99 replies to this topic

[Ubertron X]

The problem with the Dragon is not its speed or armor but simply its firepower. Though not everything is about firepower it still underperforms for its weight. The reason is his loadout.

The AC/5 is a mediocre weapon at best. Though possessing good range and low heat ratio it's weight, ammo dependency and low damage takes it's toll. I wiould go so far to state that every mech in the 3025 TRO which carries an AC/5 has gimped himself, be it iconic Shadow Hawk, Rifleman or even Zeus.

It's 2nd ranged weapon is an LRM10 which by itself is a decent weapon but not as a prime armament. It works well for leighter mechs, especially if doubled (Whitworth) and/or as support weapons (Stalker). However it is not a weapon to be feared and I would engage an LRM10 in any mech any day.

The damage output of a Dragon in ranged combat is something like 11 points if he hits both its main weapons and 15 in melee if he hits AC and Lasers. This is simply not enough for a 60 ton mech and many medium mechs already outperform it. Griffin and Hunchback (LRM variant) in ranged combat and Wolverine and Hunchback (AC-20 variant) in melee. Compare it to a Crab, Ostsol or Cronus which are just as fast, and just as well amored the discrepancy is even more obvious.

The Dragon like the Shadow Hawk is a concept of mediocre mixed arms that does not work well.

Edited by Ubertron X, 26 June 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[Odweaver]

The dragon seems like it would be salvageable if you switched the AC-5 for an LBX10, medium lasers for flamers, and lrm-10 for an srm-6 or 4.

[Voyager I]

Like I said in the OP; the Dragon isn't a bad chassis; just a terrible loadout. As it stands, it's a bearable skirmisher at the 600 yard range, but the Trebuchet can match its speed while providing better fire support. Load it up for close range combat, and it has the potential to be a terrifying raider that would give unescorted Catapults nightmares instead of being a 60 tonner that could realistically lose a fight to a Jenner.

They're good only in one-on-one thought exercises against opponents who can't fight back. In a real battle, they're outclassed at every job (because dancing around the edge of the fray doing mediocre damage isn't a job when your teammates are engaged).

Edited by Voyager I, 27 June 2012 - 02:37 AM.

[CaveMan]

*Yawn.*

Firepower for ammo-based weapons is less about the number listed under "damage" and more about the total in a ton of ammunition. 20 rounds of AC/5 and 5 rounds of AC/20 are the same total damage. The only difference is how fast you're throwing it at the enemy. Well, that, and the AC/5 has twice as much range and barely makes any heat.

If you're expecting every match to only last 25 seconds, by all means, use the AC/20. Just don't miss, or you've wasted a big chunk of your damage potential.

[Voyager I]

CaveMan, on 27 June 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

*Yawn.*

Firepower for ammo-based weapons is less about the number listed under "damage" and more about the total in a ton of ammunition. 20 rounds of AC/5 and 5 rounds of AC/20 are the same total damage. The only difference is how fast you're throwing it at the enemy. Well, that, and the AC/5 has twice as much range and barely makes any heat.

This is blatantly false.

The time it takes you to kill things matters, because during the time you're trying to kill them, they're also trying to kill you or your teammates. Endurance certainly has merit, but it only helps you if you win the first fight.

[Badgerpants]

I almost can't wait for the Clan Invasion, I want My Black Lanner, no JJ's bur move profile, 7/11(14[MASC]), plus enough weapons and armor to make a heavy crap it's proverbial pants1 there are some non-cannon variants I'd love to try out, the Two wories I have about it are the Massive XL engine and heat management, but, hey, I'll deal wi't it!

[Tadakuma]

Grimbrand, on 26 June 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

The original Banshee was a rotten design as well. A 'fast' (4/6) 95 ton Assault mech with no jump jets. Okay, so you can lurch around a battlefield in heavy heavy armor (15 tons!), with a PPC, AC5 and small laser for armament, there are a lot of small mechs that are going to beat one up and take its lunch money. The only situation in which a BNC-3E might be a good design is in urban combat where it can come out of an alley, punch someone's cockpit, and go lurching around to find another hidey spot.

Against another assault mech, a Banshee is just a walking pile of scrapmetal waiting to happen - speed or no speed.

I have a lot of experience with the Banshee-3E and I can say that it is more capable then most people think.

Yes it has the weapons of a medium mech, but it has a massive amount of armour, adove average speed for an assault and it has no heat problems what so ever.

This a mech that is more then the sum of it's parts, it has the armour to win attritions battles, the speed to control the engagement and the weight to deal crushing close combat assaults.

