444 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 29 November 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

If "gimping yourself" stands for "playing at the level of IS", then sure. Because, apart from the Adder, that's what it works out to.

Most alternatives are under their IS counterparts, actually.

Aside from the big 3.


Loki should be comparable to the Jaeg after the whole arm=CT issue is fixed. I think a 5SS might be better, though. It's also getting a nerf. Unsure how big or disastrous it will be.

[Hillslam]

Make no mistake, the 5SS is about to be ruined, rest assured.

Which is BS, since its goodness is only on the hairy edge.

Edited by Hillslam, 29 November 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[Sjorpha]

bobF, on 29 November 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

The same reason why the Howard Sterns, Bill Hicks, and Eddie Murphys of the world have such foul and obnoxious deliveries. I'm fine with you thinking I'm some immature adult, so long as you understand I think you're a passive-aggressive weakling peasant, who lives in utter fear of critical thinking.

I'm not actually passive agressive, whenever I'm angry at someone I'm open about it. It takes quite a lot for me to get angry though. If you are a practitioner of critical thinking, which would be a good thing, I have yet to see you provide an example of doing it. Perhaps in this post below then...

Quote

The people with two braincells to rub together already posted it for the rest of you: tonnage limit will mitigate either side stacking the most effective robot platforms, and it will again all come down to pilot skill, just like the game we play now with mixed factions vs mixed factions.

I dispute that, the most effective mechs fit well into the dropdeck limit. Player skill is a very important factor, but it is not a factor that evens out metagames. In fact the opposite is true, skill discrepancies have a tendency to act as a multiplier for the metagame. A multiplier that becomes larger the higher the skill, which is why top tier meta of any game is such a knifes edge where microscopic changes have huge consequences.

Quote

It's not rocket science.

No, of course not. To whatever extent there is science involved it would be game theory and psychology.

Quote

You guys don't play a game with enough depth or big enough competitive scene to warrant these microscope discussions; it only serves to alter game balance in all kinds of whacky directions. These forum posts drive the changes in the game that cause mechanics x, y and z to get nerfed, then you guys demand a later change, that make the nerfs to mechanics x, y, and z meaningless. I've seen posts already to undo old weapon nerfs because something else changed. People cheered the magic anti-jesus box, only to then begin bitching about lurms. This game is replete with this kind of band-aid design, driven by fine philosopher kings such as this game's playerbase, because the devs want to keep you happy while selling you some more overpriced mech geometry.

Whatever the truth about it's nature, it is the game we play. In my eyes the balance has, and is, improving. The process is working, not as good as it could because there is so much energy draining whining and rude people who doesn't really seem interested in the game (here for the drama? habit? revenge against PGI?) and that slows it down.

Quote

Ever hear that voice in your head, before you've done or said something stupid, that warns you "hey guy, this thing you're about to do/say is pretty stupid, and will not rationally benefit you at all?" Just think of me as the forum equivalent.

I do, yes. I can't fit you into that role though, it would be super depressing (and therefore irrational to combine with a hobby)

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 November 2014 - 05:43 PM.

[The Boz]

Mcgral18, on 29 November 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

Most alternatives are under their IS counterparts, actually.

Aside from the big 3.

Ahahahahaha!
Please, give me some examples of a Clam being completely outlcassed by an IS "counterpart" outside of the Adder, and the "going 150 in a light" department.

[InspectorG]

Hillslam, on 29 November 2014 - 05:18 PM, said:

Make no mistake, the 5SS is about to be ruined, rest assured.

Which is BS, since its goodness is only on the hairy edge.

Yeah...sad, but i think its coming as well.

"This is why we cant have nice things"

I do hope the Slummoner gets nice quirks. I really prefer it over the twolf.

[Sjorpha]

MrZakalwe, on 29 November 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

He's just a classic internet tough guy- drunk on the power of anonymity, Should be used to those by now.

I am.

