124 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

N0MAD, on 04 December 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

Telling this majority of players they can only play mechs of a certain size or a limited drop deck would basically kill CW.
Even the 240 is going to be to restrictive to most casual gamers, yes i know that its been stated that CW is for ummm the most ardent no holds barred but again im going to mention that the % of hardcore team players is the smaller percentage of the player base, start putting in to many restrictions to please a few you will lose the mass.

This is a valid point.

However, I'd like to think that it would offset by actually giving poorer/newer players an easier entry point into CW. If they want to wade in and haven't had time to grind very long, and only have lights or mediums to start with, there will be planets dominated by light/medium combat to give them a higher chance of success. Instead of dumping them into the 240-ton pool, which will be 50% assaults and Timberwolves. Oy vey.

(It's true that they'll still face SOME assaults and heavies and need to avoid stupidity, but I'm very interested to see the dynamics that develop when the majority of the assault mechs' targets are small and moving. I think a lot of builds would suddenly find themselves useless.)

And again, this is only advisable for SOME planets. A lot would still allow the full 240. And even with these suggested lower limits, you're still allowed to bring any mech you want. Perhaps not all in the same match, and perhaps with a few more lights in your deck than you'd prefer...but I can't help but feel the alternative is going to be just as shallow as the pugs currently are.

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I just think if there is no distinction between planets besides their location then why place random weight limits?

Well, it would be a tad artificial, true. But since the dynamic logistics you suggested aren't coming for a while, I just thought this was a nice simple way to integrate SOME variation between planets in the meantime.

Greenjulius, on 04 December 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

The result of a tonnage reduction to ~175 is turning clan teams into stormcrows backed up by lights. It's an interesting idea, but we all know what will happen. Shadowhawks vs Stormcrows 50% of the time, with lights sprinkled in as filler. Most likely kitfoxes and firestarters.

The number of SSRM6 boating stormcrows would be epic, as they would rarely need to worry about the counter to SSRM spam; heavies and assaults.

Well, part of the time, yes. But I seriously doubt we'd see the last of Timberwolves or Dire Wolves even on the backwater planets. If we do, great - lore accomplished. It'll add variation - "Oh, this planet is a 240 limit, we'll expect to see heavier forces there; bring this or that." But even if we don't, like I said above, the assaults will have become a rarity, and you'll have created a "wading pool" for CW newbies. (As much as the hardcores don't want them playing, I don't really think beggars can be choosers.)

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 04 December 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Karl Marlow]

To be clear I am wanting to see how the currently planned limitations pan out before I start demanding changes.

That being said I don't mind the idea of changing up drop weights for different planets. However when you start getting into these low numbers you really start stepping on the toes of assault pilots. What would really be nice is if a group can pool their tonnages when making their drop decks. That way even on low tonnage worlds you would still see the occasional Assault mech.

That is for a future time though. Right now I just want CW to get out of the gate so we can start playing with it and see what doe and doesnt work.

[Johnny Z]

Rebas Kradd, on 04 December 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

This is a valid point.

However, I'd like to think that it would offset by actually giving poorer/newer players an easier entry point into CW. If they want to wade in and haven't had time to grind very long, and only have lights or mediums to start with, there will be planets dominated by light/medium combat to give them a higher chance of success. Instead of dumping them into the 240-ton pool, which will be 50% assaults and Timberwolves. Oy vey.

(It's true that they'll still face SOME assaults and heavies and need to avoid stupidity, but I'm very interested to see the dynamics that develop when the majority of the assault mechs' targets are small and moving. I think a lot of builds would suddenly find themselves useless.)

And again, this is only advisable for SOME planets. A lot would still allow the full 240. And even with these suggested lower limits, you're still allowed to bring any mech you want. Perhaps not all in the same match, and perhaps with a few more lights in your deck than you'd prefer...but I can't help but feel the alternative is going to be just as shallow as the pugs currently are.




Well, it would be a tad artificial, true. But since the dynamic logistics you suggested aren't coming for a while, I just thought this was a nice simple way to integrate SOME variation between planets in the meantime.



Well, part of the time, yes. But I seriously doubt we'd see the last of Timberwolves or Dire Wolves even on the backwater planets. If we do, great - lore accomplished. It'll add variation - "Oh, this planet is a 240 limit, we'll expect to see heavier forces there; bring this or that." But even if we don't, like I said above, the assaults will have become a rarity, and you'll have created a "wading pool" for CW newbies. (As much as the hardcores don't want them playing, I don't really think beggars can be choosers.)

Seriously great points. A great way to add more depth to the star map and easily, as well as the bonus for players who are newer and working with mediums and lights because they are cheaper. Impressive and simple.

