148 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

KuroNyra, on 03 December 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

So if we apply to the IS XL.
We backdrawn need to be huge.
Heat and Speed loss. A lot.

I was thinking your mech would move about the same speed as if it was legged, and for heat I imagine a 100% heat increase could work and make it impossible to fire gauss rifles (because it requires drawing power from the engine to fire) So IS could get off a few tiny shots but would be overheated if they attempted to fire any big weapon like a PPC.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

So if the XL is the biggest cause of Clan mechs being better, why would you give IS a nerfed version of the Clan XL?

Edited by Rouken, 03 December 2014 - 03:26 PM.

[CrashieJ]

the thing is I enjoy the use of Standard engines in mechs more than XLs, since more people run XLs it's good to see them stall as they figure out why I haven't died yet.

but the thing is, clans are supposed to be more tanky than us IS folk.

but taking out a clan mech in an IS chassis should net us higher rewards.

[Helbrecht]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy.

That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones.

So, a possible idea:

Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar.

The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs.

Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input.

*engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

IS Light engine solves this whole problem just wait about 10 in game years.

[KuroNyra]

Rouken, on 03 December 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

So if the XL is the biggest cause of Clan mechs being better, why would you give IS a nerfed version of the Clan XL?

Because the XL Clans engines are SUPPOSED to work that way?
Because to nerf even more the Clans would be much more frustating and wouldn't not solve the problem?
Because the Clans already got "balanced" a lot and since they DON'T have a choice for there engine. To nerf them like that would be just criminal?
Because the Inner Sphere mech have at least the possibility to change between XL and STD engine?


Clans mech are far from being "better" than the IS mech now. Sur you have the Timber Wolf and the Storm Crow who work pretty well, but they are supposed to be some of the best mech. Yet they are far from being invincible and are defeatable in One vs One.

(I don't talk for the DireWolf, it's normal to being ***** by a Dire Wolf face to face. They are suppose to get 50 tons of weapons on them. If you see a direwolf, take by the side. Already much easier to deal with them. Of course, noobs have problem understanding that.)

The rest of the Clans mech are going from garbage to "Ok". Just look at the Summoner, that thing is underplayed and barely a threat on the battlefield.
Let's not talk about the Adder or the Myst Linx.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

KuroNyra, on 03 December 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Because the XL Clans engines are SUPPOSED to work that way?
Because to nerf even more the Clans would be much more frustating and wouldn't not solve the problem?
Because the Clans already got "balanced" a lot and since they DON'T have a choice for there engine. To nerf them like that would be just criminal?
Because the Inner Sphere mech have at least the possibility to change between XL and STD engine?


Clans mech are far from being "better" than the IS mech now. Sur you have the Timber Wolf and the Storm Crow who work pretty well, but they are supposed to be some of the best mech. Yet they are far from being invincible and are defeatable in One vs One.

(I don't talk for the DireWolf, it's normal to being ***** by a Dire Wolf face to face. They are suppose to get 50 tons of weapons on them. If you see a direwolf, take by the side. Already much easier to deal with them. Of course, noobs have problem understanding that.)

The rest of the Clans mech are going from garbage to "Ok". Just look at the Summoner, that thing is underplayed and barely a threat on the battlefield.
Let's not talk about the Adder or the Myst Linx.

You seem upset, so I'll just point out that I said nothing about changing Clan XL engines.

The question was, if you're going to give IS a Clan XL engine, why give it one with severe penalties attached?

[Alex Morgaine]

I don't mind forced fixed location jump jets, or making them an upgrade(flexible slots for torso and legs ala endo steel), but please make them work as intended first. Also, I'd suggest the JJ max# should be based off engine size so larger engines can fit more then stock jjs, and smaller engines would hold less. Could always turn +jj over limit into a quirk.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

The lore is video game poison.

and balance poison

Edited by Nephera, 03 December 2014 - 04:28 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy.

That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones.

So, a possible idea:

Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar.

The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs.

Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input.

*engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

I like the idea.

