156 replies to this topic

[Molossian Dog]

00ohDstruct, on 04 December 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

....
New IS players need balanced because they are less experienced players on average than those who pilot Clan mechs (ELO findings, debates, ect).
...

There it is again. To think at least one thread could do without it was preposterous, I will admit.

00ohDstruct, on 04 December 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

The whiners won't be satisfied until MW:O is reduced to this.

Blue is clan, right?

Edited by Molossian Dog, 04 December 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[MerryIguana]

Clans were brutally good at launch and this vendetta mindset was born. Some people just cant let it go.

[The Boz]

00ohDstruct, on 04 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Best way to experience this is take a Trial Nova against a friend into a private match against an IS mech with meta or PPD. You'll be weaponless or dead because you'll be fighting not to overheat while keeping your crosshairs on a section trying to core it out...

BREAKING NEWS! TRIAL NON-TOP-TIER MECH CAN'T BEAT A METAMECH POWERHOUSE! More at eleven!

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 December 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Boy Boz, you just love to be confrontational with me on the forums.

I love it when people take things personal. And confrontational? Really?

[LordBraxton]

00ohDstruct, on 04 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

With respect, do you or have you piloted clan mechs? There is a reason for this issue. You mentioned that you see Clan mechs twist less than IS. Most Clan weapons need more "facetime" than IS ones, almost twice as much time in some cases. So factor in that clan mechs usually run very hot and need to cycle or group their fire on top of double burn times for their weapons... more often than not clan mechs HAVE to constantly face their targets to do all of their weapon damage. The rest of the time the weapon use is wasted trying to roll damage and spray painting the enemy (or friendly) mechs, terrain or sky.

Best way to experience this is take a Trial Nova against a friend into a private match against an IS mech with meta or PPD. You'll be weaponless or dead because you'll be fighting not to overheat while keeping your crosshairs on a section trying to core it out, and the only thing you'll have done is painted the other mech yellow. or maybe taken off an arm because IS can shoot and roll damage like mad.

I have all 3 stormcrows tricked out, so I know how the lasers work. I also learned quickly that, if youre recieveing incoming fire, you twist, even if your lasers are still discharging. Better to dodge\distribute that incoming damage and save your full damage for when you have a clean shot. Like I said, just because you CAN dish out the damage doesnt mean you SHOULD. Most of my IS builds are DPS builds. I watched a lot of hellbringers recently tunnel vision and get wrecked because of this. You have unlimited laser ammo, just sweep em to the side if someone starts shooting you. Good Clammers look like a lightshow because they end up twisting while firing lasers half the time.

[Peter2000]

In competitive play (and high level PUG queue), the DWF, TBR, and SCR are still the dominant 'Mechs in their weight class. Strong quirk buffs to IS options such as the BNC-3E, TDR-5SS, and HBK-P have cut the gap somewhat, and given IS players alternatives, but they are either not quite as strong or restricted to a single role, compared to the Clan options which can successfully fill 3 each. Why ? Because Clan Tech inherently conveys massive advantages for small disadvantages (Clan XLs can survive side loss, Clan weapons lighter and longer ranged, easier to squeeze in 2-crit DHS, free CASE, etc.).

IS/Clan balance is as close as it has ever been, but there are a few notable issues.
1. The advantages of Clan Tech still appear to slightly outweigh even the best quirk sets available to the IS.
2. Many mediocre IS 'Mechs got very mediocre quirks, and are still very mediocre.
3. A few Clan 'Mechs (notably the lights/IFR) are severely hurt by the restrictions (namely inability to swap engines, locked equipment on low-free-tonnage 'Mechs) of Clan Tech, without any positives to compensate.
4. Others (namely WHK, SMN, etc.) don't have quite the ability to benefit from Clan Tech as the dominant 3, and while they can compete with nearly any IS, they aren't Timberwolves.

