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Match Making Is Pathetic.


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#141 STEF_

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:43 PM

View PostSandpit, on 08 December 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Which has what to do with the mm and elo system?

Exactly how is pgi supposed to make your team play better?


Well, I've already written about it in a previous post, but I'm glad to explain the issue again.

If a player has a good elo, It's quite dumb elo based MM puts him to play with "bots/noobs".
It's weird the manner this MM works for balance :D
I mean: let's suppose both teams must have 1800 points elo average; for MM a match is balanced if players have these elos (2 playersvs2players in this example)

2600 + 1000 team A
1800 + 1800 team B

Do you really seems to you that this is a balanced match?


Elo based MM should works putting togheter player with similar elo bracket!!!!
And to solve the problem with waiting a looooong time for a match, let's do large elo brackets.

noobs brackets: 0-1200
average brackets:1200-1800
good brackets: 1800-x

Matches made choosing players inside the same brackets will ALWAYS be more enjoyble than now, even if there can be elo differencies between the 2 teams

#142 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:53 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 08 December 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:


Well, I've already written about it in a previous post, but I'm glad to explain the issue again.

If a player has a good elo, It's quite dumb elo based MM puts him to play with "bots/noobs".
It's weird the manner this MM works for balance :D
I mean: let's suppose both teams must have 1800 points elo average; for MM a match is balanced if players have these elos (2 playersvs2players in this example)

2600 + 1000 team A
1800 + 1800 team B

Do you really seems to you that this is a balanced match?


Elo based MM should works putting togheter player with similar elo bracket!!!!
And to solve the problem with waiting a looooong time for a match, let's do large elo brackets.

noobs brackets: 0-1200
average brackets:1200-1800
good brackets: 1800-x

Matches made choosing players inside the same brackets will ALWAYS be more enjoyble than now, even if there can be elo differencies between the 2 teams

So the average Bracket could have a max Team Elo of 21,600 and up to 8 Average players 2 Boots and 2 Masters of the game. Or any other combination. And even if Elo did put 24 players from the Average Bracket into a match ROFLStomps will still happen just as often. Attrition ruins Elo Calculations.

#143 STEF_

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:04 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

So the average Bracket could have a max Team Elo of 21,600 and up to 8 Average players 2 Boots and 2 Masters of the game. Or any other combination. And even if Elo did put 24 players from the Average Bracket into a match ROFLStomps will still happen just as often. Attrition ruins Elo Calculations.

That could be adjust, but I'm sure that those matches would be more fun than these current matches with 1-2 players carring hard 10-11 noobs/bots. I mean.... 11 teamates chasing 2 lights it's only a nightmare, there's nothing I could do.

edit: and the same with 8-9 teambots going into the tunnel in forest colony all together.
Seriously I don't know what I could do in those matches....

edit: and altough the system I propose is not balanced, I would be sure to avoid noobs, bots, ppl that don't know what "R" button does, ppl who doesn't clik "H" for heatvision, "N" for nightvision, etc....

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 09 December 2014 - 08:12 AM.


#144 PappySmurf

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:09 AM

I agree OP the MM has always been junk and never works right. Then you place a crappy AI system on the server than only allows a 50% win/loss ratio and its a disaster.The server AI controls your hits and a lot of times it makes you lose matches.

The MM and server AI system is just another of PGI'S Abortions to this once great IP.

#145 meteorol

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:47 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 09 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I agree OP the MM has always been junk and never works right. Then you place a crappy AI system on the server than only allows a 50% win/loss ratio and its a disaster.The server AI controls your hits and a lot of times it makes you lose matches.

The MM and server AI system is just another of PGI'S Abortions to this once great IP.


Wrapped the tinfoil too tight?

Edited by meteorol, 09 December 2014 - 08:47 AM.


#146 SgtKinCaiD

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:48 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 09 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I agree OP the MM has always been junk and never works right. Then you place a crappy AI system on the server than only allows a 50% win/loss ratio and its a disaster.The server AI controls your hits and a lot of times it makes you lose matches.

The MM and server AI system is just another of PGI'S Abortions to this once great IP.

Euh nope, it's not working like that.

#147 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:51 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 09 December 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

That could be adjust, but I'm sure that those matches would be more fun than these current matches with 1-2 players carring hard 10-11 noobs/bots. I mean.... 11 teamates chasing 2 lights it's only a nightmare, there's nothing I could do.

edit: and the same with 8-9 teambots going into the tunnel in forest colony all together.
Seriously I don't know what I could do in those matches....

edit: and altough the system I propose is not balanced, I would be sure to avoid noobs, bots, ppl that don't know what "R" button does, ppl who doesn't clik "H" for heatvision, "N" for nightvision, etc....

