148 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

wouldn't the Light Fusion engine obsolete the Standard engine for almost every mech?

make the internal DHS 1.4................

[SilentSooYun]

I've had an idea for a very long time now based on both CASE and modern compartmentalisation, but...

What if Mechs could buy a CASE-like Engine Shielding: an additional piece of equipment that you buy and add to your side torso that prevents complete destruction of your reactor. Catastrophic damage to the torso (ammo explosion, dual-gauss appendectomy) would reduce the engine to a single crit location, with the associated TT engine damage drawbacks of massively increased heat production.

Unlike a sweeping engine buff, it's optional to purchase and install, giving players a tactical choice as to whether they want to use it or take the risk to mount bigger guns, or even to use it on one side and save space on the other. Like CASE, it's a matter of weight, space, and cost vs. risk. And it doesn't replace CASE, just gives a CASE-like option for XL engines.

Edited by SilentSooYun, 02 December 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

wouldn't the Light Fusion engine obsolete the Standard engine for almost every mech?

Artgathan, on 02 December 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

OT: I'm worried that this change will invalidate STD engines (as others have said). XL Engines are already fairly ubiquitous on the field (even in IS mechs). If we're going to buff XLs, I'd suggest also giving some love to STD Engines (maybe a damage reduction or something?)

Yes and no, most mechs would wind up dropping their Standards or XLs for Lights. The mechs that would be the exceptions are the Light mechs (and a few mediums) would keep their XLs for the speed; and the upper end assaults like the Stalkers, Awesomes, and Atlas would most likely wind up keeping their Standards due to engine caps.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jack Avery, on 02 December 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

On this particular subject I feel that Clan/IS balance isn't even a factor, don't even bring the Clans up. XL engine death was not designed with our aiming/convergence/hitbox system in mind. It isn't actually balance for it, and should never have been implemented as it was. I do agree that IS XL side-torso destruction should have some pretty steep penalties, but death should not be one of them. This is just a case were TT needs to be ignored a bit.



If we could make IS ferro not suck as bad as it does, I'd be on board with that trade-off.

I still say change ferro...make it allow you to go OVER your normal max by 1.12x or 1.2 for clans. Then you'd get real benefit.

[The Very Old German Wolf]

Simple answer NO! And no you are not Mr TT because no real TT player would even begin to think about such a hairbrained suggestion. Clans are nerfed more then enough as it is no need to nerf them even more and no need to do stupid things to the IS mechs to make em even more powerful in regard to the lore. The quirks that the IS have gotten are fine (love playing my IS mechs even more now) and even though non lore are acceptable your idear just takes it three steps too far,

[SaltBeef]

Standard would be popular with anymech wanting to mount a Ac20 in the torso or does the light xl not take side crit spaces.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 02 December 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

Yes and no, most mechs would wind up dropping their Standards or XLs for Lights. The mechs that would be the exceptions are the Light mechs (and a few mediums) would keep their XLs for the speed; and the upper end assaults like the Stalkers, Awesomes, and Atlas would most likely wind up keeping their Standards due to engine caps.

Heh...lock IS JJ "hardpoints" (idea someone proposed on another thread) so you want JJs they go where they are supposed to... be that would influence a lot of mechs away form XL or Light....and make the Clanners feel less persecuted.

Eric Wulfen, on 02 December 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Simple answer NO! And no you are not Mr TT because no real TT player would even begin to think about such a hairbrained suggestion. Clans are nerfed more then enough as it is no need to nerf them even more and no need to do stupid things to the IS mechs to make em even more powerful in regard to the lore. The quirks that the IS have gotten are fine (love playing my IS mechs even more now) and even though non lore are acceptable your idear just takes it three steps too far,

Lolz.

No. Just not all TT players are so hidebound that they think random hitlocation TT rules translate to a FPS shooter.

I have played since 1987. Have you?

