32 replies to this topic

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I have always been a big fan of the MechWarrior series and this game is no different. In that, I have always loved the Summoner; it's always been my favorite 'Mech for a variety of reasons.

But I have to say, in this game, I can't think of any really good reason to run one other than flavor. There's always another 'Mech that can do any role better and it definitely feels as though the Summoner is fully eclipsed by the Timber Wolf, especially there being a jump capable TW in this game.

I've been reading the forums and noted some call for the Summoner to add Endosteel structure as a way to make it more viable. I have to say, I like this idea, but not just to free up space for weapons or ammo.

I know it's not canon, but I think they should add a slightly bigger engine to the Summoner. Perhaps do something to the Jump Jets, too.

It's always been my understanding (and playstyle) that the Summoner should be like an oversized medium. I have also seen that echoed a couple places here in the forums. I think the Summoner should be altered a bit to make it fit that role.

As it stands now, all heavy Clan 'Mechs have the same speed. Why not make the Summoner a bit quicker and more maneuverable?

The Mad Dog is only 60 tons and has more available tonnage. The Hellbringer has more available tonnage and ECM. The Timber Wolf has (quite a bit) more available tonnage and a JJ version. What does the Summoner bring to the game? I think the answer should be more speed and maneuverability.

Anyway, just a thought. Thanks for reading!

[NUJRSYDEVIL]

It's in the game for nostalgia. I've said this before but the Summoner/Thor was a beast in every MW until MWO where it just got neutered.

I do not understand the reasoning behind making it such an undesirable mech to pilot.

[Summon3r]

i really really hope something is done to make it better ALOT better, the mech was feared for a reason and it have NONE of those reasons in MWO.

[C E Dwyer]

Summoner is in a strange place, some people love it as it has better weapon placement than any of the clan heavies, but you are very limited on tonnage.

most seem to loath it so perhaps its due a quirk pass..

time will tell

[Jacon Ceronia]

I know I love my Summoner, but I love out of nostalgia and because it is a bit of an underdog.

[N a p e s]

Not really optimal but I have tons of fun in all three of mine.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Summoner really needs torso mounted energy hardpoints.
It would be really fun with 6 er mediums or 6 medium wubs.

Maybe custom omnipods pgi,pretty please

[Summon3r]

Cookiemonter669, on 02 December 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Summoner really needs torso mounted energy hardpoints.
It would be really fun with 6 er mediums or 6 medium wubs.

Maybe custom omnipods pgi,pretty please

this would be very welcome indeed, would instantly change the mech... baring that the only fix for it is to put c-erppc at 15 dmg straight on not spread out. as they should be anyway

[Alreech]

I was actually surprised how well some Summoner Builds work.
The Prime Build has a 10% lower cooldown for Energy and Ballistic Weapons (quirks for the arm Omnipods), and that is barley noticeable with the ER-PPC / LB 10X loadout.
But replace them with a Large Pulse Laser, an Upper Arm Actuator and an Ultra AC 5 (and some additional armor / ammunition ) and deactivate the arm lock, and it works well. You get a cool running (even on tourmaline) jump capable heavy Mech with good firepower and a wide arc of fire.

The Jump capable Omnipods of the Timber Wolf don't give any positive quirk, they are quite the opposite: longer cooldown for missiles and more damage when overheating,

Edited by Alreech, 02 December 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Mad Ox]

Drove me nuts in Battletech that it had no Endo and thus was really limited on armor and weaponry.

It is a touch limited in MWO mostly due to Weapon slots max of 6 using various omnipods while the Timber Wolf maxes at 12.

Be nice to remove jump jets and or add a few more weapon slots but really the mech is quite a monster. Once I got mine up to Elite and I got used to the limited load outs found it to be an incredible monster of a mech. Hit my highest damage match ever with one 1200+ damage.

Sure its not a timber wolf or Dire Wolf where takes little to no thought or creativity to make one. Pretty much you can do anything and everything you want with TW or DW. It forces you to really use the entire mech to get the most out of it and turns away people that see the generic numbers and don't even bother.

Personally if ya want a Timber Wolf play a timber Wolf want a summoner then play the summoner its differences make it a whole different beast. PGI I give props to for making it a real unique mech and not turning all mechs into carbon copies of the rest.

Until Mastered really cant get a true feel for a mech. If there and still not liking then probably just not your style of mech it happens.

[John80sk]

After the IS quirk pass I feel that the Summoner could easily be made viable through quirks. I'd rather see that than giving it more energy hardpoints so it can boat lasers like everything else.

Then more omnipods could be added that actually exist. Give it the C arm with a big UAC-20 velocity quirk, and a moderate cooldown quirk and all the sudden the Summoner would be scary... and there would be a mech that could actually use the UAC-20 effectively.

[Flak Kannon]

Guy named Tdutybq crushes in a Summoner. Jumping like a damn rabbit, raining SRMs all over the place.

I don't own Clan mechs, but when I see him on the other side, I know there is a serious threat awaiting.

Knowing how to play the mech is 99% of the equation. There are no bad mechs, just bad mech pilots....

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

I don't actually mind the lighter loadouts or restrictions on hardpoints, that's part of what makes it different. I just feel that it lack the maneuverability it's famous for.

Maybe they can do what I'm suggesting with quirks (as some suggested above); that seems like a good compromise. Something like CT has +7.5% Top Speed (or 5%, if that's too much) and maybe a +10% bonus to Turning Speed. Then tack on +5% something to JJs on the legs (Distance or something that makes it rocket up faster, call it Strength).

