99 replies to this topic

[Voyager I]

Having done a bit of browsing, it's come to my notice that some of the default loadouts on a few mechs are more or less objectively terrible. I'm not talking about debatable points, like how the Stalker might be better off it focused its loadout on a particular range instead of having a different weapons system for ever situation. I'm talking about configurations that just flat-out suck.

Thank goodness for the mechlab, because some frames wouldn't have a hope without it. We've got two main culprits here, for the time being.


The DRG-1N Dragon

There are plenty of things to like about the basic framework of the Dragon. As far as Heavies go, it's quite athletic, capable of cruising along at speeds rivaling Mediums. As a matter of fact, it's actually faster than half the Mediums we have in the game so far. It also has a nice spread of hardpoints, capable of mounting ballistics, missiles, and energy weapons all at the same time. It can't boat out on any one type of weapon, but that diversity should allow it to always have a tool for the job while running a nice balance between heat buildup and ammo concerns. The Dragon, from what we've seen, is a chassis with plenty of potential.

The problem lies in its execution. The DRG-1N just doesn't have the goods for a 60 tonner. One AC-5 isn't scary. When that's the primary armament on a Heavy Mech, it's practically a punchline. This thing should have the potential to be a lot better than it is, but as it stands it simply does not belong on the battlefield. The stock Dragon is outgunned by every Medium other than the Cicada. The Centurion literally has the exact same loadout with a bigger Autocannon, despite being 10 tons lighter.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy the Dragon. I'm just saying please, for the sake of yourself and all your future teammates, drop that baby into the mech bay and put some real weapons on it before you click "Launch".




The CDA-2A Cicada

Remember the only Medium mech that can't outshoot a Dragon? Are you surprised to be seeing it again so soon?

This one is honestly a bit perplexing. The Cicada is on the bottom end of the Medium bracket at 40 tons and is clearly designed to be an overbuilt scout. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and it means it can be forgiven for not being built around firepower. The confusing part is how it manages to be so drastically undergunned. This bad boy packs less pow than anything else in the game, right down to the 25-ton Commando. It's like a Raven, except that in the process of making it heavier, they downgraded the SRM rack to a glorified laser pointer, then got rid of the Narc launcher and any useful electronics suites.

I'm sure it carries plenty more armor to make up for it (the tons have to go somewhere), but what's the point in being alive if you can't do anything to begin with?

This one might be salvageable, depending on how the hardpoints are laid out in the mechlab, but it's going to be some doing.




Are there any other walking toasters in our lineup that I haven't spotted?

Edited by Voyager I, 26 June 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[akaChrisHimself]

So if someone hands you your *** in one of these they'd be pretty Legendary?

[DocBach]

Cicada is the fastest 'mech in the game - it's not meant to fight things straight up, its meant to get eyes on the enemy. Even better is the 3050 update where it gains a long range Ultra autocannon, so it can harass the enemy from long range while it does its scout job.

[Kobold]

I like the CDA-3F upgrade. 8/12/8 with double heat sinks, and ER PPC, and two medium lasers. The CDA-2A needs to be compared to other fast runners. It is more lightly armed than the Jenner, but faster and has more armor.

[Der Zivilist]

Fun fact that you should mention the Dragon and Cicada, for I just ran a quick tabletop battle for two friends today, and guess what they piloted? Yep: a Dragon and a Cicada.

The Dragon's schtick is that it is the fastest 10 tons of armor on the roster. Anything it cannot outrun, it can simply tank. And I'd argue that the AC/5 is not the main weapon, but the LRM-10 is. And these two combined make for reasonable damage over a fairly long range. A range it usually can dictate.

The Cicada... really, it's ridiculously fast. Admittedly, we didn't use the stock variant, but rather the -3C (two MGs, one PPC), so I will let your point about terrible stock configs stand in this case. But in that variant, it really matched the Dragon well. Both mechs are designed to dictate range and snipe, and it worked.

I'll admit that they are niche mechs. Most people playing them in MWO will probably end up downsizing the engine and upgunning the chassis just because it will result in a more familiar feeling mech.

Edited by Der Zivilist, 26 June 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Steel Prophet]

It's not always just about firepower... you'll learn soon enough

[Voyager I]

Kobold, on 26 June 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I like the CDA-3F upgrade. 8/12/8 with double heat sinks, and ER PPC, and two medium lasers. The CDA-2A needs to be compared to other fast runners. It is more lightly armed than the Jenner, but faster and has more armor.

I would personally take double the firepower over a marginal increase in speed. 10 kph is less of a big deal when you're already comfortably into the triple digits. The armor I will agree is useful, but it just seems like the other scout platforms can do the same job while offering more on the side.

[Krubarax]

Uhm... how come you know about the layouts of hardpoints for the Dragon but not for the Cicada?