The solutions are simple.
1/2. Better quirk buffs to IS, especially those that are still struggling. Specifically, keep in mind that range on lasers is very strong (due to the hitscan nature), and is comparable to a range AND speed buff on projectiles. Moreover, cooldown reduction on hot weapons is nearly meaningless, while heat reduction is invaluable. Cooldown reduction on cool weapons is fantastic.
3/4. Give some mild buffs to weaker Clan chassis, tied to omnipods that aren't as strong (the Adder and Kitfox for example are less bad than most people think, since at the very least 4xSSRM6 is fantastic at shutting down deadly IS lights, but struggle far more with the non-missile pods on).

For all these tweaks use the DWF/TBR/SCR as "baseline" top tier - trying to get other 'Mechs to their (unquirked) level via quirks, but not surpassing them.

If TTK is way too low (due to increased weapons performance), increase hp again by 25% or so (tweak until its about right).

Edited by Peter2000, 04 December 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Timuroslav]

To answer the topic at hand

Why Does everyone want to nerf the clans?

Several reasons.

1) Clans Ruined Table top forever for IS players. The company that made Table top never even tried to balance the game after they left. They just outmoded half their player base because they wanted them to buy the new stuff. So you have a very bitter older fan base out there.
A lot of my Unit members who played Table Top tell me "Don't buy that OP Clan garbage, we don't want this to end up like table top" before it was even released
And it was true. Upon release of Clan mechs, they started ******** on everyone. Now? not so much.


2) People perceive, that Battletech is about the Succession Wars. So they feel that clans should not have the presence it should. Why are we Stuck fighting the Clans in Mechwarrior? When the Battletech universe is so Much Much Much Bigger?

3) People are afraid of Clans being too strong. People who secretly want the clans to be OP scream canon canon canon! While people who like Canon but want a good game want balance. So it turns into a shouting contest in the forums

4) The Above average outliar mechs are being flocked to in order to do well. This includes the Timber, The Crow and Dire.
As a result it's harder to see or at least fairly observe the skill and balance of other clan mechs. When certain mechs can fulfill any role. Why play a Summoner when a Timber can do all the Summoner's roles better and have more potential for other roles?

5) People don't want this game to be ALL about the Clans. They want to play their Inner Sphere mechs without feeling outmoded.

6) Everyone is quick to defend their O.P. mech. yes, I'm talking to you Timber players. Because it has been PGI frequent problem over the years. "Don't nerf my mech, my mech is weak." Sandbagging and talking down your mech so it doesn't get the Nerf it needs to make the game fair. So this action alone has created more reasonable players to be more Verbal and outspoken about said mechs.

7) A Players base of some size, wants Clans mechs to be vastly better than it was in the Lore because they have the intuition that Clans are supposed to be better. Lore wise it makes sense, but it would mean separating Clan mechs from IS mechs in Queues because otherwise Solo queue is going to be All Clan mechs all the time

8) People want to play with their friends who have their own mech preference. In order to prevent ruining solo queue and increasing variety, Clan Mechs have to be of equal fire power as Inner Sphere mechs. Unless people want to separate the mechs in queue. Right now people don't want to have to make the decisions of "Do I want to play with my friends or do I want to play Clan mechs and win?"

So in reality there are too many reasons to want to nerf the Clans.

Edited by Timuroslav, 04 December 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

00ohDstruct, on 04 December 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

The whiners won't be satisfied until MW:O is reduced to this.

Combat was a great game! I always preferred Armored Ambush myself. It had dynamic terrain. It had trees (I think, very blocky) that blocked shots and slowed you down. Water slowed you down too. Ahhh Atari, a simpler time lol.

[Brody319]

Mad because bad.
The most experienced players were willing to buy clan mechs and thus knew how to pilot them faster and would stomp the newbs. So this lead to the mentality that Clan mechs are OP. which lead to nerfs, which lead to the clanners adapting, which lead to more nerfs. and now that we reached a tipping point where any more nerfs might send what is good in the clan spiraling downward into oblivion.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Mad because bad.
The most experienced players were willing to buy clan mechs and thus knew how to pilot them faster and would stomp the newbs. So this lead to the mentality that Clan mechs are OP. which lead to nerfs, which lead to the clanners adapting, which lead to more nerfs. and now that we reached a tipping point where any more nerfs might send what is good in the clan spiraling downward into oblivion.