[Duke Nedo]

Approved! It really doesn't add restrictions since bigger drop-decks would still be there for the bigger battles. Imo this just adds variety and that will make one use more of the mechs in the mechbay over many fights. There will just be more combinations you will want to use.

Smaller planets would also make tonnage matter more, effectively "buffing" the importance of the lower end mechs in each class.

Thumbs up!

[Golden Vulf]

Draconis Combine and Lyran Commonwealth don't see how this is lore at all.

[Joe Mallad]

I'm just going to add... It was already said in the town hall meeting that it may not start off right out the gate, but they "PGI" intends to make it so that not all planets have the same drop deck limitations.

The lowest and highest it will go "as of right now" is 140 to 240. But some planets could have tonnage limits anywhere between that. Once the system is in place an they are happy with it, we will not always be able to go into a match with a drop limit of max 240. So it's probably best to get a few different drop decks of versions tonnages made up and at least written down to be ready for this. I have right now, 16 different drop decks on paper that I have ready just in case we get any number of different tonnage limits

[Darlith]

Stupid post got eaten, try again.

It seems that many of your lower limits are set up to avoid some clan mech combinations you don't wish to see on the field which seems like a poor way to go about balance. After all the 240 ton current limit, though it does block a couple of the loadouts people would rather not face on the battlefield (2 dires with some throwaway mechs or 3 timbers plus a throwaway) it is based on the mathmatical average of mech tonnages.

From a personal standpoint I would hate any limit under 200 tons as the lightest mechs I own are the 50ton cents and hunches. Which would leave me having to use trial lights for filler, I suck bad enough in lights without them being an unmastered chassis as well. Now I could learn to like blackjacks I suppose to fit into the 180 ton bracket there, or even (shudder) cicadas. Or maybe I'd pickup lights later for filler and resent the guy who put a sub-200ton limit on a planet the whole time I'm in one.

From a lore standpoint it is a decent way to get people into more lights and mediums I suppose without adding too many artifical limitations into the game or attempting to rewrite the whole game from the ground up. So bravo from that end of the game.

So I would cautiously support the idea of lower weight limits on some planets, but I think you might have to also consider the idea of higher weight limits on planets as you get closer to the inner ones. After all wouldn't you throw your best and most powerful mechs into the last defenses of your homeworld? or perhaps even asymmetric limits for lore reasons (supply lines make it hard to drop many heavier mechs the further from home you are, while the defenders can afford to throw that assault lance in). Mind you that would cause a ***** storm of epic proportions if the clan got deeper into IS territory and all of a sudden the clans could only drop 200 tons or less and the IS could field 300 tons, even though it could be fun at times.

[Joe Mallad]

I do think maybe there needs to be like special events on some weekends or this day or that day for CW... Where say we get a challenge as one side or the other.

Example. Challenge: on "this day" "these 5 planets" will have drop limits of 200 to 300 for attackers and 160 to 250 for defenders. Is this unbalanced? Yes it is. But its a challenge. The attacked now can field larger weight lances, meaning they could bring more assaults and heavies to the battle as a show of superior resources. The catch is, the defenders get to upgrade a few base defenses for free. If the attackers can win and destroy the more heavily fortified base defenses, they get extra rewards. If the defending lighter forces can hold off the heavier attackers, they get extra awards.

Or even an event where on select planets both the attacking and defending players (each player) gets a random tonnage limit for that planet.

So as an example: 12 men are attacking and each man gets a random drop limit.
Man 1: 140 to 240
Man 2: 145 to 200
Man 3: 200 to 300
Man 4: 140 to 185
And so on... The same for the defending side. This particular set of planets has this random drop limit for this weekend. Anyone attacking or defending will have to deal with it.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 05 December 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

I´ll agree with anything that makes each planet a different experience.

Different drop deck limits.
Different map rotation.
Special terrain/scenarios.
More or less victories/tokens neccessary to conquer said world.
Different worlds affecting item/mech pricing.

Anything that breaks up the vanilla/deathmatch experience that threatens to leak into CW.

Good idea Rebas Kradd.

N0MAD, on 04 December 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

...
Even the 240 is going to be to restrictive to most casual gamers...

While true I think the "bring an optimized/mastered dropdeck full of Timberderps or go home" approach also hurts casual or new players. Offering a niche in CW where you can dare to play as a player who hasn´t yet a hangar full of the most costly stuff is a good idea.

If you scale rewards for fighting on such secondary theatres accordingly you could actually encourage die-hard players and experienced units to stick to the primary target worlds. Which fits nicely into common sense and lore at the same time.

EDIT: Oops. Rebas actually already said that. Move on, nothing to see in this post.