BUT, what about making it so that IS XL engines still die instantly with ST loss, unless you have some kind of special engine CASE (E-CASE). You have a penalty for running a lighter engine, but not the instant death that goes with it. Brawlers would get a huge buff with this, by devoting maybe 2-3 tons (1-1.5 tons per E-CASE) to prevent their XL's from killing them.

You can explain it away by saying that the E-CASE is some kind of advanced emergency magnetic shielding system that couples to the engine, preventing catastrophic reactor failure upon XL engine breaches. Make it like a heavier Clan XL, you lose one ST and you're fine, you lose both and you die horribly.

One would expect XL engines to drop in price as a result though, since you've got to dedicate C-Bills to making them safe.

[Durant Carlyle]

Nephera, on 03 December 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

The lore is video game poison.

and balance poison

Not if you want a game based on that lore, which this game definitely is.

If you want Generic Big Stompy Robot Combat Game #249, then you might be right.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 03 December 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[VaudeVillain]

To me, the IS XL is fine. It's counter to clan XL survivability is Standard Engines. On this guy I only run 3025 tech and I can still get decent numbers. And I have mediums doing just 50kph.

Edited by GaiDaigoji, 03 December 2014 - 06:43 PM.

[Lord de Seis]

No. And all I own is IS mechs.

Everyone will just use XL's and Standards will have no place in the game.

Edited by Lord de Seis, 03 December 2014 - 06:48 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'd prefer to see a Titanfall-style "doomed" state for IS XL mechs that lose a side torso. Instead of flopping over dead, the mech can continue to function with bigger penalties than for Clan mechs, but with progressive deterioration of functions culminating in mech death after, say 1 minute. Losing both torsos is an instant death, as with clan mechs.

Something like:

0:00 - Mech loses a side torso. Instant loss of cooling from 3 heatsinks. Deterioration of movement functions starts now:
0:10 - Mech reduced to 80% movement functions (top speed, acceleration, etc.)
0:20 - Mech reduced to 75% movement functions. Twist and arm speed at 80%. Sensors and targeting start to fail.
0:30 - Mech reduced to 50% movement. Twist and arm speed at 60%. Sensors and targeting flicker sporadically. Weapons and heatsinks start to deteriorate
0:40 - Mech reduced to 25% movement. Twist and arm speed at 40%. Sensors are all gone. Weapon cooldowns are doubled. Heatsinks at 50%
0:50 - Mech immobilized. Torso twist speed at 20% Energy weapons are reduced to half damage. Ballistic and missile weapons no longer reload.
0:55 - Mech fully immobilized. Consumables are disabled. Last chance to eject.
1:00 - Mech falls over dead.
This will have the interesting effect of increasing player aggression upon loss of side torso, since they're essentially walking dead when that happens. Most players would probably prefer to go down fighting than experience this slow death, though I guess a doomed could still win on a cap if they get far away enough. This process would be halted or slowed on player shutdown, to give that particular function a purpose.

[Tincan Nightmare]

I usually go for the side of TT and lore in most cases, as I want this to remain a BattleTech game (like it says in the title now for MWO). However, many of the people in this thread arguing against the OP's point, seem to have forgotten that PGI has already diverged from TT and lore in a major way. They have already stated that they want the Clans to be EQUAL to the IS. PGI's current intent is that if you take a 70 ton Clan mech against an IS 70 tonner, you have NO clear edge or advantage in regards to technology. They want matches to be 12 versus 12, with the Clan 12 not being able to blow away the IS 12 due to having the superior weapons and mechs. The numerous nerfs to Clan weapons aren't accidents, they are intentional changes to balance out a game where IS mechs fight against an equal number of Clan mechs.

In the TT the Clans usually operated at a numerical disadvantage for their superiority in firepower and survivability. They also orginally had to operate under strict rules of engagement, such as engaging targets seperately in duels and never combining fire on targets (unless the enemy broke those rules first). Under the typical Clan rules of engagement, you would never see the widespread use of 'indirect' LRM fire that happens so often in a typical match. However, PGI has decided that implementating those limits would be either impossible or undesirable, and instead have gone with a model of limiting Clan tech to make both sides equivalent.