Being used to people with various stereotypical behaviour isn't really an argument to not talk to them IMO, that would lead to ignoring most people. And I'm probably typical in some sense as well, wouldn't like that to be a reason to ignore me.

Bishop Steiner, on 29 November 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

forum troll, put the guy on ignore and move on. Eventually when no one is there to listen to their rants, they'll move on.

Now ignoring destructive attitudes might be a strategy, but in my experience it doesn't actually work. It is more likely to be interpreted as silent consent, and with enough repetition becomes normative. This community is an example of a very bad discussion climate, it has bcome that way for a reason. There is no reason this couldn't be reversed and we could have a community where the norm is a bit nicer. Will it be perfect? No, but it doesn't have to be this bad.

But excuse me for derailing your thread Bishop, I won't post more OT stuff.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 November 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 29 November 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

I am.

Being used to people with various stereotypical behaviour isn't really an argument to not talk to them IMO, that would lead to ignoring most people. And I'm probably typical in some sense as well, wouldn't like that to be a reason to ignore me.



Now ignoring destructive attitudes might be a strategy, but in my experience it doesn't actually work. It is more likely to be interpreted as silent consent, and with enough repetition becomes normative. This community is an example of a very bad discussion climate, it has bcome that way for a reason. There is no reason this couldn't be reversed and we could have a community where the norm is a bit nicer. Will it be perfect? No, but it doesn't have to be this bad.

But excuse me for derailing your thread Bishop, I won't post more OT stuff.

I agree in principle, yet some people are consistent in their post that their intent is clear, and thus I feel answering it lends more credence to their post.

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 29 November 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Ahahahahaha!
Please, give me some examples of a Clam being completely outlcassed by an IS "counterpart" outside of the Adder, and the "going 150 in a light" department.

Let's be objective, and compare all the Clam chassis'.

Mist Lynx: At 25 tons, outclassed by nearly every IS light. Lolcust included, up to the 35 tonners(as you would expect). It's slow, has few hardpoints, and easily disarmed.
It can jump nicely.

Cute Fox: 30 tons, Jesus Box capable while losing only 1 E hardpoint; useful. Yes, slow. Can mount a small caliber AC without issues. JJ capable. Also very large for 30 tons. Spider takes advantage, in most cases. Both this and the Lynx lose out on 3 TrueDubs.

Adder: 35 tons, low mounted arms. Can boat missiles pretty nicely, actually. Splatters are a niche which is rivaled only by the Oxide, which does it faster, but with fewer missiles.

Ice Ferret: Fast, only fast Clam there is, presently. Also not the greatest. Limited hardpoints and pod space. BJ is better for 45 tons. Bishop says Vindis are good; I'm not convinced.

Nova: 12 E hardpoints. GIGANTIC arms, big legs, big torsos. Big mech. Although, 50 ton mech's worth of armour. That's not great.
It can't use those E hardpoints efficiently unless you bring 12 200M lasers. 12 extra heat gimped most loadouts.
Given the right circumstances, deadly. At range, dead. Hunchbacks and BJs laserboat better, with lower heat and higher mounts.

DoomCrow: Tier 1. No doubt. It lacks JJs, and that's it(with the given restrictions of omnimechs).

MadDog: 60 tons, opposite problem of the Dragon; tiny CT, huge STs. Dragon has high powered AC5s, this has all the missiles. I prefer the Dakka to the missiles. This one could go either way, I suppose. None are exceedingly great, but neither are bad.

Hellbringer: With a CT fix, so the arm isn't CT. And the ST isn't CT. And the rear isn't CT, this will be better. It gets fewer high mounts than the Jaeger, but has more hardpoint options. Perhaps even on par with the 5SS. Hard to tell without the fix.

Summoner: inferior to the Cataphract, but it can still kinda popsnipe...if you wanted to. High mounted Gauss is nice, only 4 E hardpoints are limiting but usable.
Also boats SRMs nicely. Endo instead of Ferro hurts. 5 hardwired JJs occupy lots of tonnage. Also inferior to the 5SS.