Edited by Molossian Dog, 05 December 2014 - 04:29 AM.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

I've been a proponent of a sliding scale for drop deck weight since they first started releasing details about community warfare. I'd like to see them go with something like this.

You can make 240 your most common drop weight, but to throw some variety in drop the weight a bit from time to time.(or even rarely increase it) Playing the same 4 or 5 mechs is going to get stale pretty quick. and moving the drop weight around a bit will give some variety without much development time.

[Mindwipe]

I like the idea in principle but see a few problems with it, some of which are probably my own views. I've never liked PGI's stance (perhaps now changed?) that assaults are the end game. For one thing it makes an assault mech pilot feel entitled that they should be able to kill lights and mediums by default. I much prefer the all Mechs are equal idea, even if it's flawed.

In tabletop, lights and mediums are common due to cost and production ability, cost still applies in MWO, to a point, production doesn't. But in TT lights especially can be pretty much garbage. Mediums can be pretty good but overall an assault WILL crush a light or medium easily even without taking into consideration pilot skill which would usually favour the assault.

So if MWO is more of an all chassis are competitive ideal, than the TT 30:40:20:10 ratio of weight classes isn't really applicable.

That's even before taking into consideration the skill difference. It's a vastly difference experience in MWO playing a heavy or assault over a light. Especially on the IS side. I play lights since I like the speed, I have to accept one shot death occasionally in exchange. Asking an assault pilot to have to play several rounds in a light is pretty much just throwaway and not likely to help the team much anyway. This become a huge advantage to those that can play the full range of weight classes well. I salute those of you that can.

Plus if you're going to hammer at the top end, in all fairness you need to go the other way. For instance, Tamar is being attacked by the Clans. Since it's a major capital, both sides are all in. drop decks are 175+ now. Now light pilots are forced into the heavier chassis. It's only fair.

I absolutely love the idea of variable drop sizes overall though, I'm just not really a fan of limiting player choices too much. I'm with one of the previous posters that thinks the smaller drops would just be Clan streakboats mopping up the IS again and again, and Clans currently have very limited options for Mechs. Would we see anything other than Stormcrows and ECM Kit Foxes on the Clan side?

[Molossian Dog]

Mindwipe, on 05 December 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

...
Plus if you're going to hammer at the top end, in all fairness you need to go the other way. For instance, Tamar is being attacked by the Clans. Since it's a major capital, both sides are all in. drop decks are 175+ now. Now light pilots are forced into the heavier chassis. It's only fair.
...

I agree with that. Drop Deck upper and lower limits can actually serve to emulate the difference between between constant skirmishing and raiding (on a backwater world or in preparation of a bigger campaign on a more developed world) and set piece huge battles for strategically important worlds.

It is a simple method, which is a huge advantage.

[Tombstoner]

Only one flaw in this concept

"If you want to remain somewhat true to lore, it really is just ludicrous that CW should allow even half a match to be assaults. They should be a rarity on the battlefield."

and that is - A planetary invasion justifies using assault mechs. You are correct in that you don't use rare equipment to hunt periphery rats. However without some form of attrition or resource allocation then assaults will remain artificially high.

I agree that it seems out of place for BT but MWO it isn't... because it limits a players fun for an arbitrary reason. If however CW has resources allocation then high tonnage mech use has a premium. untill that time what we see in pugs matches can be considered historic by IS standards, for us its going to be the norm.

[RockmachinE]

I like the idea of small deck sizes on certain planets, it would mean more variety and improve gameplay diversity. This would be welcome.

[Brody319]

I would say leave it as 140 - 240 till we get a logistical reason for the weight cap. gives them a chance to balance the current model before trying to mix it up.

[Joe Mallad]

I agree that once we get more maps and more planets, if an attack is happening on some back water planet that has a small settlement on or in the grand scheme of things, isn't no where near as important as a capital planet... I'd expect there to be smaller lighter gerrison forces stationed there and attacking forces to also be lighter faster quick reaction forces that are prime for wide open hit and run attacks. So I'd expect drop limits to be smaller to give that feeling of we don't need big slow mechs to take this planet and or... We don't want to have the big slow mechs on this planet because if the wide open terrain which is not suitable for large slow mechs to be in.

BUT... I you are attackin or defending a large major capital type world, where you have dense cities and space ports and so on, I'd expect drop deck limits to be higher so people can bring large heavy and Assault mechs as these mechs would be the main forces is expect to be protecting pivotal worlds like this. Yeah the med and light mechs would be there too... But in those tight cramped settings where you are looking to brawl in the streets and over major complexes, I want my heavy and assaults that can trudge through the streets ripping into anything caught in their sight lol.