Just to clarify, you are saying that former IS players who used to compete in the same Elo bracket as their brethren for years, suddenly bought Clan mechs and then stomped on their former compatriots in the same Elo bracket. If so, then you seem to confirm that clan mechs are indeed better than comparible IS mechs.

Or are you suggesting that when they bought Clan mechs their Elo was reset to newbie levels and they were fighting newbies.And if that is the case, mabey this can all be solved buy giving Clan mechs a 200 point Elo bump.

[xXBagheeraXx]

There is none really. Too many people staring at AlphaWhales and getting their faces eaten..Stop trading with direwhales and 80% of the "clan mechs r op nerf plz" comments will go away. The only build i will say that is overpowering is the 50point 2 gauss 2 ppc build, which after the ppc nerf only really works at shorter range, or in the hands of someone with really good aim. If said pilot is good enough to ring your bells with that config at 900meters, than he will probably still wreck you no matter you do to the weapons.

Timberwolves are simply good all round heavy mechs. Good survibability, workable hitboxes, good armament and good speed. That mech is not the posterchild of mechwarrior for no reason, she really IS good. Its not some omnipotent God mech tho, and is still very very killable.

Warhawks are pretty crap...only a few decent viable builds, ive only had luck running quad ppcs on my prime till the PPC nerf. That mech is going to be pretty useless until it gets PPC quirks. and an LRM boat out of my altB. Im actually very impressed with how well it carries LRMS, but it shares the same problem all clan lrm boats have...lose ANY section of your mech and you lose half or nearly all your ammuniton. i cant even so much as lose an arm and ive lost nearly all my combat effectiveness, so i have to keep it at the extreame edges of a fight if possible, not something i usually do in my IS fire support mechs as they are usually a lot more resilient to combat damage, or offer mobility in the form of jumpjets (catapults) or have a very low profile (stalker) that help with my survivability. But If im allowed to tag/narc/fire with impunity the damage and kills mount up incredibly fast...if i get the full load of lrms off and some decent laser fire in its an easy 1k damage game in this mech.

Stormcrows are just your average run of the mill mediums. Fast, fairly well armed but no jumpjets. Good but not great.

Thors? HAH

Novas...3hot5me. and mostly arm mounted weapons. easy to strip and render ineffective.

Rest of the mechs really dont jump out at me, besides the aforementioned hellbringer decent armament with ecm..and a massive ct...flooding an already fairly ecm heavy que with even more ecm mechs...

[Brody319]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 04 December 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Just to clarify, you are saying that former IS players who used to compete in the same Elo bracket as their brethren for years, suddenly bought Clan mechs and then stomped on their former compatriots in the same Elo bracket. If so, then you seem to confirm that clan mechs are indeed better than comparible IS mechs.

Or are you suggesting that when they bought Clan mechs their Elo was reset to newbie levels and they were fighting newbies.And if that is the case, mabey this can all be solved buy giving Clan mechs a 200 point Elo bump.

No, The people who bought the first clan mechs were probably really good players who had played the game for a long time. When they all switched to clan mechs, their enemies of equal skill didn't know how to take them down, and newer players with less skill who probably would have been killed by them anyway, got rofl stomped.

Plus PGI has already said the people with clan mechs when they turn on Clan Vs IS tend to have a much higher ELO than the IS.

[Moonlander]

I've seen just as many terrible TBRs, DWFs and SCRs as I have amazing ON1s, HGNs and VNDs... I play both Clan and IS mechs every day, all day. I have my favorites and least favorites. I don't gravitate towards a certain mech on either side. I've had far more 1k matches in my HBR than I have my TBR. I don't know why. My gameplay doesn't change. Probably because when people see a TBR they immediately focus it? Just like they do a DWF?

We as a whole need to stop calling for nerfs on everything and seek more buffs and other avenues of balance. Only we can make stuff like that happen. We need to work on our delivery of proposed ideas and how we react when we're upset because a mech appears to be OP, whether it is or not on paper. It's all up to us really... but just being negative and calling the Dev's idiots all the time won't help.