SaltBeef, on 02 December 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Standard would be popular with anymech wanting to mount a Ac20 in the torso or does the light xl not take side crit spaces.

2 crits instead of 3, I think.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Heh...lock IS JJ "hardpoints" (idea someone proposed on another thread) so you want JJs they go where they are supposed to... be that would influence a lot of mechs away form XL or Light....and make the Clanners feel less persecuted.

I've actually been (and have been pushing for two years now) that JJs should be an upgrade like Artemis. You take all of them where the TROs say they go, or you take none of them. None of this 1 JJ to skip so you can throw off the HSR.

[Hillslam]

Eric Wulfen, on 02 December 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Simple answer NO! And no you are not Mr TT because no real TT player would even begin to think about such a hairbrained suggestion. Clans are nerfed more then enough as it is no need to nerf them even more and no need to do stupid things to the IS mechs to make em even more powerful in regard to the lore. The quirks that the IS have gotten are fine (love playing my IS mechs even more now) and even though non lore are acceptable your idear just takes it three steps too far,

YEAH! WHAT HE SAID

Clans are already nerfed down to only winning 2 matches for every 1 IS match. People, clans are ONLY winning twice as many matches. Thats clearly unacceptable. ONLY 2 to 1?!?

Nerf them more? Make it a fair fight? What??? What are you, crazy? We don't want a fair fight.

what do we want? WE WANT CLAN OP! when do we want it? WE WANT IT NOW!

Edited by Hillslam, 02 December 2014 - 01:33 PM.

[SaltBeef]

I agree there has to be a trade off. Less heat for clan lasers or better autocannons.

[Jack Corban]

Sorry but...

Good God in heaven, Newbie. There are just so very many ways for me to say this to you: Never. Not in a million years. Absolutely not. No way, Jose. No chance, Lance. Nyet. Negatori. Mm-mm. Nuh-uh. Uh-uh. And of course, my own personal favorite of all time, man falling off of a cliff. Noooooooooo!

Edited by Jack Corban, 02 December 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[ManDaisy]

Neat idea, I kinda like it, but IS mechs are really enjoying quite a bit of power creep right now. Clans would need something like unrestricted ferro and endo and jump jets just like IS to counter balance it.

Edited by ManDaisy, 02 December 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Really, the blasphemy of the idea.

https://encrypted-tb...qN5eRyokyzT0hsp




Nice idea and it could work, but there will be other types of IS engines coming out. For now I would hold off on that idea, and look more to reductions for any engine hit. Like say you have a few hits on a torso mounted XL and then a bunch in the center. At some point the engine has to lose power, cooling and then destruction.

[MauttyKoray]

While I like this idea for balance if the game were set and wouldn't include any new tech, I believe the current imbalance is fine (and I do play IS XL mechs) with the assumption that later tech (such as light engines) will eventually be added to the game. (Especially now that PGI is stable on their feet working on the game and are out from under IGP's direction.)

[Kavoh]

Some people made some good points while others just reinforced that they just want it to be identical to clan mechs.

So tell me, whats the point in different engine types? Crit space is a ridiculous excuse because the trade off for a XL engine that doesn't die to a ST loss is just too great to worry about that.

Are you going to penalize IS xl engines too? Or is this a one way change?

Clans have been nerfed down so much it is getting close to the 50/50~ (READ: I said CLOSE) in terms of balance between IS and CLAN but there still need to be differences. Many IS weapons have preferred stats and/or better boating capability. IS ACs are the prime example of this, and IS also has the ability to customize whatever engine they want whether to be slow/fast and stack more/less weapons.

IS has the option of either an XL size of their choosing = death from st or ct destruction or a STD engine of their choosing to be even more resilient with the only way (outside of a headshot) to kill them being a CT destruction

Meanwhile, CLANs have ONE option, and that is the fixed XL engine they cannot modify resulting in only being able to lose ONE ST.

