444 replies to this topic

[Project_Mercy]

All IS mechs are functionally 3058 versions, since you can throw XL, Ferro-Fibrous and Endo Steel on them. Conversely, all the clan mechs are stuck with whatever odd Fluff-based build they're cooked into it, now including the JJs. So, it's not much surprise that the mechs with FF and Endo baked in (heavy down) and the 100 ton WITHOUT FF and ES (because SLOTS!) are the best of breed.

It's pretty easy to compute the effectiveness of most mechs, because there's a distinct force multiplier for certain clan components. Unfortunately, instead of saying "you average XX ton mech can deliver YY alpha and ZZ DPS at the appropriate range" never comes into account. Instead we just (apparently arbitrarily?) assigned mechs to certain "tiers" and you ended up with some mechs getting useful quirks (weapon cooldown and heat reduction) and other mechs getting useless (or of minimal worth) quirks (any of hte ballistic velocity, or burn time changes, etc). It's why things like the Flame are still complete and total garbage.

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, CW is just going to be TBR, SCR, HBR, DWF and then something to fill in the gap, like MLX. So either quirks need to be improved across the board (outisde of maybe the 5SS, 1N, 9A) and also in the "other" clan mechs, or CW is stil going to be strongly clan biased.

[Gauvan]

I can see a couple ways to look at the question.

One approach would be to rank the mechs in each weight class and see which side sits on top of the lists. I’d argue that it’s balanced from that perspective for while the Clans might arguably have a top mech in ¾ of the classes the next few mechs are all going to be IS, and outside heavies the gap isn’t much.

Another way to think about the problem is to mentally graph the overall power of each weight class for each side. I think the Clan graph would be bell-shaped--Clans are strong in the middle (med and heavy) and less so at the ends (light and assault). Mostly due to the large number of mechs to pick from, I’d say the IS is more like a horizontal line that is lower than the peak of the Clan graph. From this perspective, I think they are both fairly balanced as they have a similar area under their curves.

Another way to look at it would be to come up with a ‘dream team’ of each side and evaluate their capability against the other. My feeling is the Clans come out on top by this comparison, mostly because of speed. We haven’t seen the Gargoyle yet, but the Clan lineup is so strong in the medium and heavy weight class that I find the idea of a whole team moving 70-80kph is pretty scary. The ‘weaker’ Clan lights aren’t really a hindrance if they are performing in a strictly support role.

Of the three approaches I think the third is the most useful from a real-world perspective. I do think that in organized teams the optimed Clan team has a slight on paper advantage, but one within the ability of skilled play to overcome.

That’s my .02 MC.

[WarHippy]

Honestly, having not played my Clan mechs in awhile up until this week I would give it to the IS by a narrow margin. Heat efficiency and over all feel just isn't there for the Clans right now when compared to a lot of the IS mechs. The only two Clan mechs right now I would say are in a good spot are the Timberwolf and Stormcrow. The rest are just plain mediocre or bad.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rossario x Vampire, on 29 November 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

Probably OP is unaware that most of IS mechs are insta-nerfed by adding some silly stuff like some "joints" in some body parts and can't even use nearly equivalent tonnage of fire power as clans. And after JJ's nerf IS mechs are become an just random walking garbage with random amount of hardpoints.

I'm not trying to compare MadCat with IS heavies cause he is uncompareable. Clear 40+ tons of weapons equal to top IS assault moving "in stock" 81kmph is just nothing to compare. "Suckoner" is the only fast moving "zombie" except Tunderwub-5SS, but "Suckoner" can fly, TDR can't. Mobility does matter. C-LRM20 despite of "shovering" throw also is nearly twice precisle than LRM20. There is just no IS assault mech who can "frontload" more than 52 damage superfiring. What about clans? Yes, "eye" can! Just SCR-PRIME/2C can mount nearly 70+ "frontloaded" weapons superfiring and do 3xsemi-alpha before shotdown, which means 210 damage pinpoint. Does any IS heavy or assault can do this, and I'm not talking about mediums.

