL issue.

[damonwolf]

Several people went through this with you yesterday Dimento. Having separate scoring rules for different weapon systems just for Challenges...no...just no.

[CrushLibs]

LRMs are fine but you should be able to use cover thus change the flight angles.

[Monkey Lover]

lrms need a buff 9% nerf was way to much.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 27 November 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[Saobh]

Dimento Graven, on 27 November 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

All of you actually have missed the point, some of you have purposely not comprehended some of my previous points.

... [read his whole post up there]

Thing is taking into account damage is not necessarily a good indicator too. Good players doing pinpoint damage on vital CT or torsos can in fact be the top contributors to a team win while in fact doing less damage then others who spread their shots on fully armored parts or blowing weaponless arms ...

But as people like to look at how much damage they've done they kinda have to count it.

Frankly just use the current scoring system and ignore the kill + assist + damage ones. But in that case I'm not sure it'll be easily readable for lots of players and probably still going to have issues with people finding the best way to gain the system.

Edited by Saobh, 27 November 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[PappySmurf]

We need a new poll on what to rename MWO too.

Vote #1 Missile Tard Online
Vote #2 Focus Fire Online
Vote #3 Meek Warrior Online
Vote #4 Free2Pay Online
Vote #5 Cheese Mech Online
Vote #6 Turkey Shoot Online
Vote #7 Battle Boring Online
Vote #8 Grind Me A River Online
Vote #9 Cry Baby Warrior Online
Vote #10 Fool Warrior Online

P.S please feel free to add your own name changes to the list.

[damonwolf]

I always liked Turret Warrior Online (TWO) when teams were turtling after Turrets came out.

[zortesh]

Dimento Graven, on 27 November 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

All of you actually have missed the point, some of you have purposely not comprehended some of my previous points.

I'll lay everything out again:

1. LRMs, in normal drop situations are fine.

They don't require a lot of skill to do well with, and if the pilot has moderate skill they can be quite deadly.

In normal drop situations where you have only 2 or 3 "support mechs" dropping per side per match, no issues.

The bad luck resulting in teams all geared one way is a problem with mwo in general and not just lrms, facing a team thats all ppcs/guass is way less fun then a team thats all lrms.

Not to mentiuon massed er larges or the "lol every mech here has srms CHARGE!".

Dimento Graven, on 27 November 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

2. The use of/boating of LRMs, during challenges increases SIGNIFICANTLY. To the point where we go from 2 or 3 support 'mechs per side per drop to upwards of 8 or more per side, per drop.

This is because of the facts of point 1, namely LRMs don't require a lot of skill to do well, and when you do have skill they can be quite ugly. For the typical challenge score calc:

(kills * x)+(assists * y)+((damage on enemy-damage on team)/15)

It becomes very easy to get high score due to it being easy to get LOTS of assists with LRMs since you can utilize your teammate's target locks, NARCs, TAGs, UAVs, et al, taking advantage of indirect fire and due to the fact that MOST people when loading LRMs load over a 1000 missiles, the potential for easily dealing HIGH DAMAGE in a match is significant.

LRMS are easy mode. Anyone who can't accept this fact is lying to themselves to the detriment of their own game play, but that's their personal decision.

Lrms are only easy mode if your enemies are bad, guass rifles are easy mode in truth, and they kick ass on every map, whereas lrms range from good to near useless depending on the map.

I see it like this, sniping is super easy mode, lrming is easy to medium or hard, depending on the drop and the map, you might get 5 ecm mechs on crimson straits on the enemy team afterall.... brawling... brawling is hard mode, unless you have a 12man of all brawlers then its piss easy i win mode.

Dimento Graven, on 27 November 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

3. LRM boat pilots, when most effective are utilizing friendly targeting information as mentioned above, and are getting a 'free ride' on other people's efforts.

Hence the propensity for people to gravitate towards using LRMs.

The challenges can be difficult and can take a while to complete, and of course, everyone wants their 'cookie' RIGHT ******* NOW!!!

Lrms are most effective when fired at narced targets, they are best when self narcing from a lrmboat.

Ordinary player locks are terrible unless from a dedicated spotter, if your getting murdered by lrms fired at ordinary locks your doing something wrong, consider how easy it is pop out, fire, break los and let the misisles be wasted.

If your a brawler lrms are more of a problem i guess, but snipers get it easy again, since they can engage from beyond lrm range, or just from far enough away that they have time to break lock at their leisure.

Dimento Graven, on 27 November 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

4. I'll repeat this portion from point one over again: LRMs, in of themselves, do not need to be nerfed. They are working fine as is. What we really need is to change the challenge scoring calcs such that the free ride most LRM boats are enjoying during challenges is minimized.

The best way to do that is to change the challenge scoring calc as follows:

(solo kills * X)+(assists * Y)+((damage on enemy-team damage-((LRM damage/Z)/15))

I think this sort of formula would allow LRM users to still get their high assist count, which usually by itself guarantees a challenge point, plus, prevent giving ANYONE (LRM user, gauss user, bullet hose build, 6 flamer Jenner) from taking a kill point for a 'mech they didn't do the most damage on, plus since the people providing targeting information for indirect fire get NO damage credit towards their score, it at least subtracts a portion of the LRM damage the LRM boats get from their indirect fire.