I have heard a lot of people say that lighter mechs like the Warhammer will pick it a part, but my experience has been fairly different. The reality is that a Warhammer will lose most encounters with a Banshee, anything with 10 tonnes or less of armour is going to struggle with against a Banshee.

Even with the other Assault mechs it is a credible threat, I have killed an Atlas and a Stalker in one. I can't see a Cyclops being a threat.
Are the better Assault mechs out there, yes.

The Battlemaster is a better alround design and close combat mech and the Awesome is better long range sniper, but you're comparing the mech against the two best Assault mech designs in the game (at least from the 3039 book) so yes it won't look that efficient.

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

The CDA-2A Cicada

Remember the only Medium mech that can't outshoot a Dragon? Are you surprised to be seeing it again so soon?

This one is honestly a bit perplexing. The Cicada is on the bottom end of the Medium bracket at 40 tons and is clearly designed to be an overbuilt scout. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and it means it can be forgiven for not being built around firepower. The confusing part is how it manages to be so drastically undergunned. This bad boy packs less pow than anything else in the game, right down to the 25-ton Commando. It's like a Raven, except that in the process of making it heavier, they downgraded the SRM rack to a glorified laser pointer, then got rid of the Narc launcher and any useful electronics suites.

I'm sure it carries plenty more armor to make up for it (the tons have to go somewhere), but what's the point in being alive if you can't do anything to begin with?

This one might be salvageable, depending on how the hardpoints are laid out in the mechlab, but it's going to be some doing.

Are there any other walking toasters in our lineup that I haven't spotted?

The Cicada can legitimately be called one of the least efficient mechs in the game. It has identical armour and speed to the locust, but it has a smaller weapons load the a 20 tonne scout mech.

When compared to the Mongoose it comes of even worse by comparison, with both less armour and weapons (yes I am talking about the 3039 downgrade) then the lighter mech. Despite that I would still hesitate to call it a useless mech.

The very thing that makes it an efficient design also gives it some unconventional options during play. This is one of the best charges in the game, with 40 tonnes and a potential movement of 360 m (12 hexes) in 10 seconds (1 round) it can do a theoretical maximum of 48 pts of damage to another mech on the charge,

A more likely scenario is 32-40 pts of damage but even that is enough damage to worry destroy lights and worry other mediums mechs. A charge into somebodies rear arch could even potentially destroy a heavy or assault mech if it is timed carefully. So I would say that a smart mech driver could find some real uses for this mech. I can't wait to see the Youtube videos of charging Cicadas destroying assault mechs.

What mechs do I think are badly designed? Well top of the list (and I know that alot of people will disagree) is the Raven. The most overrated light mech in the game. You have a mech with minimal armour, a short range weapons loadout, ammo dependancy and an XL engine.

The combination means that the mech has to expose itself to enemy fire and is incredibly vulnerable to damage, My experience has been that they drops like flies. There are better scouts, better spotters and electronic warfare boats out there

[Grimbrand]

Tadakuma, on 27 June 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I can't wait to see the Youtube videos of charging Cicadas destroying assault mechs.

You may have a very long wait.

Like I said, they make great hood ornaments for my assault mechs. And furthermore, how many mechwarriors out there are truly suicidal in nature? Even assuming a Cicada *could* charge an Atlas, and arrive to impact on his armor in more or less intact condition - what sort of damage is going to ensue to the Cicada? Yeah. It's like charging a tank with a dune buggy. Sure, you may puncture the radiator! It could happen! But odds are against the dune buggy, even in a 'best case' scenario.

I don't know about you, but I don't throw away my men's lives. I wouldn't tell a mechwarrior of mine to go run his perfectly good (if crummy) mech into someone else's, either - I hate paying repair bills.

[Drunken Firebat]

Targetloc, on 26 June 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

PNT-9R Panther.

I love that little mech, but its niche is that it's a dirt cheap walking PPC to add to deploy in numbers at low cost. It can't fight other scout mechs 1v1, and it's too slow to run away from mediums or heavies that will rip it in half. It's a great mech to command, but you don't want to be the guy sitting in it.

The best part is that in the fluff, it's listed as a scout Mech. Say what?

[KageRyuu]

Lorcan Lladd, on 26 June 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Which is why nobody would be foolish enough to drive that thing into a city; the whole idea, then, is to just snipe away at enemies and lay supressing fire with your LRMs and AC to keep them from leaving that city - in order to do that efficiently, to keep enemies from leaving a vast, yet dense terrain, you just need the kind of combination between speed and firing range which only the Dragon possesses, so you can always move to keep up with enemies and find better firing positions.

