33 replies to this topic

[no1337]

Hu guys,

after 100 patches and changes, is it still worth it to use artemis on 3x lrm20 launchers for mostly indirect fire or better 1x lrm5 + lrm20 without?

Wehre can I find the actual stants of artemis again?

Cheers

No1337

[deadmedo]

For lrm20 and lrm15 artemis is a must. For lrm 5 and 10 its not so important although it is nice to have it if you have space

[Captain Stiffy]

Artemis decreases locking time by 50%. That's it. So it's up to you based on playstyle and skill.

[no1337]

cheers.

[ALKALIN3]

Also keep in mind...if you don't have visual on the targeted mech, you don't get the benefit of the artemis upgrade.

http://mwo.gamepedia.../Artemis_IV_FCS

[Diznitch]

I thought it also tightened the spread? That's why deadmedo said it's good for LRM15 and 20's cause you want those to tighten up.

[Captain Stiffy]

Diznitch, on 05 December 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

I thought it also tightened the spread? That's why deadmedo said it's good for LRM15 and 20's cause you want those to tighten up.

Nope.

[Diznitch]

NVM. I guess only SRM spreads are tightened... I want to know what improved "tracking strength" is though... heh

Edited by Diznitch, 05 December 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Khobai]

artemis is a waste

tag basically does the same thing for only 1 ton

[deadmedo]

Diznitch, on 05 December 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

I thought it also tightened the spread? That's why deadmedo said it's good for LRM15 and 20's cause you want those to tighten up.

Damm I thought that too . I guess im wrong :/


EDIT:

Still I dont think its a waste. I had better results with artemis then without.

Edited by deadmedo, 05 December 2014 - 06:49 PM.

[zortesh]

Artemis does tighten spread it just only does it if you have los during some point on the target.

I think the lock speed is always, but i'm not sure.

Regardless the tighter spread is the more useful bonus.

Artemis is iffy on usefulness, if you have 3+ launchers, or only fire indirectly its basically a horrible waste.

see my lrm guide book for info on when and when not artemis is useful.

[Golden Vulf]

Khobai, on 05 December 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

artemis is a waste

tag basically does the same thing for only 1 ton

Some mechs don't have the extra energy hard point. And if you only have a single launcher, then Artemis is only 1 extra ton anyway. Also, tag doesn't help SRMs.

Looking at YOU, Zeus!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 05 December 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[Kiiyor]

zortesh, on 05 December 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Artemis does tighten spread it just only does it if you have los during some point on the target.

This.

There was a dev post about it waaay back. Some of the tech negates each other - i.e. TAG bonuses do not stack with artemis with LOS, or some such.

Time to test my search-fu.

Edit: here we go:

Spoiler

https://mwomercs.com...ch-notes-10142/

Quote

Artemis IV FCS Upgrade

• Artemis improves the grouping size of LRM and SRM volleys.
  
• Artemis improves the lock on time and tracking strength of LRMs
  
• Artemis does NOT add guidance to SRMs.

I'm still searching for the post that was made regarding how they work with indirect fire, TAG and NARC. I recall there were pretty pictures involved. Stay tuned.

Edit 2: Dev post from thread below:

https://mwomercs.com...01-tag-artemis/

Thomas Dziegielewski said:

TAG and ArtemisIV Stack.
however
ArtemisIV trumps NARC.

Still looking for the full dev post. Hmm, the above is from feb2013, actually. Might not be relevant.

Back to searchin'.

Edit3: A breakdown post from the devs:

https://mwomercs.com...18#entry1936618

Quote

WEAPON LOCK TIME WITH TAG, NARC and ArtemisIV

TAG decreases weapon lock time by 50%
NARC decreases weapon lock time by 50%
ArtemisIV decreases weapon lock time by 50%

ArtemisIV has to have line of sight with the target in order to grant any bonuses

TAG and ArtemisIV work together to decrease weapon lock time by 75%

TAG and NARC work together to decrease weapon lock time by 75%

ArtemisIV will always replace any bonuses from NARC. Even if Artemis does not have line of sight.



MISSILE TRACKING BONUS WITH TAG, NARC and ArtemisIV

Tracking helps missiles retain lock on a target. It helps a little with stationary targets but it is mainly used to control the hit % on moving targets.