TimberGod: Tier 1, no competition.

Warhawk: Similar enough to the Stalker; missile and energy oriented. It has worse hitboxes and lower mounted hardpoints. Tanks damage worse. Seems to be alright, but slightly worse than the Stalker.

Dire Whale: honestly, I can't classify it Tier 1 due to being so damn slow. But, I won't deny it carries guns. I prefer Banshees to it, and it's often a fair match at short range. It wins most long range engagements, since the mobility means less at distance. We'll see how it compares to an IS chassis that has 4 pieces of Dakka, that moves faster.


So, 3 are better. Six are worse.

That means 3 are comparable. I guess half isn't outrageous.

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 November 2014 - 06:04 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Clans arn't Over-Powered, They may have been Powerful but i think that's changed Now
Why? IS Quirks, now theirs a thing about Quirks i want to point out, they can change,
if a Mech needs more of a buff, their +10% Quirk can easly be changed to +15%,

with this in mind after Clan Quirk pass, and when CW comes out we will get real numbers,
and then we will see how both sides stack up as well as individual mechs, then balance,

but as it sits, it seems Clans lose to their IS Counterparts, Faster, Cooler, Stronger, Higher-Points,
their are those that will say that thats not true, and they may be right in their own way,
but in my experience all but the Trinity(SCR, TBR, DWF) are kinda Sub-par,

Cant Weight to see a KGC vs DWF, "Clash of the Titans!"

Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 November 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[The Boz]

Mcgral18, on 29 November 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Let's be objective, and compare all the Clam chassis'.
-snip-

Are you kidding me? Really? "Oh, this Clam is outdone by this THE VERY BEST IS MECH EVER IN THIS ENTIRE WEIGHT TIER so it's bad"? That's your objective comparison? How do you go from "None are exceedingly great, but neither are bad" for the MadDog to "six are worse" in the closing? "Perhaps on par with THE VERY BEST IS MECH EVER IN THIS ENTIRE WEIGHT TIER" is now a bad mech?

[Mcgral18]

The Boz, on 29 November 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Are you kidding me? Really? "Oh, this Clam is outdone by this THE VERY BEST IS MECH EVER IN THIS ENTIRE WEIGHT TIER so it's bad"? That's your objective comparison? How do you go from "None are exceedingly great, but neither are bad" for the MadDog to "six are worse" in the closing? "Perhaps on par with THE VERY BEST IS MECH EVER IN THIS ENTIRE WEIGHT TIER" is now a bad mech?

I'm sorry, but what?

Six Clan mechs are worse than their IS counterparts. That's half, if you didn't get it.

The other half are comparable, or better.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 29 November 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Let's be objective, and compare all the Clam chassis'.

Mist Lynx: At 25 tons, outclassed by nearly every IS light. Lolcust included, up to the 35 tonners(as you would expect). It's slow, has few hardpoints, and easily disarmed.
It can jump nicely.

Cute Fox: 30 tons, Jesus Box capable while losing only 1 E hardpoint; useful. Yes, slow. Can mount a small caliber AC without issues. JJ capable. Also very large for 30 tons. Spider takes advantage, in most cases. Both this and the Lynx lose out on 3 TrueDubs.

Adder: 35 tons, low mounted arms. Can boat missiles pretty nicely, actually. Splatters are a niche which is rivaled only by the Oxide, which does it faster, but with fewer missiles.

Ice Ferret: Fast, only fast Clam there is, presently. Also not the greatest. Limited hardpoints and pod space. BJ is better for 45 tons. Bishop says Vindis are good; I'm not convinced.

Nova: 12 E hardpoints. GIGANTIC arms, big legs, big torsos. Big mech. Although, 50 ton mech's worth of armour. That's not great.
It can't use those E hardpoints efficiently unless you bring 12 200M lasers. 12 extra heat gimped most loadouts.
Given the right circumstances, deadly. At range, dead. Hunchbacks and BJs laserboat better, with lower heat and higher mounts.