[Odweaver]

Worst Default loadout mech would have to go to the Hector:


"Armament

The Hector carries a I.W.W. large laser in each arm, giving it respectable punch at the price of easily overheating. A curious design choice were the SperryBrowning machine guns mounted on its upper legs. Meant to deter infantry attacks, the placement of the guns, and especially their ammo bins, in the legs had the opposite effect - enemy infantry soon began specifically targeting theHector's legs to cripple them via ammunition explosions.

Variants

• HOR-1C - A variant introduced to fix the "exploding legs" problem, the 1C replaced the machine guns and their ammo with two small lasers. It also added another heat sink, making for a more durable 'Mech overall. BV (2.0) = 993. ^[5]"

http://www.sarna.net...or_(BattleMech)



That said I'd still like to see it.

Edited by Odweaver, 26 June 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Voyager I]

GB Krubarax, on 26 June 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Uhm... how come you know about the layouts of hardpoints for the Dragon but not for the Cicada?

I'm not in Beta, if that's what you're implying. I'm just praying that the Cicada's hardpoints wont' be a couple of energy slots in the left torso (as shown by the artwork) and nothing else, because that would make it very hard to tweak. The Dragon is already visible in IGN screenshots and is identified as the stock model, which means at the minimum it will have the hardpoints I mentioned. The Cicada I have not seen anywhere.

[Glythe]

From what I have seen the Jenner has heat problems. What good it is to have more weapons on a scout if you can't fire them very often? We don't know for sure but you might be able to beat the snot out of a Jenner with a Cicada because he can actually sustain that firepower and you can't.

Hit and run works as a scout on larger vehicles but you have to bear in mind that eventually people will be running around with modules like danger close (meaning it is impossible to sneak up on them). Every time you expose yourself to an enemy you run the risk that they will hit you back.

[EvangelionUnit]

Why downsizing the engine ? you can sweap out the AC-5 , upgrade the LRM to a tripple LRM5, and upgrade the medium laser to an S laser, less weapons, but more ammo for the ones you need, enough armor to go on a sniper duel with a catapult and the laser and speed to secure your own longrange mechs with less backup weapons ... ?!

or drop out the LRM, upgrade the AC-5 to AC-10, maybe get a small SRM instead of the LRM and here you have a nice brawler ...

you can (and don't want) to be the jack of all threats ?!

same would go for the warhammer, why keeping MG's on a mech in a game where there is no infantrie ? i guess about 99% of people would change them and the ammo for 2 extra heat sinks ?!?! riiiight ?!?!

about the Cicada ... i think some very clever people going to change the medium laser for more light lasers and than ruin your day with a glorious dash around your "slow and heavy" mech while wracking your rear armor

[Der Zivilist]

The canon CDA-2A Cicada Prime has one medium laser in the left torso, one medium laser in the right torso, and one small laser in the center torso.

That makes at minimum three (more likely six) energy hardpoints spread over three sections, so it should be easy to upgun if you downsize the engine (which alone consumes 22.5 out of the mech's 40 tons).

Edited by Der Zivilist, 26 June 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

I disagree on both counts. That being said, my FIRST impressions of these two Mechs matched yours. Here's why I have come to disagree:

The advantage of the Dragon over the Centurion is THREE-fold: speed, range, and armor. It's only sacrifice is in firepower, and even then the sacrifice is minor. Although the AC/5 only does half the damage of the AC/10, it does that half damage at a longer range. Both Mechs share an LRM-10, as you pointed out. The thing is, the Dragon can dictate the range of engagement against the Centurion - and pretty much any other Mech with significant firepower. Because it is faster than the Centurion, it can keep itself out of range of the Centurion's AC/10. And though they will both be trading LRM-10s with each other, the Dragon will also be using its AC/5, PLUS it has more armor to soak up those LRM-10s. Dragon WINS. The Trebuchet would actually be more of a challenge to a Dragon, IMO, due to its significant LRM output; but here the armor divergence is even more significant, and the Trebuchet also doesn't have too many reloads before it runs out.

Also keep in mind that Dragons are, if I'm not mistaken, meant to be used en masse; with the combination of range, speed, and armor, a group of three or four Dragons is extremely dangerous. More so than a group of three or four of just about any other Mech in similar weight classes.

For the Cicada, I think you're missing the point of the scouting role. You don't need to have any significant firepower as a scout in order to be able to "do anything," as you put it. That's what your support Mechs are for. You run in, relay targeting info, and watch the flowers of destruction bloom before you... The lasers are really just a way to deter the few Mechs that will be able to actually catch up with you. It's really a great design, because it is so fully focused on its specific role.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 26 June 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Hikaru]

CPLT-C1 Catapult is fine for tabletop, but horrible for 10-15 minute 12v12 matches. It has only enough ammo for 8 volleys.