So-

IS XL - 3 possible death locations (ST CT ST)

IS STD - 1 possible death location (CT)

CLAN XL - 2 possible death locations (both STs or CT)

Seems pretty balanced to me. Not to mention the balance changes they keep adding to XL engine st losses.

Edited by Kavoh, 02 December 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Alreech]

Eric Wulfen, on 02 December 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Simple answer NO! And no you are not Mr TT because no real TT player would even begin to think about such a hairbrained suggestion. Clans are nerfed more then enough as it is no need to nerf them even more and no need to do stupid things to the IS mechs to make em even more powerful in regard to the lore. The quirks that the IS have gotten are fine (love playing my IS mechs even more now) and even though non lore are acceptable your idear just takes it three steps too far,

I'm a real TT player, and you are no true scotsman
I'm playing the tabletop since 1987, and it was always my opinion that the IS-XL Engine should be treated like a clan XL-Engine.

The big thing about Omni Mechs isn't the customization - it's the ability to choose the loadout before the drop - for example a low heat loadout for Terra Therma or a short range loudout for River City.
Under that aspect neither the clan or the IS Mechs are real Omni Mechs.

Generally the Battletech Construction System wasn't very good when first introduced 1984, and it was never really reworked.
FASA just added stuff to it, and the stuff make it worse. PGI should be brave and ignore stupid rules like the "mandatory 10 heat sinks" that leads to the curios effect that smaller engines need more slots than bigger engines.

To buff the low tech (Standard Engines, non ER/Puls Lasers, Single Heatsinks, ect...) the best way would to change how the critical hit system works.
Low Tech items should be harder to crit.

[Artgathan]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

wouldn't the Light Fusion engine obsolete the Standard engine for almost every mech?

Most likely. My point is more that it wouldn't obsolete the current XL Engine. That said, STD Engines are pretty rubbish for what they are.

Consider that against a "perfect" marksman (who always hits your CT if they know you have a STD Engine, or always hits the same ST if they know you have an XL Engine) an XL Engine only reduces your life expectancy by ~33%, while offering up considerable weight savings (for instance, going from a STD250 to an XL250 on a 50 tonner frees up ~12% of your mech's tonnage for equipment).

The only mechs in the current game that really benefit from STD Engines are those that cannot twist fast enough to disrupt people's aim against their Side Torsos (which is why most assaults don't carry XLs - they can't stop people from targeting them).

[Hillslam]

Kavoh, on 02 December 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Clans have been nerfed down so much it is getting close to the 50/50~ (READ: I said CLOSE) in terms of balance between IS and CLAN but there still need to be differences.

No, it isn't.

Its 64% to 36%

That's roughly 2 to 1.

That's not even close to "close".

Pilot 1:1 wins on a personal level due to ELO <> 1:1 Clan vs IS match wins.

They are two completely different things. Just because people lose in clan mechs isn't due to balance, because aside from the tests its all mixed matches. Its due to ELO. Don't confuse personal suckage with clan gear suckage.

See sig. Rock on.

Edited by Hillslam, 02 December 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Barantor]

So here is what I would do.

XL for IS like Bishop purposes, but....

Endo steel structure is bound to all mechs that have it stock, regardless if you have an xl on the mech or not.

This affects..
LCT - 3M, 3S
FS9-S
CN9-D
TBT-7M
SHD-5M

Which honestly isn't a lot, but its a few. The big thing is that any other mechs can't have endo steel at all. This makes sense as you don't just go and change a frame at some battlefield repair yard.

Also you would get fixed jumpjets on all mechs that use them. This would destroy some builds completely, but make other mechs shine.


To me that is a fair trade, but it is a very dramatic change to the game.

[Brody319]

Hillslam, on 02 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

[/size]
No, it isn't.

Its 64% to 36%

That's roughly 2 to 1.

Not even close, to close.

I don't think we will see how good or bad the clans are till CW starts. The last test they did was extremely short.