Still with that hypothetical scenario in mind, as long as you kept the enemies from advancing, you could even call for artillery or fire support from other, slower 'Mechs and weaken them enough for a Hunchback or Atlas to move in and finish the job.

The Dragon does depend upon a great range-to-target in order to be effective in battle, but then again so do other 'Mechs such as the Catapult and the Trebuchet; what makes the Dragon unique amongst them is that it can not only maintain that range, but increase it, as well.

Just the same as the battle is already lost for a Hunchback caught on exposed terrain by a long-range attacker, a Dragon can be made vulnerable at short ranges or enclosed terrain, yes, but a good pilot, no, better yet, a good lanceleader, will do whatever is possible to keep that from happening.

Should they fail?
Yes, they'll be desperate.
But it's their job to do the thinking, not the 'Mech's.

Edit.
Improving upon format, removing double-post, adding some points.

Which is common sense, but seeing as the post was more or less directed at Bloodweaver who has a hard on for the Dragon and refused to accept that it has some design flaws or short comings by saying it could effectively go toe to toe with a catapult at range or in close I made the argument putting the dragon in a situation it was not designed for against an opponent that excelled in said situation.

[Holski77]

Voyager I, on 26 June 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Having done a bit of browsing, it's come to my notice that some of the default loadouts on a few mechs are more or less objectively terrible. I'm not talking about debatable points, like how the Stalker might be better off it focused its loadout on a particular range instead of having a different weapons system for ever situation. I'm talking about configurations that just flat-out suck.

Thank goodness for the mechlab, because some frames wouldn't have a hope without it. We've got two main culprits here, for the time being.


The DRG-1N Dragon

There are plenty of things to like about the basic framework of the Dragon. As far as Heavies go, it's quite athletic, capable of cruising along at speeds rivaling Mediums. As a matter of fact, it's actually faster than half the Mediums we have in the game so far. It also has a nice spread of hardpoints, capable of mounting ballistics, missiles, and energy weapons all at the same time. It can't boat out on any one type of weapon, but that diversity should allow it to always have a tool for the job while running a nice balance between heat buildup and ammo concerns. The Dragon, from what we've seen, is a chassis with plenty of potential.

The problem lies in its execution. The DRG-1N just doesn't have the goods for a 60 tonner. One AC-5 isn't scary. When that's the primary armament on a Heavy Mech, it's practically a punchline. This thing should have the potential to be a lot better than it is, but as it stands it simply does not belong on the battlefield. The stock Dragon is outgunned by every Medium other than the Cicada. The Centurion literally has the exact same loadout with a bigger Autocannon, despite being 10 tons lighter.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy the Dragon. I'm just saying please, for the sake of yourself and all your future teammates, drop that baby into the mech bay and put some real weapons on it before you click "Launch".




The CDA-2A Cicada

Remember the only Medium mech that can't outshoot a Dragon? Are you surprised to be seeing it again so soon?

This one is honestly a bit perplexing. The Cicada is on the bottom end of the Medium bracket at 40 tons and is clearly designed to be an overbuilt scout. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, and it means it can be forgiven for not being built around firepower. The confusing part is how it manages to be so drastically undergunned. This bad boy packs less pow than anything else in the game, right down to the 25-ton Commando. It's like a Raven, except that in the process of making it heavier, they downgraded the SRM rack to a glorified laser pointer, then got rid of the Narc launcher and any useful electronics suites.

I'm sure it carries plenty more armor to make up for it (the tons have to go somewhere), but what's the point in being alive if you can't do anything to begin with?

This one might be salvageable, depending on how the hardpoints are laid out in the mechlab, but it's going to be some doing.




Are there any other walking toasters in our lineup that I haven't spotted?

It's obvious that the two mechs you have pointed out aren't made to carry big guns.
The Dragon and the Cicada both are really fast for their weight and armor.
These mechs are the ones that can go the distance... and come back.

In WOT the M6 sucked major ****.
It was fast, heavily armored and under gunned.
But it was a medium/scout killler!!!!

I believe these mechs have a niche of their own.
You just need to look past size of the weapon load out

[Biplane]

I'm actually pretty fond of the stock Cicada myself.

As far as awful stock loadouts go, though? Well, has anyone mentioned the Charger yet, or is that too easy?

And while not bad exactly, one of my favorite Assaults, the Victor, rocks an AC/20, 2 medium lasers, and an SRM-4. Fully equipped, it's an 80 ton mech that just barely outguns a Hunchback. Once the Auto's out of ammo, it's outgunned by Jenners. Still love that thing, though.

[Tadakuma]

Grimbrand, on 27 June 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

You may have a very long wait.