As long as PGI continues to run with that model of 1 Clan mech = 1 IS mech, I see no problem with removing the insta-death rule for IS XL's, to bring the game closer to actual parity between the forces. As far as STD engines becoming extinct, give them some other bonus (such as increasing the number of internal heat sinks they can carry over XL engines). Though PGI has already made STD heat sinks extinct, subject to a 1.5 million C-bill tax for their removal, so I'm not sure how it would even matter except as another C-bill sink to buy the new engine.

And if this somehow gives IS forces a sudden edge over their Clan counterparts, then maybe PGI could loosen certain restrictions on Clan tech and customization, like removing fixed equipment/JJ's, lowering heat or beam duration, maybe even changes to Clan AC's like shorter bursts or even single shot versions.

PGI has already diverged from TT/lore, which to me sucks, but unless they reverse THAT decision sticking to each dotted I and crossed T of TT rules is pointless, the ship has sailed (and hopefully isn't the Titanic ).

[Mothykins]

While Cav is gone, Bishop inspires Riots with many threads.

Good work.


That said, I like the basic premise.

Edited by Cavale, 03 December 2014 - 10:38 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Rouken, on 03 December 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

You seem upset, so I'll just point out that I said nothing about changing Clan XL engines.

The question was, if you're going to give IS a Clan XL engine, why give it one with severe penalties attached?

I wasn't upset. I was just explaining the reasons.

We're not going to give Clan XL engine, no. To do that would really kill the STD engine and make the Clans completly useless. One of there main thing is after all the Engine who can survive the loss of the side torso.

Why severe penalties attached? But because the XL IS engine are suppose to kill you if you lost a side torso, remove that and you will have basicly a light engine and will make the STD completly useless, so in order to keep the STD engine a viable choice BUT making the IS XL engine less "unfair" (for the ones who have trouble dealing with that.) We could remove the death for the loss of a side torso. But make huge penalties making the Battlemech severely crippled. That way, the XL will still be dangerous to use, but will give a bit of more chance.



But hey, the XL Engine for the IS was suppose to kill if you lose a side torso. The only reason we are thinking about this is because some guys are too bad to handle that.

[Grey Ghost]

I definitely see the benefits, but I'd rather they just retcon the introduction of the Light Fusion Engine. It comes with it's own built in disadvantage of less weight saving than any XL engine, thus making it inferior to Clan tech by default. Plus it will not obsolete STD engine in all builds without some compromise. Seeing as how Crit Space can be a severely limiting factor on the Inner Sphere Tech side, especially within the Heavy & Assault weight classes.

[Livewyr]

To OP (Bish)

No.
Because 100% Customization. (Endo, Ferro, Engine change, etc..)
Because Quirks. (Speak for themselves.)
Because Weapons. (Shorter beam durations, PPFLD ACs/UAcs, volley missiles)
Because Price. (And price is already skewed with Clan tech having *less* capability than stock while costing more, and IS tech having *more* capability than stock while costing less.)

[Snoopy]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

I don't think we will see how good or bad the clans are till CW starts. The last test they did was extremely short.

And mind that CW will happen on other maps. Different enviroment and different win conditions will have a huge impact on builds and tactics IMHO.

[Rakshasa]

I like the idea. The thing about BattleTech's mechanics is that they're 30-odd years old and have never really been given a good going-over and reworking with more modern design sensibilities, so weights vs. heat vs. damage output are all over the shop, ballistics are still hugely overweighted, armour and structure are strictly a "hit point bar" mechanic, and I could go on but I won't. But I could.

What I'm trying to say is, I'm all for changing "treasured" lore if it means making a better, more coherently balanced game system and world setting. OP's idea of IS XL engines being more fragile than their Clan counterparts but not an instant death sentence for any IS XL 'Mech that loses their side torso sounds pretty flavourful and workable in that regard. Not saying it wouldn't require examining and rebalancing a buttload of other stuff down the line as a result, but so far as shaking up a bunch of calcified old system principles goes I don't think that would be entirely a bad thing either

Edited by Rakshasa, 04 December 2014 - 03:23 AM.