I think this is the most balanced approach to the REAL issue.

The mech spotting does get infinitely stack-able spotting assists which are worth cbills even if there not in challenges anymore as a way to score.

Your system would make lrms useless for getting high scores in tourneys, but still leave them as the goto thing for regular challenges...

They could abandon the kill aissts thing and do something using there new cbill giving thingies they added a lil while back.

(most damage kill * Z)+ (flanking * X)+(formation combat * Y)+(damage on enemy-team damage)


Or even give us a brawler weekend thing.

(mech protection * Z)+ (brawling * X)+(formation combat * Y)+(damage on enemy-team damage)

We dont nessarily need to be slaved to the kill and assists idea.

[Clownwarlord]

First off I go to vote and it gives me the lovely error page:

So I will give my answer here. Yes there are too many lrms, but that is not what you think I mean. What I mean is lrms are suppose to be heavily used, and in the battle tech universe (from reading the books) the majority of the mechs that could did take them. Now that I got that out of the way lrms are over powering in solo and sometimes in group play.

I also believe AMS needs a buff, LRMs and streaks should lose lock when line of sight is lost (not to be mistake cross hairs on the target, I mean out of visual as in not in your window view or even behind you), and lastly that there should be modules introduced that increase time it takes to get a lock on to you.

There are so many items in the game that speed up locking targets that maybe there should be modules that do the opposite (other then the selective few ECM mechs). There should be other modules or components that you can place in your mech that disrupt target information and locks other then just one, the ECM. At current state, ECM is almost a necessary to play the game because lrms are so powerful to use in their ease in use and that there are so many things out there to boost them:

- Targeting Computer
- BAP
- Tag
- Narc
- Friendly mechs spotting
- Target Retention
- Advanced Sensor Range

Here is a list of anti-lrms:

- ECM
- AMS
- Radar Deprivation

Outside of that their is terrain but that goes both ways because it is able to be used to protect the lrm mech just as much the enemy mech being shot.

*If you want you could add other modules to both lists but these are what I could remember off the top of my head.
*This also hopefully will be taken into account more so in developing electronic warfare which Paul I has talked in very basic or non-descriptive terms with NGNG in pod cast. So has Russ but again in very non-descriptive terms.
** non-descriptive - http://dictionary.re.../nondescriptive - in basic term not really informative or not much information their or given

Edited by clownwarlord, 27 November 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[damonwolf]

Quote

LRMs and streaks should lose lock when line of sight is lost

LRMs DO lose lock when LoS is broken unless the LRM Mech uses the Target Decay module. If the target Mech has the Radar Deprivation module, it overrides the Target Decay Module.

[zortesh]

clownwarlord, on 27 November 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

First off I go to vote and it gives me the lovely error page:

So I will give my answer here. Yes there are too many lrms, but that is not what you think I mean. What I mean is lrms are suppose to be heavily used, and in the battle tech universe (from reading the books) the majority of the mechs that could did take them. Now that I got that out of the way lrms are over powering in solo and sometimes in group play.

I also believe AMS needs a buff, LRMs and streaks should lose lock when line of sight is lost (not to be mistake cross hairs on the target, I mean out of visual as in not in your window view or even behind you), and lastly that there should be modules introduced that increase time it takes to get a lock on to you.

There are so many items in the game that speed up locking targets that maybe there should be modules that do the opposite (other then the selective few ECM mechs). There should be other modules or components that you can place in your mech that disrupt target information and locks other then just one, the ECM. At current state, ECM is almost a necessary to play the game because lrms are so powerful to use in their ease in use and that there are so many things out there to boost them:

- Targeting Computer
- BAP
- Tag
- Narc
- Friendly mechs spotting
- Target Retention
- Advanced Sensor Range

Here is a list of anti-lrms:

- ECM
- AMS
- Radar Deprivation

Outside of that their is terrain but that goes both ways because it is able to be used to protect the lrm mech just as much the enemy mech being shot.

*If you want you could add other modules to both lists but these are what I could remember off the top of my head.
*This also hopefully will be taken into account more so in developing electronic warfare which Paul I has talked in very basic or non-descriptive terms with NGNG in pod cast. So has Russ but again in very non-descriptive terms.
** non-descriptive - http://dictionary.re.../nondescriptive - in basic term not really informative or not much information their or given

Targeting computer does nothing for lrms, it makes target info gathering faster, which is completely separate from lrm lock speed.

Sensor range isn't actually terribly useful, sensors can pickup mechs at like 750 meterish? firing lrms beyond 700 meters is basically throwing them away unless your opponent is incompetent to otherwise already screwed anyway.... its useful on alpine and alpine alone.

terrain does favor directfire on most of the maps, on some maps, hpg and crimson you can easily be in clear los of a missileboat and have them completely incapable of hitting you with lrms.