Like I said, they make great hood ornaments for my assault mechs. And furthermore, how many mechwarriors out there are truly suicidal in nature? Even assuming a Cicada *could* charge an Atlas, and arrive to impact on his armor in more or less intact condition - what sort of damage is going to ensue to the Cicada? Yeah. It's like charging a tank with a dune buggy. Sure, you may puncture the radiator! It could happen! But odds are against the dune buggy, even in a 'best case' scenario.

I don't know about you, but I don't throw away my men's lives. I wouldn't tell a mechwarrior of mine to go run his perfectly good (if crummy) mech into someone else's, either - I hate paying repair bills.

I'm working off the tabletop rules here (and a worst case scenario) but the Atlas will do 10 pts of damage to the Cicada in 5 pts lots and the Cicada will do 32 - 40 in 5 pts lots. So there will be luck involved as you will need to breach rear torso armour and do critical hits

The attack needs to be into the rear arc which that you could potentially blindside the Atlas. That and the fact that ever body knows a Cicada represents no threat to an Atlas means that a lot of Atlas pilots won't be paying that much attention to the Cicada (they're going to be worried about the Awesome or Cataphracts that are trying to take it down)

If the rules work in a similar fashion to TT and given that charging and DFA are confirmed role skills, I see no reason to doubt that they, then it should be possible.


Is is going to be a common place, no but that's the point, this is a game and people do things like this to challenge themselves and for the sheer enjoyment of it (plus bragging rights).

[Bloodweaver]

I have a hard-on for the Dragon? KageRyuu, I liked it in MW4, but that was only because it had a ridiculous load-out. Heavy gauss rifle? Really? On a 60-tonner? Mounted in its ARM??? A "real" Dragon doesn't appeal to me much - I tend to have the most fun when fulfilling a fast-response role, such as cavalry or "ground support"(or whatever you'd call the Mech equivalent of an A-10's role), which requires significant firepower in addition to speed. Thus my liking of it in MW4, and disliking of it elsewhere.

I don't "refuse to accept its shortcomings" at all. You can easily verify this by re-reading my previous posts, where I say that it will NOT outclass other Mechs to a significant degree in any one area. Most other Mechs will have at least one major advantage over it, usually either speed or firepower. You're projecting - the actual issue is that you refuse to see its uses. You maintain, in fact, that it is pointless, useless. I have not said the same for any other Mechs - stating that the Dragon is a useful Mech doesn't mean I love it, nor does it equate to my saying other Mechs are useless in comparison. That's reaching, and reeks of desperation on your part. I have been trying to illustrate how a Dragon CAN be useful to you - and others here have verified my points with actual examples. That doesn't mean I want to convert you to the CULT OF THE DRAGON UBER ALLES. Reel it in.

As above, the trick to the Dragon is not that that it has any one overbearing strength. This is the approach most Mechs take, and opposite to the approach behind the Dragon's design. It makes up for whatever significant disadvantage it has against any other Mech by giving a slight advantage in several other areas simultaneously. So, for example, if it's slower than its opponent, it probably has: superior armor, weapons either outside or inside of its opponent's ideal range, AND (not or) comparable or superior firepower. If it's outgunned by its opponent, it's probably: faster, with comparable armor if not superior, and because it can engage at multiple ranges effectively, it allows for the pilot to negate a significant portion of his opponent's firepower. Again, "and," not "or." It has multiple benefits, but because none of them are enormous, it doesn't immediately stand out. The real benefit is in the combination of those smaller ones. Which is why it requires more situational awareness than a lot of other designs. It's not meant to focus on any particular task to the exclusion of any others, but it does allow a pilot to move from focusing on one task to focusing on another. Thus the "Trooper" description Jad Ivask used above.

[Der Basilisk]

I didn´t read the whole thread so far, so i don´t know if someone said it before: All mechs were made for the tabletop and have a story, both of which has no meaning in the online game. And in the TT, mechs are compared through their combat value (or was it battle value?).

If i remember right, the cv of a Dragon is quite low for a heavy mech. And about it weapons... yes, the AC/5 is no big gun, but it comes with 2 tons of ammo, thats 40 rounds, and the LRM has two tons (24 rounds) too. And because these weapons are heat efficient vou never need to take your finger from the trigger. Now you say, you don´t need all that ammo, because you don´t want to be blown up. Ok, so cut it down to one tone each and add armor instead.

Someone compared the Dragon to the Centurion and said they have the same weapons load. Not quite true. Both have ACs, LRMs and lasers, but the Dragon is faster and has more armor while the Centurion has the bigger AC.

