15 replies to this topic

[Sigmar Sich]

Cause: SHS are useless, players choose DHS most of the times, unless on very cold builds.
Goal: Make more interesting heatsink balance, and give SHS a tiny chance to be chosen. But not to mess up current balance.
How: Separate heatcapacity and heat dissipation values.

As for now - 1 SHS have 1 heatcapacity and 1 dissipation rates, and 1 DHS have both 1.4, unless it is internal heatsink for engine, then it have 2.

Lets see what happens if change this values. SHS stays with 1 capacity and 1 dissipation. DHS changes to 1 capacity and 2 dissipation, for both engine-internal and external heatsinks (It seems DHS gains more then loses (loses +- 28% of capacity and gains +- 42% dissipation), but if keep in mind fully doubled heatsinks in engine - which now are same as non-engine heatsinks - things stayed balanced).
Lets take for example Awesome, as classic hot mech.
Lets use default weapons, and try to install as many SHS and DHS as we can (within reason)
Mechs have base heatcapacity 30, and base dissipation 0.
SHS Awesome
This loadout uses 33 SHS, which gains it total 63 heatcapacity (+33) and 3.3 h/s dissipation (1 dissipation is 0.1 heat per second cooling). Its not changes with suggested rebalance.
DHS Awesome
This loadout uses 22 DHS, which gains it total 66.8 (+36.8) heatcapacity and 3.68 h/s dissipation. It is just totally better then SHS, and even saved weight for good engine.
With suggested heatsink rebalanse values would be: 52 (+22) heatcapacity and 4.4 h/s dissipation. It seems we messed up heat balance, but no - rebalanced DHS build loses near 22.1% of total heatcapacity, and gains near 19.5% additional cooling. And now SHS build would have bit more total capacity then DHS (+17.4%), but DHS have better heat dissipation (25%).
So SHS still losing (as they should, why should they beat 1.5 mill upgrade ), but now not that shamefully.

And i didnt forget about clans, they just dont have SHS, but overall DHS performance mostly the same (you lose a bit capacity, but gain better cooling), and keep in mind Clan DHS occupies 1 less slot then IS DHS, so you can load them bit more than IS

Conclusion: setting heatcapacity values 1 for both SHS and DHS, and heat dissipation 1 for SHS and 2 for DHS : 1) not messes much with overall heat balance 2) providing some interesting differences between SHS and DHS 3) gets us honest Double heatsinks.

PS I hope i didnt mistake in calculations

Update, step 2

Sigmar Sich, on 29 November 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Further adjustments to heatsink rebalance

Cause: Mech's base heatcapacity prevents heatsinks' heatcapacity to influence heat management.
Goal: Make total heatcapacity more dependent from heatsink quantity.
How: Lower base heatcapacity and increase heatsinks' heatcapacity.

Mechs base heatcapacity set to 10 (instead of 30), and both SHS and DHS heatcapacity set to 2 (instead of suggested 1 for both) per heatsink. (Totally dismiss base heatcapacity can break some builds with low heatsinks quantity, it should be avoided)
Lets recalculate our examples.
SHS Awesome gets 10 + 66 = 76 total heatcapacity, DHS Awesome gets 10 + 44 = 54 total heatcapacity.
As we see, SHS build increased its total heatcapacity advantage twice (from 21% to 40%). And DHS build's total heatcapacity wasnt affected (3% increase).
But keep in mind this builds highly packed with heatsinks. How this changes will affect builds with less heatsinks? It would decrease minimal heatcapacity (for 10 heatsinks) to 30 for both SHS and DHS (instead 40 and 45-50 for SHS and DHS respectively). Though it is compensated with higher dissipation rates for DHS; and SHS mostly comes in bigger numbers.
How it could affect total heatmanagement
For DHS - capacity loses should be noticeable. You cant spam huge alphas in constant salvos, but you cool faster, and total shots per time shouldnt be decreased.
For SHS - when used in numbers, they have nicely bigger heatcapacity, which can be used for some periods of intense fire, though such bursts will need long rest.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 29 November 2014 - 06:29 AM.