Oh poor clan lights. Especially "badder" ot "OP-Fox". 2, 3 or 4x C-LPL with each 13 damage and range 1200 metres allow ya to camp "a *****" or "camp-tart" anything beeing safe from LURM's. You didn't know? Oh dear... might be you just don't have a Clan-Mech that's why you make such adorable dumb topics.

Clan mechs are still 2/3 OP compare to IS mechs. But, if you don't know how to cook them, leave them alone.

P.S. There is no more inferrior thing than SCR-PRIME with 5xC-SPL+2xC-LPL which can whipe any brawl azz. Fo-Sho.

Probably you didn't read the OP, also, the OP has been playing since CB. Is well aware of the nuances, thx, tho.

Perhaps next time actually read the post, but thank you for proving my opening comment correct.

[Kiiyor]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

This should be a fun debate, since I fully expect 50% of answers to be kneejerk...

KNEEJERK!

I think certain gaps have been both closed and opened, as evidenced by the GREATEST CHART EVER CREATED below:

As you can see, the embiggening of the gap between the worst Clan mechs and the best of the 'Sphere (z) has grown, while the gaps between the worst of both factions (x) and the best (y) has been closed somewhat - though it's worth noting that the Clan riders of the apocalypse thrice (Crow, Dire and Cat) still maintain a healthy lead over just about everything.

EDIT: SWEET TAP-DANCING JEHOVAH, I think I can make this chart for real!

Edited by Kiiyor, 29 November 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Equalizer]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

...

So...where do the Clan Mechs REALLY stack up vs the IS. If the Server was set Clan vs IS tomorrow, but the TWolf was unavailable, would the results STILL favor the clans? If not, is it the Clans that are stronger, or 1-3 chassis that need addressing? Are Clan Quirks the answer, or relaxing general Clan weapon nerfs, and focusing some specific nerfs on the offending chassis?

So....debate.

IS mechs are clearly superior by far. Yeah. Just look at all those OP Dragons n' stuff running around, killing all sorts of wolves and crows by the score...

Seriously though, I think almost every mech can do fine as long as you play it smart and know its strengths and weaknesses. In the Victor challenge for example I played almost exclusively with my YLW and routinely used to kill all sorts of clanners 1 vs. 1. That doesn't mean it's better than TW or Dire, but rather that I picked my fights very carefully to give me an edge over my opponent (like fighting among buildings, pumping two AC20 rounds in his face between his alphas, etc.)

Admittedly I don't have much hands-on experience with clan mechs as I only have lights and mediums, but these definitely don't feel sub-par to anything IS mechs can offer. They just play differently and fulfill different roles - for example everyone seems to compare the Mist Lynx with a Commando or a Spider - well it's not anything like them. It is much worse in some situations and much better in others, you just need to adopt a new play style and avoid the former.

I think this is actually the main problem with every new mech - most people can't figure out it is they who need to adapt to achieve good results, but rather expect their new shiny toy to do that for them. Hence the QQ when it doesn't deliver.

Edited by Equalizer, 29 November 2014 - 03:24 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

All I know is that in the hands of a good pilot the timber gives me a workout. The Dire if I walk in front of it. The Stormcrow I don't worry so much. Overall its a good balance though. Just more to learn as I go along and make mistakes.

[InspectorG]

I think part of the problem(which i hope will iron itself out as MWO becomes its 'own' game) is that PGI tried to direct port too much from Battletech.

MWO and BT have different metas for players to min-max towards.

Really, the interaction in CW between resources, factions, battles would hopefully create its own meta that the builds should be based on. Problem is its fairly reverse-engineering an unfinished product.

I mean, take Ferro for example: In MWO its currently useless except on a very few builds.
In BT it got you more armor per ton and COST LESS than Endo to use/repair.

The Meta in MWO as far as fighting is generally boating weapons of the same type or few that synchronize well.
Lazer vomit
AC+SRM
Straight SRM
LRM boats(i puked a little in my mouth, excuse me)
Gauss
Gauss+PPC

BT was more about having a weapon for each range with synergistic overlaps.

There are plenty more examples and other factors than this.

But as far as i can tell, IS gets an advantage in close quarters with lots of terrain - and with lighter mechs. Clan gets range and engine-survival.