There is one more thing to say about the Dragon to those who don´t like its weapons: try the Granddragon.

With the Cicada it´s quite the same. It has it´s roots in the TT and some flavor text. Right now, we won´t have any Battlemech melee, but in the TT there is. And a kick from a 40 ton mech who rushes in out of nowhere can ruin the day of more than one mech.

That´s my 2 cents about the Dragon and the Cicada.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

OTT-7K.
Seriously, if anything comes onto the battlefield piloting that thing, they might have a chance to defeat me becausen I'm laughing too hard to do anything.

For the record, an OTT-7K only has a TAG.
It has no hands so its punches are weaker/less accurate.
So all it really can do is kick.
Except, of course, that's disabled in MWO.

Quote

There is one more thing to say about the Dragon to those who don´t like its weapons: try the Granddragon.

I hope that I can pilot a DRG-5K Grand Dragon.
Especially if I can modify it to have two PPCs/ERPPCs.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 29 June 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Chunkymonkey]

DocBach, on 26 June 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Cicada is the fastest 'mech in the game - it's not meant to fight things straight up, its meant to get eyes on the enemy. Even better is the 3050 update where it gains a long range Ultra autocannon, so it can harass the enemy from long range while it does its scout job.

A upgraded jenner with XL engine goes faster then a Upgraded Cicada.


Charger, Banshee, Von Rhors, and Mackie, old mechs that are terrible.


And you cant forget the dark age assault powerhouses, you have the forestymech, the agromech, the dark age power armors......

[Orbit Rain]

Der Basilisk, on 28 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I didn´t read the whole thread so far, so i don´t know if someone said it before: All mechs were made for the tabletop and have a story, both of which has no meaning in the online game. And in the TT, mechs are compared through their combat value (or was it battle value?).

If i remember right, the cv of a Dragon is quite low for a heavy mech. And about it weapons... yes, the AC/5 is no big gun, but it comes with 2 tons of ammo, thats 40 rounds, and the LRM has two tons (24 rounds) too. And because these weapons are heat efficient vou never need to take your finger from the trigger. Now you say, you don´t need all that ammo, because you don´t want to be blown up. Ok, so cut it down to one tone each and add armor instead.

Someone compared the Dragon to the Centurion and said they have the same weapons load. Not quite true. Both have ACs, LRMs and lasers, but the Dragon is faster and has more armor while the Centurion has the bigger AC.

There is one more thing to say about the Dragon to those who don´t like its weapons: try the Granddragon.

With the Cicada it´s quite the same. It has it´s roots in the TT and some flavor text. Right now, we won´t have any Battlemech melee, but in the TT there is. And a kick from a 40 ton mech who rushes in out of nowhere can ruin the day of more than one mech.

That´s my 2 cents about the Dragon and the Cicada.

I've read the whole thing and have obviously been geeking out on mechs lately, so I'll jump in this conversation here, though I must say I read most of it on my phone, so have no idea who said what...lol...I see things working out like this...you get so many cbills to buy mechs available to your faction...these mechs are akin in some ways to guns in CoD...want a grand dragon? cool...grind the xp on the base chassis for skills and cbills and we'll sell you this upgraded one (ldo?)... I've got all gold guns in MW3, so I am an obvious sucker for this ploy ;-)

The stock variants of all the mechs suck...they're supposed to given the gear that's going to come down the line...I like the idea of high-speed high-armor heavies that can stand back and snipe, problem is (unless you load some crazy high end monster assault loaded with ac's), you can't kill anything in any reasonable amount of time...it's too easy for lights and mediums to get in range and ML you to death... :/ at least in the mech titles I've played so far...

I had whatever that medium with four ac2's in MPBT3025 and it sucked...

...blah blah blah...

oh, and at least there are ramming damage and DFA damage skill trees to be climbed for semi-melee...

Edited by Orbit Rain, 29 June 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Uri Brauer]

It's always felt to me that many of the 3025 stock mechs were deliberately substandard, to create a more interesting world.

Best fix for the Cicada (with 3025 tech) is a drop to 7/11. You can still outrun nearly everything, but now have some scope for combat too.

[ZnSeventeen]

My opinion for the stock Cicada is that it is nowhere near as good in it's role as a Spider SDR-5V. The spider moves at the same speed but has a nice jump of 8. Trying to hit a mech jumping 8 is not easy, and it allows the mech to move through forests and such with greater ease than the cicada. In any case, it fills the same role, with nearly identical weaponry, sadly similar armor, but with much greater maneuverability, and much lower cost. But later variants of the cicada are pretty sweet though.