That way, it really would behave differently than other heavies and make it the superior JJ 'Mech it's always wanted to be!

[Macksheen]

I would love for it to be more nimble, with the various pods giving quirks to turn speed, turn angle, etc. Not everything has to be weapon-based.

Then again, I'd like the Highlander to be able to crush people with DFA.

[John80sk]

Agility quirks would be cool, but I doubt they would make a serious difference before the quirks got to ridiculous levels. I base this off of previous agility quirks not having much of an effect on a mech's performance.

In order for a mech (especially a heavy or assault) to be viable it needs to provide favorable exchanges with the other team. The Summoner can probably output 75% the DPS of other top tier heavies when built for brawling, and can be beaten at the range game by most mediums. Floating like a butterfly makes you a fairy, you have to sting like a bee to be Muhammad Ali.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

@John80sk:

I'm not sure I agree, DPS doesn't always have to mean lots of weapons to Alpha with. With quick recycling weapons you can produce a steady stream of damage, especially if you don't overheat (and heat is something the Summoner is good at).

I've always liked a fast, striker type 'Mech. A +7.5% Speed Quirk would result in a top speed of either 95.2 kph or 95.8 kph (both rounded numbers), depending on how it's calculated. Note the math is: (1.000+.1+.075)81=95.175 or 1.1*1.075*81=95.7825; I don't know which.

Couple this with the 60 points of armor the Summoner has on the Stormcrow (in a comparable role) and something to make JJs seem responsive instead of sluggish, and you'd have quite the platform for such a striker 'Mech.

Sure, the available tonnage is still 2 tons less than even the Stormcrow, but that's the price you pay for armor and JJs.

I'd run it in a heartbeat!

[John80sk]

Based on how percentage based quirks have operated so far I would assume 81(.1+.075)+81 or 81(1+.1+.075). The extra speed would be nice, and I wouldn't turn it down... but the question is once you get where you're going what can you do? The Ice Ferret is ridiculously fast for its weight class, and is utterly useless. The Dragon (pre-clan) was very fast for its weight class, and was basically useless.

I'm not basing my 75% number off of alpha, I'm basing it off of raw DPS numbers. That 75% isn't even taking into consideration how the Summoners maximum DPS build is spread damage, while other brawling heavies will have more focus (and I'm not even comparing it to the max realistic DPS of a Timby).

When looking at thing in a team setting, speed just isn't going to help the Summoner. Speed, turning, and torso twist only matter after firepower is taken into consideration. Pre-quirk this is why the Griffin was edging out the Shadowhawk as the premier brawler medium. They could both build for similar alpha and DPS, but the Griffin had better torso twist, and could mount a bigger engine since its weapons loadout was lighter. The key is the mechs have to be close in terms of firepower. An example of this is the Direwolf Victor comparison.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

You make good points. In its current incarnation it will never reach the same DPS (or Alpha) numbers that the TW has (or other lighter 'Mechs, for that matter); what, with its locked JJs and Heatsinks.

That brings us back around to giving it ES structure (as suggested by many). Even then it only gains a little over 2 tons and that's just ammo room, really. Maybe what it needs is both the structure upgrade (non-canon, as it is) and the Quirks on top of it to make it a viable mech.

Whatever the case, something needs to be done; as it stands now it's just a flavor 'Mech that even a medium can outpunch or outmaneuver (often both)!

Please, Devs, do _something_ to the Summoner to make it viable!

Note: I'm not sure what Direwolf/Victor comparison you're talking about. Do you mean to say that "there is no comparison because the Dire has so much DPS" or that "the Victor compares to the Dire because it has about equal DPS but is more maneuverable"?

[John80sk]

The Summoner would actually gain 3.5 tons for Endo, and yeah I reread my last bit and I can see how that's confusing. I meant that no one will take a Victor over a Direwolf because of the difference in firepower.

The Summoner does actually have some niche use, and WAS a tier 2ish mech before quirks happened and the Hellbringer showed up.

The thing with the omni-pod system and weapon quirks is you have to be careful with what you buff, as there are a lot more possibilities for abuse. Fortunately with a tonnage restricted mech like the Summoner you don't really have to worry about boating as much.

I would suggest something like:
Prime RA: +25% ERPPC Velocity +20% energy Cooldown
Prime LA: +20% Ballistic Cooldown +20% LBX-10 Cooldown
Prime LT: +7.5% Missile CD -10% Missile Heat Generation

B RA: +7.5% Missile CD
B LA: +7.5% Missile CD
B LT: +7.5% Missile CD

D RA: -10% Laser Duration +10% Energy Range -10% Energy Heat Generation
D LA: -10% Laser Duration +10% Energy Range -10% Energy Heat Generation
D RT: +10% Ballistic Range
D LT: +10% Ballistic Range

New Pods (Timeline Appropriate)
A LA (1B): +10% Ballistic CD +10% Gauss CD
A LT (1M): +7.5% Missile CD +7.5% SRM-6 CD -7.5% Missile Heat Generation -7.5% SRM-6 Heat Generation
C LA (1B): +25% Ballistic Velocity +25% UAC-20 Velocity +10% Ballistic CD +10% UAC-20 CD
F RA (1B 1E): +10% Ballistic CD +10% UAC-5 CD -5% Laser Duration
F LA (1B 1E): +10% Ballistic CD +10% UAC-5 CD -5% Laser Duration

[TheSilken]

Just let us remove JJs and add some more hardpoints to the Side Torsos. Boom done.