[happy mech]

it is true that the single heatsinks are not very competitive, i like the idea that they gave something different for the more of them equipped, however the real damage is the heat dissipation, heat capacity is not a factor if you cannot cool down

[Sigmar Sich]

It is so. Idea needs more calculations for different DHS quantities builds, to be sure DHS didnt become even better because of additional dissipation, when used in big numbers. But for 10-16 DHS builds, where more than half heatsinks already have double dissipation (and capacity) lost capacity should equalize small dissipation gain. It should keep heat management at same levels, maybe cause more sustained fire, not huge alphas spam
And SHS have nothing to lose

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 28 November 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[happy mech]

i love how this game tries to keep balance in everything, clan vs is, mech variants amongst each other, equipment (ok ecm is still a topic, but now bap is a very good intermediary to soften the field for major overhaul if it is still considered too strong)

i remember that when i was leveling a mech with shs, it was either speed or ability to fire the systems (or move faster throttle and reduce heat dissipation)
with shs it is more of a thinking contest, attacks of opportunity are not so often because you may need the heat for more important hit, maneuvering and tactics play a much bigger role as individual cannot do so much so fast
with dhs you do not plan where to retreat or which mech component may help in the longer battle, you plan to keep your aim at ct until one mech is destroyed

i like the shs system more, i bet even ghost heat could be dropped if the dhs and shs were remade (like alternatives, and of comparable cost also)
for example, padding a weapon with heatsinks makes it cool better, heatsinks in the same component could give a little exponential bonus to dissipation or capacity, the heatcapacity or dissipation could increase logarithmically rather than linearily, heatsinks in engine may have reduced performance when moving at full throttle, etc

just some ideas

[OznerpaG]

was thinking the exact same thing yesterday Sigmar - SHS more heat capacity for less dissipation, DHS for less heat capacity but more heat dissipation

make perfect sense

[Firewuff]

To be blunt its a bad idea. We had 2.0 heatsinks in the open beta and you litterally could not overheat some common builds so capacity became irrelevant. You end up with more high alpha builds because all the heat is gone faster than you can fire with large weapons. 2.0 disapation just doesnt work even 1.6 was pretty stupidly fast

[Nothing Whatsoever]

This could work if we would not start with the value of 30 plus accumulated HS's. So it is something I'd look into, but we'd need to check up on the math since dissipation is active over time in matches.

And Dissipation is giving us Capacity over time as it is. So with quirks available I'd rather try keeping the initial value of 30 to where I'd reduce HS capacity to 0.1 for both SHS and DHS.

The effect is 10 SHS or DHS only then boost by 1 so that a Mechs' capacity of 10 SHS/DHS would be 31, 20 SHS/DHS would be a Heat capacity of 32 and so on.

So that should be compared against weapon Alphas, for example using this on a HBK-4P taking on 19 DHS gives it a Capacity of 31.9 and a Dissipation of 3.8 before Mech Tree/Quirks are factored.

So it can Alpha 6 MLs for 24 heat, after Mech Tree and Quirks are factored in it seems like 7 ML can be alpha'd.

Basically such an idea is to reduce Alphas while providing a trade-off for more endurance/stamina through dissipation.

---

Nonetheless another thing to look at is to have differences between SHS and DHS. Where SHS could allow for Higher Alphas against DHS with better dissipation.

So say SHS would keep the value of 1 while DHS would change to 0.1?

28 SHS would give 58.0 Capacity and 2.8 Dissipation
28 DHS would give 32.8 Capacity and 5.6 Dissipation

It probably would need to see further tweaks and testing (such as having SHS provide 0.5 or 0.2 instead of 1.0), but that is more where I'd look to, if the idea is to provide tradeoffs between SHS and DHS.

