148 replies to this topic

[Walluh]

I really don't like the engine crit system. TTK is low enough as it is. It doesn't need to get lower if RNG frowns upon you.

[Gyrok]

Gyrok, on 02 December 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

If you weight it by ELO...

The last round of IS vs. Clans, ELO predicted clans to win 70%, at which point they won 64%.

Which means clans lost more than they should have based on ELO prediction.

Now, according to the very same logic used to nerf them, they are now under powered because they win less than they should according to ELO predictions.

If you refute this logical progression, you refute the basis of nerfing the clans to begin with, so, which is correct?

Still want an answer from the "PGIPLZ NERF NAO!1!" crowd on this one...

No one seems to have one though...

[Mechteric]

I'm actually ok with this idea, though engine crits should be more serious in their effect on heat and speed both to IS and Clan XL's. I'm thinking something like the 40kph maximum that occurs when you get legged (but without the slower speed when shot while legged).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 December 2014 - 06:43 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 02 December 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I believe allowing an IS mech to survive torso destruction would make IS standard engines as worthless as single heatsinks. I think I would rather see some real penalties to Clan mechs that lose a torso.like half movement and massive extra heat.

I dont WANT to agree, but I HAVE to agree here

Id love to see IS XLs get a buff, my XL banshees would be unstoppable...

but it's true, there is already no reason to run std engines on half the IS mechs, and if losing a side torso didnt kill you, you'll start seeing XLs on stalkers.

[SirLANsalot]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy. That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones. So, a possible idea: Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar. The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs. Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input. *engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

This is a replay to just the main OP.


IS mechs "pay" in terms of survival, for the option of being able to change there eng rating. Clans cannot do that, and as such, instead split the difference, by being able to live after 1 torso but not both. In return Clan mechs are not allowed to change there eng, or there Endo/ferro.

These mechanics are self balancing in there own regard. so there is no need for any changes to them.

However if you do want to change that mechanic (IS mechs do not die to torso shots with XL eng) then Clans should be allowed to change there Endo/Ferro, OR...and that is an OR!!!! Be able to change there Eng Rating, but not both.

[Angel of Annihilation]

LordBraxton, on 03 December 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

I dont WANT to agree, but I HAVE to agree here

Id love to see IS XLs get a buff, my XL banshees would be unstoppable...

but it's true, there is already no reason to run std engines on half the IS mechs, and if losing a side torso didnt kill you, you'll start seeing XLs on stalkers.

Again this depends on the penalties. Seriously, think about it. You lose a side torso and your speed gets dropped to around 30 kph. Your not striding off across that battlefield hunting the enemy at 30 kph, in fact your a big, fat juicy target. Second, your cooling capacity goes into the toilet. Sure you can fire your PPC, one of them every 15 seconds. Not going to dominate anything like that. However your still alive and still able to contribute something to the battle which is better than instant death if your build is dependent on an XL to be effective.

OR

You keep the Standard engine you have always been running and keep running at full speed and keep being able to use all your remaining weapons just like you do now.

Seriously, there would still be plenty of advantages to using a Standard as long as the penalties for losing a ST with an XL were significant.

Also this is coming from a dedicated Clanner who doesn't even really run IS mechs anymore. In the past 547 battles, I have taken out an IS mech out 37 times so even as a Clanner, I am saying IS XLs need this sort of buff. Doesn't have to be huge, just something that keeps them from dropping like a puppet with their strings cut the second an XL using IS mech loses it ST.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 03 December 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Brody319]

if a crit destroys a part of the engine, the machine guns and LB-Xs would be even deadlier.

[Timuroslav]

I guess, I'm for this as long as Clan Mechs get Omnipods with different engine ratings. Although, Clan core doctrine in the lore was "No Slow mechs" Unless you're an Assault mech or an Outpost defence mech. IE: Glass Spider

This kind of goes back into the core problem of
Core rule ignore?
What parts of the Lore are acceptable to change, is fun worth Sacrificing for Canon?
Keep in mind Battletech like any boardgame was designed around the core rule of fun/complex.