I'm not saying anyone here is doing that... and I know not everyone is rude when it comes to this. I've also read hundreds of pages since I joined, full of people proposing great fixes along the lines of buffs to other chassis or small mechanic tweaks. We have a lot of really talented people who spend a lot of their time being passionate about MWO. We just need better delivery and more respect for each other as human beings.

The Dev's are obviously listening to people these days... lets use this to make everything better!

[xXBagheeraXx]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Mad because bad.
The most experienced players were willing to buy clan mechs and thus knew how to pilot them faster and would stomp the newbs. So this lead to the mentality that Clan mechs are OP. which lead to nerfs, which lead to the clanners adapting, which lead to more nerfs. and now that we reached a tipping point where any more nerfs might send what is good in the clan spiraling downward into oblivion.

Kinda this...I already had the metawhale build in my head before i even had my invasion pack in my garage,and how i was going to use it. and exactly WHY it was going to work well...

Alpine was always in the que.

Before clan mechs hit, I had an Erppc/gauss atlas K that wrecked faces. People always stare at me at long range, why not take advantage of it?

[xXBagheeraXx]

Moonlander, on 04 December 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

I've seen just as many terrible TBRs, DWFs and SCRs as I have amazing ON1s, HGNs and VNDs... I play both Clan and IS mechs every day, all day. I have my favorites and least favorites. I don't gravitate towards a certain mech on either side. I've had far more 1k matches in my HBR than I have my TBR. I don't know why. My gameplay doesn't change. Probably because when people see a TBR they immediately focus it? Just like they do a DWF?

We as a whole need to stop calling for nerfs on everything and seek more buffs and other avenues of balance. Only we can make stuff like that happen. We need to work on our delivery of proposed ideas and how we react when we're upset because a mech appears to be OP, whether it is or not on paper. It's all up to us really... but just being negative and calling the Dev's idiots all the time won't help.

I'm not saying anyone here is doing that... and I know not everyone is rude when it comes to this. I've also read hundreds of pages since I joined, full of people proposing great fixes along the lines of buffs to other chassis or small mechanic tweaks. We have a lot of really talented people who spend a lot of their time being passionate about MWO. We just need better delivery and more respect for each other as human beings.

The Dev's are obviously listening to people these days... lets use this to make everything better!

All of this...I would love to have some buffs given to highlanders to make them viable again....I just sold my old shotgun 733C today. I'm sad...

[KharnZor]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 December 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

All of this...I would love to have some buffs given to highlanders to make them viable again....I just sold my old shotgun 733C today. I'm sad...

I just get depressed when i look at mine

[xXBagheeraXx]

KharnZor, on 04 December 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I just get depressed when i look at mine

The money is going towards my Wubbshee, so it will be well spent.

[Water Bear]

Well, before quirks and patches to clan weapons, they were vastly better.

In table top, as in the first release of clan mechs in this game, clan mechs had far better XL engines, double heat sinks, and weapons that could weigh half as much (clan LRM 20 weighed half as much) or do more damage at longer, or both.

Honestly, I think clan mechs were supposed to be the over powered weapons of the bad guys (kind of like how bad guys on tv shows always show up stronger than the heros). These things were really not balanced for pvp play at all.

Now that we have qwerks and some clan nerfs, things seem a lot closer in MWO. The Dire Whale, Timber Wolf, and Storm Crow are still the best mechs in their respective weight classes, though.

[-Halcyon-]

Most players don't bother to take advantage of IS quirks and adjust their play style.
They think that one play style fits all mechs.

Then a clan wrecks them and they cry nerf.

[KharnZor]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 December 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

The money is going towards my Wubbshee, so it will be well spent.

I'm saving for some wubbshee action myself right now.
*shakes fist* damn you Mgrall

[Moonlander]

xXBagheeraXx, on 04 December 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

All of this...I would love to have some buffs given to highlanders to make them viable again....I just sold my old shotgun 733C today. I'm sad...

Funny thing, 733C was the very first mech I aquired with my Cadet Bonus cbills. Hah! I no longer have it. I moved on to an Atlas and have enjoyed the game much more since. One of these days I'll pick up 3 of the chassis and keep them... at the time tho, if I had kept piloting that mech... I don't think I would of kept playing....