It follows the same rules as above with weapon lock time.

TAG and NARC work together.
TAG and ArtemisIV (with line of sight) work together.
ArtemisIV trumps NARC.

AAargh! Where the hell s the post with the pretty pictures? My Search-fu needs some time in the hyperbolic time chamber. I WILL CONTINUE.

EDIT4:

Ok, here are the numbers, methinks. From the below thread:

https://mwomercs.com...rc-and-artemis/

As I recall, Gauvan's SCIENCE! seems to ring true from the elusive command post I'm basing this off. The command post had a pictoral representation of missile arcs and the like, discussed missile arcs from direct and indirect positions, and provided some numbers. Buggered if I can find it though. Anyhoo:

Gauvan, on 20 October 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Artemis IV Fire Control System

Artemis is a Missile-related upgrade found in the mechlab upgrades menu. Adding Artemis to a mech changes all LRMs and SRMs on the mech to a new type (LRM + Artemis and SRM + Artemis). Artemis has no effect on SSRMs. [Or, at least, it shouldn't. I belive there is a low priority bug that reduces SSRM lock-on time when Artemis is installed.]

Artemis Missile systems weigh one more ton and require one more critical slot to fit. They also require Artemis ammo--this should be the only ammo type presented if Artemis is installed. Artemis ammo weighs the same as non-Artemis.

Artemis provides a benefit to the firing mech similar to the effects of a Narc’d target. Artemis projectiles are more tightly clustered and so deliver more damage to the target (this affects SRMs as well). The spread of Artemis Missile weapons is 75% that of normal. Targeting time and target decay are reduced [need to verify this ]. However, the Artemis effect is only included when the mech with Artemis has line-of-sight with the target themselves. Indirect fire using a team member’s line-of-sight does not benefit from Artemis.


How Artemis, Narc, and TAG interact

Artemis, Narc, and TAG (described fully in the Energy article) all provide benefits that relate to targeting and the use of Missile weapons. These three systems interact in the follow ways:

• Artemis and TAG effects stack. Artemis and Narc do not stack.
  
• TAG and Artemis effects stack. TAG and Narc effects stack.
  
• Narc and TAG effects stack. Narc and Artemis do not stack.

So it is only possible to gain the benefit of, at most, two of the three related systems.


MWO calculates stacked negative bonuses by multiplying the percentage effects and applying the result. If three bonuses affect the same thing, and one provides a -40% effect, the second a -20% effect, the last a -10% effect, the total effect is a -56.8% reduction.

The math works like this. A -40% bonus reduces the thing to 60%, a -20% bonus reduces it to 80%, and a -10% bonus reduces it to 90%. 60% * 80% * 90% = 43.2%. Subtracting this from 100% gives the combined effect (100% - 43.2% = 56.8%).

Positive bonuses are added then applied. A +40%, +20% and +10% set of bonuses result in a +70% effect.

So, for Artemis, Narc and TAG:

Artemis + TAG:

• Time to lock onto target: (50% + 50%): 25% of normal
  
• Missile spread: (67% + 75%): 50.3% of normal

TAG + Narc

• Time to lock onto target: (50% + 75%): 62.5% of normal
  
• Missile spread: (75% + 75%): 56.3% of normal

Note that BAP, Command Consoles, and Targeting Computers (all discussed in the article on Equipment) provide targeting bonuses, but these bonuses are to targeting range and the speed for detailed target info gathering. These effects act in parallel to the Artemis+Narc+TAG effects, but do not overlap.

So there you have it.

The above bit doesn't mention missile tracking however, which is also strengthened by TAG and Artemis:

Quote

MISSILE TRACKING BONUS WITH TAG, NARC and ArtemisIV

Tracking helps missiles retain lock on a target. It helps a little with stationary targets but it is mainly used to control the hit % on moving targets.

It follows the same rules as above with weapon lock time.

TAG and NARC work together.
TAG and ArtemisIV (with line of sight) work together.
ArtemisIV trumps NARC.

So:

Both Artemis and TAG decrease missile spread by themselves, and significantly when used together. Artemis and TAG also increase missile tracking by themselves (Artemis requires LOS for this) and stack when used together.