[Bloodweaver]

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'm just praying that the Cicada's hardpoints wont' be a couple of energy slots in the left torso (as shown by the artwork) and nothing else, because that would make it very hard to tweak.

The left torso in the artwork is, for whatever reason, mounting an autocannon of some sort, presumably an Ultra-AC/5. The lasers are small colored circles, you can see them if you look closely - one in the left torso, one in the right torso, and one under the cockpit.

[Raalic]

CDA-2A's engine is absolutely enormous. Swapping it out for a 300XL (this may be incredibly expensive, but eh) should bring it down to a "mere" 121kph and provide plenty of new space for MLAS and heatsinks. I actually really like the 2A.. just not STOCK.. as it were.

As for Stock Variants You Should Always Use: See HBK-4P

Edited by Raalic, 26 June 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Voyager I]

Bloodweaver, on 26 June 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

I disagree on both counts. That being said, my FIRST impressions of these two Mechs matched yours. Here's why I have come to disagree:

The advantage of the Dragon over the Centurion is THREE-fold: speed, range, and armor. It's only sacrifice is in firepower, and even then the sacrifice is minor. Although the AC/5 only does half the damage of the AC/10, it does that half damage at a longer range. Both Mechs share an LRM-10, as you pointed out. The thing is, the Dragon can dictate the range of engagement against the Centurion - and pretty much any other Mech with significant firepower. Because it is faster than the Centurion, it can keep itself out of range of the Centurion's AC/10. And though they will both be trading LRM-10s with each other, the Dragon will also be using its AC/5, PLUS it has more armor to soak up those LRM-10s. Dragon WINS. The Trebuchet would actually be more of a challenge to a Dragon, IMO, due to its significant LRM output; but here the armor divergence is even more significant, and the Trebuchet also doesn't have too many reloads before it runs out.

Also keep in mind that Dragons are, if I'm not mistaken, meant to be used en masse; with the combination of range, speed, and armor, a group of three or four Dragons is extremely dangerous. More so than a group of three or four of just about any other Mech.

As a fire support mech, the Dragon is undergunned compared to rivals like the Catapult. It might make a decent skirmisher, but only against opponents that don't have any means to hit back. It's not terribly optimized for the role. To be honest, the low-caliber ACs tend to underperform for their weight in general.

Quote

For the Cicada, I think you're missing the point of the scouting role. You don't need to have any significant firepower as a scout in order to be able to "do anything," as you put it. That's what your support Mechs are for. You run in, relay targeting info, and watch the flowers of destruction bloom before you... The lasers are really just a way to deter the few Mechs that will be able to actually catch up with you. It's really a great design, because it is so fully focused on its specific role.

My beef with the stock Cicada is that it's overspecialized. This mech does nothing but run fast and look at things. The Commando and Jenner can do that while also packing enough firepower to put dents in the rear armor of distracted opponents and even threaten enemies that aren't designed to deal with enemies up close, like a Trebuchet or Catapult (hell, maybe even a Dragon). The Raven has basically every e-war upgrade you could ask for and a handy Narc beacon to spot for your missile boats.

My problem with the Cicada isn't that it can't scout, because it definitely can. It's just that, going by its base variant, every other scout mech we have can do the same thing while offering something else desirable.

Edited by Voyager I, 26 June 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Well... there is the DRG-1G which has a PPC and an extra medium laser and there are the various grand dragon models that are kind of squishy with their XL engine IMO, But they all are pretty decent.

Also, there is the DRG-5N model which has an ultra AC 5 sacrificing the rear facing medium laser and AC. Same damge and ammo consumption as an AC10 but with longer range.

Besides the better stock variants, the classic 3025 verison is good because it's fast enough to dictate the range such that anything slower than it and lacks serious long range fire power is in trouble and has enough armor and long range weapons such that anything faster than it is going to have some trouble taking it down due to the barage of LRMs and autocannon fire on the way in softening them up or poking holes in them and difficulty of penetrating the decent armor with puny weapons.

[Grimbrand]

The original Banshee was a rotten design as well. A 'fast' (4/6) 95 ton Assault mech with no jump jets. Okay, so you can lurch around a battlefield in heavy heavy armor (15 tons!), with a PPC, AC5 and small laser for armament, there are a lot of small mechs that are going to beat one up and take its lunch money. The only situation in which a BNC-3E might be a good design is in urban combat where it can come out of an alley, punch someone's cockpit, and go lurching around to find another hidey spot.

Against another assault mech, a Banshee is just a walking pile of scrapmetal waiting to happen - speed or no speed.

Edited by Grimbrand, 26 June 2012 - 01:26 PM.