Dungeons and Dragons is on it's what variation?
5th?
Because D&D 3.5 was broken because of feature creep on Casters. Dimension Door Everywhere all the time, and then Polymorph from Human into Dragon get its stats then Caste Dominate person.
Battletech's feature creep is Clan mechs.

That said, clan mechs should still be fun and able to customize to some degree.
I don't believe Clan mechs should have the ability to move jump jets.
But, if IS get this XL semi Buff. (It should not be implemented at all without massive penalties), Clan mechs should also get some other engine options.

Idk, I'm sorry but I see this really breaking innersphere engines. Just because the Fire power and speed are gained with a little less durability. Not sure if that's what the Inner Sphere engines were all about.

Edited by Timuroslav, 03 December 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Metus regem]

Timuroslav, on 03 December 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

I guess, I'm for this as long as Clan Mechs get Omnipods with different engine ratings. Although, Clan core doctrine in the lore was "No Slow mechs" Unless you're an Assault mech or an Outpost defence mech. IE: Glass Spider

This kind of goes back into the core problem of
Core rule ignore?
What parts of the Lore are acceptable to change, is fun worth Sacrificing for Canon?
Keep in mind Battletech like any boardgame was designed around the core rule of fun/complex.

Dungeons and Dragons is on it's what variation?
5th?
Because D&D 3.5 was broken because of feature creep on Casters. Dimension Door Everywhere all the time, and then Polymorph from Human into Dragon get its stats then Caste Dominate person.
Battletech's feature creep is Clan mechs.

That said, clan mechs should still be fun and able to customize to some degree.
I don't believe Clan mechs should have the ability to move jump jets.
But, if IS get this XL semi Buff. (It should not be implemented at all without massive penalties), Clan mechs should also get some other engine options.

Idk, I'm sorry but I see this really breaking innersphere engines. Just because the Fire power and speed are gained with a little less durability. Not sure if that's what the Inner Sphere engines were all about.

For the most part, I am okay with where the Clans are right now, but I think the best way to give the IS players some kind of balance engine wise would be to offer them a limited selection of light engines, 75% of the weight of a standard, but only two slots in each ST...

I'd say offer the Light Engine in the fallowing sizes:

150
200
300
400

Then keep it that way till a good time jump say 8/10 year time jump, then open up the other sizes... and yes I know for the most part the Light Engine does make the standard engine almost invalid, but it is not with out some cost in terms of durability.

I'm also for proper engine crit, and heat / movement penlites too.

[KuroNyra]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy.

That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones.

So, a possible idea:

Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar.

The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs.

Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input.

*engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

I was thinking about something like that. But won't that make the STD engines obsolete?
I don't think changing the IS XL is the thing to do.

Maybe apply that solution for the Clans Mech instead?

[Brody319]

KuroNyra, on 03 December 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

I was thinking about something like that. But won't that make the STD engines obsolete?
I don't think changing the IS XL is the thing to do.

Maybe apply that solution for the Clans Mech instead?

No, it was said that losing a ST with an XL engine would be crippling, such as being legged and losing a ton of cooling efficiency loss. basically Clans are immune to a decrease speed and only have minor heat problems with their XLs but the IS didn't improve theirs so they are nearly crippled.

Rules of TT say that 3 engine slots get destroyed your mech is ******. IS XLs put 3 slots in the STs which is why losing them kills you. This would essentially break that rule, but would leave the IS mech in question nearly dead if they lost an ST. No what makes the STD engine obsolete will be the Light Fusion engine, basically the IS version of the Clan XL, only 2 engine slots in the STs, and its 75% the weight of a STD engine.

Edited by Brody319, 03 December 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 03 December 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

No, it was said that losing a ST with an XL engine would be crippling, such as being legged and losing a ton of cooling efficiency loss. basically Clans are immune to a decrease speed and only have minor heat problems with their XLs but the IS didn't improve theirs so they are nearly crippled.