So HECK YES, Artemis is worth it, but most of the bonuses require LOS.

Edited by Kiiyor, 05 December 2014 - 08:04 PM.

[Koniving]

Diznitch, on 05 December 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

NVM. I guess only SRM spreads are tightened... I want to know what improved "tracking strength" is though... heh

This is a necro and a half, but... didn't see the answer actually given.

Tracking strength (for those being directed to it) is the frequency the missile will make course corrections. If the missile normally makes 8 course corrections, an additional 50% tracking strength gives it 12 course corrections.

[Lykaon]

no1337, on 05 December 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Hu guys,

after 100 patches and changes, is it still worth it to use artemis on 3x lrm20 launchers for mostly indirect fire or better 1x lrm5 + lrm20 without?

Wehre can I find the actual stants of artemis again?

Cheers

No1337

For mostly indirect fire...nope. Not worth it. Artemis does nothing without direct LOS to the target. More ammo would suit you better for dealing more damage per match than Artemis for "mostly" indirect fire.

Also are the launchers clan or I.S. tech?

With the lighter and smaller clan tech options you have a great deal more "wiggle" room to use artemis than with the bulky I.S. tech.

These days with another round of LRM nerfs and Artemis nerfs... I would reconsider using LRMs at all at this point if you are a primarily an I.S. mech pilot. The Clans can still use them due to having the capacity to mount a good number of LRM tubes and still have considerable direct fire weapons as well. But if you are a Clan pilot...ATMs!


"ArtemisIV will always replace any bonuses from NARC. Even if Artemis does not have line of sight."

This bit of info taken from a dev post on LRM mechnaics is another point against Aretmis use if you are primarily using indirect fire.

What this means is since Artemis requires LOS to grant ANY bonus the bonuses NARC would have given you are replaced with the Artemis bonuses and then negated if you have no direct LOS.

So if you have Artemis you will never have either Artemis or NARC bonuses for indirect fire.

Essentially a NARC'ed target targeted indirectly by an Artemis LRM launcher will only gain the benefit of the target feed from the attached NARC and not the lock speed or spread bonuses from either Artemis or NARC.

Edited by Lykaon, 23 October 2017 - 11:30 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 05 December 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

artemis is a waste

tag basically does the same thing for only 1 ton

Yeah, but it doesn't emit a "Please Kill Me" beam, and is limited by a hardpoint.

[JediPanther]

Lrms have never been worth it with the most direct and indirect nerfs totaling over thirty-fivie. Unless you can boat 40-80 salvo lrms they are not worth the tonnage wasted especially on is mechs.

[InvictusLee]

I've actually tried different builds with 4 LRM 20's, both with art and without.

Without I did alot of dmg, but got no kills. Spreads damage way too much.
With Artemis, I can get alot more kills, and do triple the dmg.

[Shifty McSwift]

zortesh, on 05 December 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Artemis does tighten spread it just only does it if you have los during some point on the target.

I think the lock speed is always, but i'm not sure.

Regardless the tighter spread is the more useful bonus.

Artemis is iffy on usefulness, if you have 3+ launchers, or only fire indirectly its basically a horrible waste.

see my lrm guide book for info on when and when not artemis is useful.

Yeah that's what I thought, it doesn't directly decrease spread, rather it alters the flight path in a way that makes the missiles hit more effectively, which is basically spread but slightly better?

[Trissila]

Shifty McSwift, on 23 October 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Yeah that's what I thought, it doesn't directly decrease spread, rather it alters the flight path in a way that makes the missiles hit more effectively, which is basically spread but slightly better?

It increases tracking strength (how well the missiles follow the target, I.E. number of hits) AND reduces spread (how tightly-grouped the missiles are, I.E. how many hit the same component instead of spreading the hits around the 'mech).

They nerfed the spread-reducing property of it, but it's still there. And as far as LRMs are concerned, less spread is always better. Always.

Artemis' usefulness for SRMs is now dubious, but in the neverending quest to make your LRMs suck less and be less of a liability for your team, ANY spread reduction is good spread reduction. Artemis + TAG on big launchers puts in some work.