[Dreadp1r4te]

I agree with some of this, but the main thing that needs to be addressed is their back-pedaling on the subject of boating weapons. They stated openly that one reason they didn't give us 2.0 DHS is that they didn't want to see 'Mechs boating lasers, like Jenners and Hunchbacks, but then they turn around and add quirks to those very 'Mechs to allow them to do exactly that, forcing meta builds. I'd like to see DHS buffed overall just on the premise that it will allow people more flexibility in loadouts. This is going to be very important come CW, because of the larger engagement ranges.

[Pz_DC]

Agree about shs - it need any buff. They save space, true, but those days noone care about it...

[Sigmar Sich]

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2.0 disapation just doesnt work even 1.6 was pretty stupidly fast

And yet we have +- half (at least) fully doubled DHS in every build (engine internal heatsinks). For DHS Awesome in example average dissipation rate is 1.67 per heatsink. And most build doesn have so much DHS, so average dissipation can be even higher for them (i'd say between 1.75 and 1.85). So, suggested DHS rebalance wouldnt be huge change. But yes, idea needs some further adjustments.

Quote

This could work if we would not start with the value of 30 plus accumulated HS's.

True. Though i had in mind a bit different mechanism to change it.

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main thing that needs to be addressed is their back-pedaling on the subject of boating weapons

True. Hopefully, some further changes can cause more chainfire, rather then alpha spam.

So. Further adjustments to heatsink rebalance

Cause: Mech's base heatcapacity prevents heatsinks' heatcapacity to influence heat management.
Goal: Make total heatcapacity more dependent from heatsink quantity.
How: Lower base heatcapacity and increase heatsinks' heatcapacity.

Mechs base heatcapacity set to 10 (instead of 30), and both SHS and DHS heatcapacity set to 2 (instead of suggested 1 for both) per heatsink. (Totally dismiss base heatcapacity can break some builds with low heatsinks quantity, it should be avoided)
Lets recalculate our examples.
SHS Awesome gets 10 + 66 = 76 total heatcapacity, DHS Awesome gets 10 + 44 = 54 total heatcapacity.
As we see, SHS build increased its total heatcapacity advantage twice (from 21% to 40%). And DHS build's total heatcapacity wasnt affected (3% increase).
But keep in mind this builds highly packed with heatsinks. How this changes will affect builds with less heatsinks? It would decrease minimal heatcapacity (for 10 heatsinks) to 30 for both SHS and DHS (instead 40 and 45-50 for SHS and DHS respectively). Though it is compensated with higher dissipation rates for DHS; and SHS mostly comes in bigger numbers.
How it could affect total heatmanagement
For DHS - capacity loses should be noticeable. You cant spam huge alphas in constant salvos, but you cool faster, and total shots per time shouldnt be decreased.
For SHS - when used in numbers, they have nicely bigger heatcapacity, which can be used for some periods of intense fire, though such bursts will need long rest.


I'd say now heatsinks rebalance is a succes.
DHS are still better, but SHS can find some use.

[happy mech]

Praetor Knight, on 28 November 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:
text



good idea, some scenario
shs and dhs both give 0.1 capacity, also upgrade cost is the same, shs give 0.1 dissipation for 1 slot, dhs 0.14 (engine too) for 3 slots
multiple heatsinks in single component give bonuses to capacity (and/or dissipation)
this way you can get heavier single heatsinks for more capacity (because you can fit more into a component for bigger bonus) or lighter but not so small dhs for better dissipation (and save the weight too)

the bonus could cap at X heat (for example, 12), with exponential progression (the more you have the stronger every one is)

so, a hunchback with 12 shs in side torso will have 30 + 1.2 + 12 = 43.2 heatcapacity, (10 + 12)*0.1 = 2.2 heat dissipation, for 12 tons
a hunchback with 4 dhs in side torso and 2 in each arm (8 total) will have 30 + 0.8 + 2 (from bonus) = 32.8 heatcapacity and (10 + 8)*0.14 = 2.52 heat dissipation, for 8 tons

what do you think?

[Nightmare1]

Frankly, I like the current set-up for Heat Sinks and don't see a need to change it. Why waste resources fixing something that's not broken?