Rules of TT say that 3 engine slots get destroyed your mech is ******. IS XLs put 3 slots in the STs which is why losing them kills you. This would essentially break that rule, but would leave the IS mech in question nearly dead if they lost an ST. No what makes the STD engine obsolete will be the Light Fusion engine, basically the IS version of the Clan XL, only 2 engine slots in the STs, and its 75% lighter than a STD engine.

I do hate to nit-pick Brody, but the underlined section is incorrect, it is 25% lighter than a standard engine, making it 75% of the weight....

I know what you meant was it is 75% of the weight, not 75% lighter...

But I would just hate for some of the..... less battle tech educated among the player base to get the wrong idea.

[Sprouticus]

superteds, on 02 December 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

it would make std engines in the majority of cases (exluding torso ac20's etc) redundant. there's also lots of fits that are only not too powerful by virtue of having the side torso drawback... i'm not really sure this is needed. that's quite a heavy change for a problem that can mostly be addressed with quirks.

This.

It would make std engines useless, every single IS mech would take XL engines.
And IS mechs with big CT's would suffer greatly because the only reason people take them now is they are XL friendly.

[Davers]

Barantor, on 02 December 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Aside from the Victor, I know a lot of folks leg those other mechs so it is kinda moot?

Then why don't people just leg the Clan mechs and problem solved?

[Barantor]

Davers, on 03 December 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Then why don't people just leg the Clan mechs and problem solved?

I do with Stormcrows with some mechs since their side torsos are small. I take out side torsos and rear armor in the bigger mechs, since many have to face you in order to be able to bring that firepower to bear.

[VanillaG]

My vote is to leave the IS XL like it is and introduce the Light Fusion Engine with Clan like behavior. As a buff to the IS I would change IS CASE to behave like CASE II so if a side torso had CASE any ammo crit would blow out the back/dissipate and leave the internal structure alone. This way an IS mech can equip an XL engine and CASE and not have to worry about an ammo explosion killing the mech. The Clan CASE would work like it currently does by preventing damage from transferring.

[Gyrok]

LordBraxton, on 03 December 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

I dont WANT to agree, but I HAVE to agree here

Id love to see IS XLs get a buff, my XL banshees would be unstoppable...

but it's true, there is already no reason to run std engines on half the IS mechs, and if losing a side torso didnt kill you, you'll start seeing XLs on stalkers.

This.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gyrok, on 03 December 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Still want an answer from the "PGIPLZ NERF NAO!1!" crowd on this one...

No one seems to have one though...

If I had to guess a their answer, it will be something along the lines of, "Its still 64% to the IS 36%, so Clans still OP"....

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

ELAR 440 Double Core-Fusion Engine just 3,5kk C-Bils for 14CT and 45 tons. (TRO 2880) non XL

Or WTOLL 480 XXL Fusion Engine.

Edited by Kiryuin Ragyo, 03 December 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Brody319, on 03 December 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

No, it was said that losing a ST with an XL engine would be crippling, such as being legged and losing a ton of cooling efficiency loss. basically Clans are immune to a decrease speed and only have minor heat problems with their XLs but the IS didn't improve theirs so they are nearly crippled.

Rules of TT say that 3 engine slots get destroyed your mech is ******. IS XLs put 3 slots in the STs which is why losing them kills you. This would essentially break that rule, but would leave the IS mech in question nearly dead if they lost an ST. No what makes the STD engine obsolete will be the Light Fusion engine, basically the IS version of the Clan XL, only 2 engine slots in the STs, and its 75% the weight of a STD engine.

Metus regem, on 03 December 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

I do hate to nit-pick Brody, but the underlined section is incorrect, it is 25% lighter than a standard engine, making it 75% of the weight....

I know what you meant was it is 75% of the weight, not 75% lighter...

But I would just hate for some of the..... less battle tech educated among the player base to get the wrong idea.

So if we apply to the IS XL.
We backdrawn need to be huge.
Heat and Speed loss. A lot.