How this will play out with more quirk passes and CW...future will tell.

[Diznitch]

It's not about the mechs. It's about the pilots. I find that Clan mechs are harder to pilot to the same performance level as an IS mech. Clan mechs seem to be about on par with fully upgraded IS mechs. IS mechs like my Jester, Atlas DDC, Ember, Raven 3L, Cent AH, are all good mechs still. And I like my ECM spider too. I also like my Stormcrows, Novas, Summoner. Hate the Dire tho. Prob cause I up-engine the DDC so its not as slow.

[DjPush]

Clan or IS... Good pilots = good mechs

[Sjorpha]

Well, if the question is faction balance as in "what will happen in CW clan vs. IS matches?", well then we are talking about more or less optimized dropdecks and clan still has a clear advantage.

If the question is about how good this or that mech in the solo que and mixed teams fare it makes no sense asking it that way, since there is no actual factions there. You have to compare each mech in the game individually and see which ones are competitive or not.

So you have to break it down and look at the different issues.

1. There needs to be balance between the IS and clan competitive metas.

Here I believe the clans are still the ruling class, basically the best IS builds need to match the best clan builds in more than one weight class, and they just don't. The unholy triad is still ahead of any IS medium, heavy or assault. The gap has closed considerably though. The IS dropdecks will have their fast lights to balance things out abit, which is an interesting assymetric balance but I don't think it is quite enough to make the optimal team dropdecks equal.

2. All mechs in the game should be viable choices in CW dropdecks as well as solo que and semi-competitive teams.

Avoiding a somewhat narrow meta in the absolute top tier competitive tournament play is almost impossible, though of course it would be nice to have more variety there too. But all mechs being viable there it is a bit much to ask, I don't even think it can be done. So I won't argue for that. I doubt I will ever be a part of it anyway so I don't care so much about it.

Here there are enormous discrepancies in both IS and Clan. Clearly the IS quirk pass improved the IS side of things, and I'd say the IS now has a little more consistent in viability across the board, but it is only natural that more passes are needed after new metas emerge. Clans need some serious looking into when it comes to consistent viability.

That said, there is a lot of hyperbole about the "bad" clan mechs. Most of them are good compared to IS mechs, just not compared to the triad. The hellbringers CT issues is a confirmed bug so I don't consider it in balance discussions until after the fix, it should be an absolute beast further on with the amazing assymetric builds it can do. The clan small laser/pulse laser have been buffed back into being two of the best weapons in the game, that means the nova is back in business with the 12sl/spl/mg builds. The Myst lynx seem to stand up pretty well to locusts and commandos which is the ones it should be compared to, it is a little weaker perhaps but there is no reason it should be stronger than them. The Ice ferret does look pretty bad for taking a medium slot, but I don't really feel qualified to say. With tonnage instead of weight classes the Ice ferret might just be worth it's 40 tons in some decks. And so on, don't really see any truly DoA mechs there even if some are undoubtly subpar.

3. There needs to be balance between the various types of strategies and dropdecks the factions can use.

Here we have some major issues with the basic gameplay. There are only a few viable approaches to battle, all kinda brute force oriented, and the communication systems are bad. This might play into the IS vs Clan balance depending on what viable strategies emerge for each side. How important of an advantage will the fast IS lights be for example when it comes to allowing more ways to win? How important will the more consistent speeds be for the clans? Hard to say.

[Alexandrix]

If the servers were set to clan vs IS right now,and the TW/SC/DW were locked out....the clans would get utterly smashed.Clan lights can't come close to competing with firestarters,spider, and jenners.The mist lynx and nova would get bent over by shawks and the like.The summoner....well I think we all know where that one stands,although the hellbringer will be a good heavy once it's CT isn't a shot magnet.The warhawk is an ok assault,but the banshee,stalker, and victor are better.Even the frikkin awesome is better at PPC spam than the warhawk now,and just as good at LRM spamming.

Edited by Alexandrix, 29 November 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[Rossario x Vampire]

Equalizer, on 29 November 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

IS mechs are clearly superior by far. Yeah. Just look at all those OP Dragons n' stuff running around, killing all sorts of wolves and crows by the score...