[Remarius]

If you ban mechs like Spiders, Firestarters, Jenners etc then maybe as otherwise its just a walk over at 175 tons as the clan lights are awful in comparison. IS can easily put together a sick drop deck at 140 but imagine a 140 clan deck......

What would you end up with using to fill 175 - stormcrow, ice ferret x 2 and a Kitfox or 2 Stormcrows, an adder and a Kitfox?

Its not even a contest as theres no good sub 55 ton Clan mechs. People like me might enjoy or defend one of them out of affection but post quirks its no contest when as IS I can just dopr with 4 x FS9-A's etc.

Basically the lighter the deck the more tilted to IS it gets, the heavier the more tilted to clans. Even post quirks thats slightly arguable now as I have no problem killing Timberwolves and Stormcrows in my Dragons.

PS: I'm IS.....

[Mindwipe]

Remarius, on 05 December 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

If you ban mechs like Spiders, Firestarters, Jenners etc then maybe as otherwise its just a walk over at 175 tons as the clan lights are awful in comparison. IS can easily put together a sick drop deck at 140 but imagine a 140 clan deck......

As an IS light pilot, I'd not want to fight the Clans at the lower tonnage. If I were a Clanner, it would be CAP, and Streaks. The IS would fall apart. Plus the IS forces would need better coordination to work with disparate speeds. Stormcrows, Adders, and Kit Foxes all move the same and would be the best choice. You can't match IS lights with the Lynx or Ferret so don't try, form up and meet any light with a hundred SSRM's. That's all you really need. Even IS mediums will come apart quickly.

It doesn't invalidate your point that Clans will have poor choices, just that those choices aren't as bad as many think under these restrictions. The bitter irony of trying to get BattleTech flavor, is that going this route would actually encourage the Clanners to focus fire Streaks at a Mech to quickly kill it and the IS would want single duels where they can use mobility to carry the day. Funny how getting one honestly trivial piece of 'canon lore' going would invalidate the other.

[Novakaine]

It's a ok idea overall.
However I think adding a certain amount of repair time to the deck, would add a bit more realism.
More damage more repair time.
Use the next mech.
A severely damage mech should not be available for very next drop - except at a price.
This way no one will be restricted only constrained for a short period of time.
No constant wave of boomboxes and ultra auto-whales to contend with.
The IS and the Clans both had logistical problems.

Edited by Novakaine, 05 December 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Darlith, on 05 December 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

So I would cautiously support the idea of lower weight limits on some planets, but I think you might have to also consider the idea of higher weight limits on planets as you get closer to the inner ones. After all wouldn't you throw your best and most powerful mechs into the last defenses of your homeworld? or perhaps even asymmetric limits for lore reasons (supply lines make it hard to drop many heavier mechs the further from home you are, while the defenders can afford to throw that assault lance in). Mind you that would cause a ***** storm of epic proportions if the clan got deeper into IS territory and all of a sudden the clans could only drop 200 tons or less and the IS could field 300 tons, even though it could be fun at times.

Oh, absolutely, the crucial planets and battles should retain the 240 limit. You'd expect battles over key factories or large population areas to see your best forces, including Dire Wolves and Timberwolves. That makes perfect sense. But not every world carries the same importance. SOME periphery planets should not be seeing 50% Timberwolves, which you're inevitably going to have when HoL drops to defend it.

I like the strategy offered by variable dropdeck limits. Imagine two different approach routes to a critical world, one consisting of three 240-limit worlds, another consisting of three worlds with 195 tons as limits. You get to choose a route based on the skill of your group and the expected resistance of the enemy. That's the kind of CW I'd like to see.

Quote

What would you end up with using to fill 175 - stormcrow, ice ferret x 2 and a Kitfox or 2 Stormcrows, an adder and a Kitfox?

Its not even a contest as theres no good sub 55 ton Clan mechs. People like me might enjoy or defend one of them out of affection but post quirks its no contest when as IS I can just dopr with 4 x FS9-A's etc.

175 mechs would still allow players to use a Dire Wolf if they wanted; they'd just need to bring three Mist Lynxes, and I do suspect we'd see some of that. Using a Timberwolf (arguably superior due to its mobility) would allow more freedom in a drop deck. But I admit that 175 might be pretty restrictive. 195 would still be a vast improvement for me. It's not about the min; it's about the max, and anything over 195 brings a LOT more firepower into the game.

Some players might not like being restricted and forced into lights. But at least being forced into lights is true to lore. After all, this is the mode for the hardcore. They've already set 3PV to "OFF" for CW play. And in the end, forcing a few people into lights has an added benefit: it evens the playing field a little bit for the newer and poorer players, a group that PGI really can't afford to leave out in the cold.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 05 December 2014 - 10:56 AM.