[Koniving]

happy mech, on 28 November 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

it is true that the single heatsinks are not very competitive, i like the idea that they gave something different for the more of them equipped, however the real damage is the heat dissipation, heat capacity is not a factor if you cannot cool down

Just to mention it, the source material:

13 DHS mech.
30 threshold, 2.6 cooling.

What we currently have thanks to the skills that we can unlock, despite having 10 engine DHS and 3 1.4 DHS:
Cooling Rate : 2.78 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 65.04

See an issue?

Here is what the results would be, with the full elites, with the proposal I just read.
Cooling Rate : 2.98 heat/sec
Heat Threshold: 51.6 (43 + 20%).

Comparison: SHS
Cooling Rate : 1.49 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 51.6

Note: To find MWO threshold...
30 + (Engine DHS *2) + (manually added DHS *1.4) = Threshold. For basics: (Threshold + 10%). For elites: (threshold + 20%).

To find threshold after the proposed changes: 30 + (DHS added *1) = threshold. For basics: (Threshold + 10%). For elites: (threshold + 20%).

Basically this means DHS would actually be close to DHS, and not super alpha strike enablers.

All that DHS would mean is a faster firing rate, and not a bigger alpha strike.

Edited by Koniving, 29 November 2014 - 06:58 AM.

[Nightmare1]

And bigger Alphas are a bad thing?

Overall, this whole discussion is really just about shifting things up or down a bit. Even if DHS got nerfed, I still don't see any advantages to using SHS because of DHS' increased cooling rate. It just wouldn't make sense, even if you were a fan of high Alphas.

With regard to that, I would rather see my DHS remain unmolested. I'd happily sacrifice .2 in my cooling rate for an increase of about 14 to my heat cap (if I'm reading Koniving's post correctly).

[Sigmar Sich]

Quote

Frankly, I like the current set-up for Heat Sinks and don't see a need to change it. Why waste resources fixing something that's not broken?

Because it IS broken. Even DHS themselves are broken, with OP internal heatsinks. Bandages and crutches of crude nerf was necessary at the time, but better to fix things properly.

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Even if DHS got nerfed, I still don't see any advantages to using SHS because of DHS' increased cooling rate.

They not nerfed, they just become a bit different. As for SHS, they could not become real alternative for DHS (because they are mostly default equipment, and DHS are costly upgrade), but in some cases, they could become an option, when trying save space, but having free weight because of XL engine, etc. Or maybe for some really hot alphas, big number of SHS could take it, if you need to make few salvos without pauses..

Quote

With regard to that, I would rather see my DHS remain unmolested. I'd happily sacrifice .2 in my cooling rate for an increase of about 14 to my heat cap

Want huge heatcapacity - boat SHS, want more balanced heatcapacity and fast cooling - use DHS. When DHS provide both superior heatcapacity, cooling rate and weight saving, and SHS are totally useless - this is not balance.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 29 November 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[OznerpaG]

is it just me, or is heat capacity an arbitrary number that PGI made up when designing MWO to give bonus heat tolerance the more you add heat sinks? because if it is, at a very basic level that whole logic is flawed and i never ever understood why it was never examined in more detail and adjusted once the game was launched

i always thought that every single mech should have the same heat capacity no matter what, and adding more heat sinks would just allow you to clear your fixed heat capacity faster. the fact that they thought that adding more heat sinks should also increase your own heat capacity ceiling is strange in itself, but then the fact they designed DHS to give more heat capacity than SHS (could be wrong - going by the Awesome design in the OP) is mind boggling. it could be an IGP leftover from where they may have wanted to suck as much CB/MC out of us

a lot of the fun of playing this game is mapping out all your different loadout options in smurfy's to come up with the best possibilities. making DHS the ONLY option throws away a lot of options and turns something that could be a choice into something that's a no brainer, and choices make for a more interesting game

i hope PGI looks into this and makes SHS a perfectly viable option in the future