And lets look at ecm and radar deprivation... both completely negate locking...... in comparison to bonuses that limit out at 75% faster locks and 75% better tracking.

Edited by zortesh, 27 November 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Ahri-the-Fox]

use AMS; ECM or try it the old way....
get out of the LOS and Firing line...
never have any problems with LRM, since that nice female voice tells when i'm about to be hit...
i hide behind a building and Tada... all lrm just go poof on someone elses floor.

and if i'm stupid enough to go out in the open...
well serves me right to get spanked by lrm.

play smart, stay in cover, no problem with LRM

on the contrary you can start making polls in the forum

[CrushLibs]

fix the flight angle just got my DW with 50 leg armor legged to my death with my CT and Core barely yellow.

This BS sweeping action and dive angle NEEDS TO BE FIXED

[Kyle Lewis]

Poll will not allow a no vote, because it wants a response to the second portion.

[Dimento Graven]

damonwolf, on 27 November 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Several people went through this with you yesterday Dimento. Having separate scoring rules for different weapon systems just for Challenges...no...just no.

Yes, and all those people were responding emotionally with little to zero thought on the subject, defending tooth and nail, their free rides during the challenges.

Their arguments were so incredibly bad all they've done is cemented my view point on this.

Namely, because (at least as far as I can figure from the documentation I've been able to find so far) targeting/TAG'ing/NARC'ing/UAV'ing information YOU provide the LRM boats/users doesn't add to YOUR score, add ZERO to your own challenge scores, we already have "separate scoring rules for different weapon systems".

Now, if the LRM damage done that's a result of the targeting/TAG/NARC/UAV, and I got assists for providing that information even IF I didn't do any damage to the 'mech, I might think a little differently, however, why should anyone get a 'free ride'?

[Saobh]

With that logic :
The guy with the ECM covering your arse from LRM rain as well as letting your team surprise the enemy flank doesn't get anything for helping you. So why should he help you get a 'free ride' getting up and close to make those kills ?

Rinse and repeat with the BAP, or the light who spent his time scouting your flank for enemy flanking maneuvers. Or the guy who actually pressed R during his brawl with an enemy letting you in advance know that there is an enemy after that corner with an open back CT ...

Ever thought you might also be a "free rider" in your own way ?

[damonwolf]

Quote

Their arguments were so incredibly bad all they've done is cemented my view point on this.

In your opinion only.
Let me put it to you in a way that, hopefully, you will get...
You're proposing having different scoring rules for a weapon system you don't like or use. Implementing a system like that would penalize pilots for using a weapon system that is widely used and even promoted by the Devs (Most new Mechs are muti-LRM capable, Role Warfare, etc.) would be wrong. Implementing punitive measures against a weapon system purely because some people don't like, approve of, or use in other words. In simpler terms, a game of Rock, Paper Scissors, but penalizing someone for choosing scissors.
It's a slippery slope. Why? What happens when penalizing people reduces LRM usage and people start b!tching about Gauss, PPC, Wubs, etc. in Challenges/Tournaments? YOUR weapons systems start getting a penalty...

Let's face it Dimento, you're a sniper (paper). LRMs are a counter (scissors) to your efforts, so you want them reduced because they inhibit your ability to achieve god mode.
Funny how most people that complain about LRMs in Forums are other new, bad or their game play is countered by LRMs...odd that.

Edited by damonwolf, 27 November 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[Viges]

Ok I noticed the core pattern of lrms threads.

Being killed by lasers, acs, srms? Np. Being killed by lrms once in 10 matches? OMG I'M GOING TO THE FORUMS AND WHINE ABOUT LRMS.

LRMS = unfair. Because logic *aliens*

[Dimento Graven]

Saobh, on 27 November 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

With that logic :
The guy with the ECM covering your arse from LRM rain as well as letting your team surprise the enemy flank doesn't get anything for helping you. So why should he help you get a 'free ride' getting up and close to make those kills ?

Rinse and repeat with the BAP, or the light who spent his time scouting your flank for enemy flanking maneuvers. Or the guy who actually pressed R during his brawl with an enemy letting you in advance know that there is an enemy after that corner with an open back CT ...

Ever thought you might also be a "free rider" in your own way ?

Well unfortunately for your ECM example, I've not really run into anyone who understands that equipping ECM is intended to benefit the team. Nope, 39 times out of 40 the ECM 'mech is some light 'mech setup for KS'ing... I mean sniping, and so he runs off the in the first 5 seconds of the fight, never to be seen from again, depriving me and the rest of my team of any benefit from ECM.

Currently most of the Atlai I've seen in the game have been of the RS, K, and BH variety, incapable of equipping ECM, hell, I've even run across a few DDC's that didn't have ECM. However, by the logic of the other nay sayers apparently I don't even "need" ECM, I just need to not be seen or "dodge" the incoming missiles, they seem to be indicating that ECM has little to no value.

HOWEVER, in the interest of fairness and now that you've made me think about it a bit, I think when the challenge scoring criteria includes "you must survive", at the end of the match any ECM 'mech still standing should receive extra points for any other non-ECM'd 'mech also still standing.