DoomCrow: Tier 1. No doubt. It lacks JJs, and that's it(with the given restrictions of omnimechs).

MadDog: 60 tons, opposite problem of the Dragon; tiny CT, huge STs. Dragon has high powered AC5s, this has all the missiles. I prefer the Dakka to the missiles. This one could go either way, I suppose. None are exceedingly great, but neither are bad.

LOLbringer: With a CT fix, so the arm isn't CT. And the ST isn't CT. And the rear isn't CT, this will be better. It gets fewer high mounts than the Jaeger, but has more hardpoint options. Perhaps even on par with the 5SS. Hard to tell without the fix.

Summoner: inferior to the Cataphract, but it can still kinda popsnipe...if you wanted to. High mounted Gauss is nice, only 4 E hardpoints are limiting but usable.
Also boats SRMs nicely. Endo instead of Ferro hurts. 5 hardwired JJs occupy lots of tonnage. Also inferior to the 5SS.

TimberGod: Tier 1, no competition.

Warhawk: Similar enough to the Stalker; missile and energy oriented. It has worse hitboxes and lower mounted hardpoints. Tanks damage worse. Seems to be alright, but slightly worse than the Stalker.

Dire Whale: honestly, I can't classify it Tier 1 due to being so damn slow. But, I won't deny it carries guns. I prefer Banshees to it, and it's often a fair match at short range. It wins most long range engagements, since the mobility means less at distance. We'll see how it compares to an IS chassis that has 4 pieces of Dakka, that moves faster.


So, 3 are better. Six are worse.

That means 3 are comparable. I guess half isn't outrageous.

FTFY

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The Boz, on 29 November 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Are you kidding me? Really? "Oh, this Clam is outdone by this THE VERY BEST IS MECH EVER IN THIS ENTIRE WEIGHT TIER so it's bad"? That's your objective comparison? How do you go from "None are exceedingly great, but neither are bad" for the MadDog to "six are worse" in the closing? "Perhaps on par with THE VERY BEST IS MECH EVER IN THIS ENTIRE WEIGHT TIER" is now a bad mech?

In each case he compared it to mech of equal weight, unless it was one of The Three.

[DIrty Crazy Harry]

As a new player I can say all the Clan and IS trial mechs die very fast no matter what you do in battles.They both suck for anew player 1-4 minutes a battle is terrible and a total waste of time trying to learn this game.Plus you have so low C-bills and XP after your bonus 30k-100k in trial mechs is average.

I wanted to come back and play a MechWarrior or battletech game with tough solid mechs and meaningful gameplay but I have found a mech game wont call MWO a MechWarrior or battletech game it is so lacking in content compared to the older PC games with this same IP. Even so MWO I a horrible experience for a new or returning MechWarrior player.

All I can do is play for fun because to be competitive you must PAY$ to level up your skills to maximum and buy modules or your just wasting your time as a bottom feeder to those that have OP mech skills and equipment battle after boring repetitive battle.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

DIrty Crazy Harry, on 29 November 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

As a new player I can say all the Clan and IS trial mechs die very fast no matter what you do in battles.They both suck for anew player 1-4 minutes a battle is terrible and a total waste of time trying to learn this game.Plus you have so low C-bills and XP after your bonus 30k-100k in trial mechs is average.

I wanted to come back and play a MechWarrior or battletech game with tough solid mechs and meaningful gameplay but I have found a mech game wont call MWO a MechWarrior or battletech game it is so lacking in content compared to the older PC games with this same IP. Even so MWO I a horrible experience for a new or returning MechWarrior player.

All I can do is play for fun because to be competitive you must PAY$ to level up your skills to maximum and buy modules or your just wasting your time as a bottom feeder to those that have OP mech skills and equipment battle after boring repetitive battle.