Dragon is OP..... I'd ROFL'd.





or this...

[FETTY WAP]

I really hope the Gargoyle will be half decent.. all of the wave II 'mechs make me sad, save the Hellbringer I guess. I think once they fix the CT bug it'll be a nice mech.

[Heffay]

Need some IS vs Clan matches scheduled to find out.

[bobF]

Why is this even a topic? Pilot performance and build make all the difference in this game, the only consideration is what robot platform to use to make the best builds and/or have good piloting performance. There is no real role warfare in the game, therefore, no obviously discernible flavors or noticeably different abilities from any given mech. You decide how big you want your alpha, how much range you want, and how fast you want to go. The actual mech itself and what faction it belongs to is meaningless. Quirks added some gimmicks for the rubes, perhaps.

I, personally, think clan mechs have a slight edge because of omnipods and generally better energy weapons, but that's it.

[Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 30 November 2014 - 05:09 AM.
Insults - Unconstructive

[Wintersdark]

Clan don't really get a substantial range advantage anymore. CERLL's aren't very good, clan autocannons are pretty much just bad, cERPPC's are a joke - very high heat, long range negated by hellaciously slow projectile speed.

Meanwhile, many IS mechs got substantial range buffs, particularly to their rather efficient Large Lasers.

So, Clans have an excellentech (Timberwolf), a couple good mechs (stormcrow, direwolf) and what will hopefully become a good mech (hellbringer after upcoming CT fix). Also, the Hellbringer competes directly with the Timberwolf - every Hellbringer is one less Timbie.

To the OP, then? Yeah, if you looked at Clans less the Timberwolf alone, I'd say theres a really good argument to be made that they're weak. Take out the Stormcrow and Direwolf, and they'd be in a very, very bad place.

However, this was true from the start, and was why I was deeply nervous about clan weapon nerfs. People cried about OP clans, but it was always a couple clan mechs. With such limited customization, inferior clan mechs are simply inferior.

I'm curious how it'll play out in CW, when players have drop weight limits. This, because the IS has a good selection of very, very strong post-quirkening mediums and light heavies, while the strong clan mechs are also max-tonnage chassis (55, 75, 100t). With a 240t limit and 4 mechs required, clans won't be bringing a lot of Timberwolves and Direwolves to the table.

[InspectorG]

bobF, on 29 November 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

This is an inane forum topic, that will result in no real consensus, provide nothing insightful to the devs, and review a topic that's already discussed to death. It does, however, provide a useful topic for the regular mouthbreathers to stroll in, illustrate how important this game is to their lives and daily relevance, and spout a bunch of theorycrafting that ends up being useless but shows how smart they think they are.

By all means, please carry on.

A winner is you! Great success!
You just described 97% of the treads on this forum.

You win a free Gold Helbie!!!(watch out for those TK's and come back soon!)

[Rossario x Vampire]

bobF, on 29 November 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

I, personally, think clan mechs have a slight edge because of omnipods and generally better energy weapons, but that's it.

This is an inane forum topic, that will result in no real consensus, provide nothing insightful to the devs, and review a topic that's already discussed to death. It does, however, provide a useful topic for the regular mouthbreathers to stroll in, illustrate how important this game is to their lives and daily relevance, and spout a bunch of theorycrafting that ends up being useless but shows how smart they think they are.

By all means, please carry on.

+Thumb up/Like.

[Sjorpha]

bobF, on 29 November 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

This is an inane forum topic, that will result in no real consensus, provide nothing insightful to the devs, and review a topic that's already discussed to death. It does, however, provide a useful topic for the regular mouthbreathers to stroll in, illustrate how important this game is to their lives and daily relevance, and spout a bunch of theorycrafting that ends up being useless but shows how smart they think they are.

And I predict it will also feature some posts by persons who thinks throwing out negative generalizations about vaguely defined groups of people and with fashionably casual cynicism declare the usefulness of it all makes them sound cool or streetsmart or... something.

Do people not realize how stupid and immature it makes them look when they do that? ...Oh wait...

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 November 2014 - 04:14 PM.