Unfortunately, there is no shallow end for you to get started in right now. Its training ground or be thrown to the wolves. But you certainly dont have to pay to level up you mech. In fact, make sure to take advantage of the experience bonus this weekend. Its 2.5x bonus win or lose, I think.

Once you get a good mech unlocked things get better. Make sure you visit the new player help section to get input on what to buy first so you don't regret it later.

[Inappropriate018]

I think most of the clanners crying that the IS is OP just feel that way because they paid tons of cash for something, and they want it to be the very best. And for a while, they were. However, now that PGI has come along and given all the IS mechs the attention they deserve, things have evened out nicely.

Is that lore? Not particularly. Is it necessary for a viable FPS game? Yeah, it is.

Add onto that, that the IS have tons of different mechs to fit every play style, while the clans have a limited number of viable combos. I can see how many think IS are OP.

[DIrty Crazy Harry]

Thank you Rouken I will read more about MWO I personally just cannot understand why MWO is so far from what MechWarrior games were like 10 years ago? There was so much to build on from past PC MechWarrior games MWO is like this total anti-social shallow mech game.

I will keep reading on the forums but there are so many people on this forum that are hostile and unhelpful in there criticism of everything and I fear as I read more im sounding the same way.Hopefully I can progress and enjoy this mech game for what it is a work in progress .

[LordKnightFandragon]

Krivvan, on 29 November 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

The problem is that it doesn't matter whatsoever as long as you are able to just take Timbers, Dires, and Stormcrows. How IS vs. Clan need to be compared is their best versus each other. Any other arbitrary comparison is pointless.

Yeah, but so long as you only compare the "best" of each side, then the underperformers never get needed buffs and the game becomes very stale and the exact same. If we only focus on TW/SCR/DW, then the other clan mechs that are not as good will always remain ****. And then, as people keep viewing the "Clans" as OP, when in reality its just 3 mechs, the Clans will keep getting nerfed, pushing the average or **** chassis deeper and deeper into **** land.....

No, we need to take the Clans and both sides as a whole...look at all the mechs and how they perform...not just a select 3.....



But if the game went Clan Vs IS and the TW/SCR/DW were not allowed? I think the IS would do pretty damn well actually. It would prolly be a 60/40 in favor of the IS.

Summoners cant pack enough guns to really be any kind of threat. They have like 1 loadout, SRMs....and thats a short range only loadout

Nova runs to hot to maintain a fight, it would be over run and killed quickly on heat alone.

Warhawk it loses its side torso entirely to quickly to really be a tanky assault. It has mobility, but taht only gets you so far....as an Assault you need to survive.

Adder, idk waht this mech is about.

Hellbringer, just looking at it in Smurfy, it seems like a hot mech. Just altering it's stock loadout with more armor, removing the MG, TC, BAP and adding more DHS and armor...still seems like a hot mech. It appears to have more versatility then the Summoner, but hot little bugger. Plus it's space is kinda limited, but its 65t, so thats expected.

Mad Dog: This is a Clan catapult, doesnt do real well up close, more of a support mech.

Clan ERPPC could use its 15dmg. It already runs hotter then crap, so boating like 4 of them doesnt even work. And besides, if it was needed, PGI could add that "fire only 2 at a time" rule to them to.

[Y E O N N E]

CERPPC doesn't run any hotter than the IS PPC, yet it weighs less and does more damage even if it's splash. The trade is extra range and no minimum limit, same as the IS.

It doesn't matter that Clans don't have a regular PPC option, because it's not like the IS have an 8-damage weapon that only weighs 2 tons or a 12 damage weapon that only weighs 6.

So, please, quit harping on the C-ERPPC. It's no better or worse than the IS ERPPC, and that's exactly how it should be.

[FupDup]

I don't really like trying to compare whole factions because then the results might get misinterpreted. Some posters in this thread have already mentioned that nerfing (or buffing) a faction as a whole simply because of a few "outliers" would end badly. I prefer to compare them on a mech-by-mech basis to avoid that.