I don't think they would Stefka. To many "vets" refuse to use the R cause I might steal THEIR kill. :rolleyes:

i personally love more randomness when I drop PUG. Now in the Team Que... Different story altogether. ;) I'd love to have 11 other Lawmen on so we can be a whole team! :wub:

#148 STEF_

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 09:06 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 09 December 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

I don't think they would Stefka. To many "vets" refuse to use the R cause I might steal THEIR kill. :rolleyes:

i personally love more randomness when I drop PUG. Now in the Team Que... Different story altogether. ;) I'd love to have 11 other Lawmen on so we can be a whole team! :wub:

Yes, I really would like to have true randomness, that is, casual MM depending on tonnage only.
Puglandia is my goldmine, because puggies aren't only in my team, of course :)

Group queue is the only way to have good matches....but why not trying to change that elo thing in pugs?
At least to see if the situation would improve a little...

#149 Darth Mech

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 11:57 AM

There is no "match maker". Buckets fill to launch a game. Period.
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Edited by Darth Mech, 09 December 2014 - 11:59 AM.


#150 Davers

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 11:56 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 08 December 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:


Ofcourse that is not what I am talking about. I am in touch with probabilities and statistics, work with it every day for what its worth on a gaming forum. :)



Then you assume that clan mechs and IS mechs are balanced? I would challenge that by saying that clan mechs are still a bit better than IS on average because of the cXL engine and that Elo in this case may not have had a significant impact. At least not been alone responsible for the outcome.



Something I would like to see from PGI is an analysis of streakyness from their data. It would be a simple thing to prove or disprove. If there are on average more 10-match-streaks than 1 per ~2000 drops per player there is a systematic thing happening in there somewhere. I can only keep track of my own results, and I have more streaks that expected if there was a 50% to win each match before it starts. Even as little as a 5-match loss-streak only has ~3% probability per try. Over a typical gaming evening of say 20 drops, the chance is ~15-25% to have one. Everyone can judge for themselves if that is what they are seeing or if they have more streaks than that.

The other thing that is not talked about much when discussing matchmaking is the imbalanced maps. Most of them I'd say have one side that has a clear advantage, that must add a lot of noise to the personal Elo changes in addition to all the noise we already get from the performance of our 11 team mates.

If you are as familiar with statistics as you claim, then you should know that Clan mechs are pretty well balanced since their projected win percentage was dead on based on Elo. If they had won 75% then they could be considered OP, if they had won 55% then they would be UP. But since their win percentage was dead on, then the mech's performance compared to IS was not a huge factor.

I would think streaks are more common than not. I don't think I ever had a day where I consistently had a win followed by a loss, then repeating.

#151 Fustercluck

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 03:02 PM

View PostPappySmurf, on 09 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I agree OP the MM has always been junk and never works right. Then you place a crappy AI system on the server than only allows a 50% win/loss ratio and its a disaster.The server AI controls your hits and a lot of times it makes you lose matches.

The MM and server AI system is just another of PGI'S Abortions to this once great IP.


This is how you troll. Take notes everyone.

#152 Mudhutwarrior

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 02:52 AM

There are multiple threads that show clearly by admission and evidence that Synch dropping into solo is occurring regularly. There are several teamspeak channels dedicated to it.

Factions still sponsor it.


Its not MM.

When CW started I had some of the most even matches ever and I have over 15k right now. As it flopped and people got sick of the wait times it slowly got worse, Now this weekend It got terrible and many were open about sycnh dropping.

Don't listen to the apologists. They were proven wrong last time with evidence they now ignore.

It's not MM, its exploits. Someday PGI will wake up and get a handle on it because new and casual make up the majority and the propaganda promoted here will fail.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

#153 F4T 4L

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 03:59 AM

View PostDarth Mech, on 09 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

There is no "match maker". Buckets fill to launch a game. Period.
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I suspect that this is a troll post.

If not, can you explain why you believe this, rather than the devs explanation of how the mm works?

#154 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:06 AM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 06 December 2014 - 12:57 AM, said:

What MMs need to stop doing is using w/e mechanic it is that stacks the deck. WoT uses your win rate, if you win like 10 in a row, you will be assured that your next 10 games will be absurdly bad. If you win like 5, you will lose 5. I really hate that rigging of the MM. drop elo, and simply use Mech class and you need to fill a slot........3/3/3/3 go.....forget the elo and all that......then it wont feel the need to stick all the 3.5 KD, 60% WR players against a team of 0.75kd 45% WR players, which it does...

SO the Match makers needs to stop using Players? Players have been complaining about losing since I started visiting forums. Losing happens, sometimes it happen a lot. IF you are in a fighting game with Attrition once teh losing starts its hard to reverse gravity. Cause its all down hill.

#155 F4T 4L

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:25 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 08 December 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:


Well, I've already written about it in a previous post, but I'm glad to explain the issue again.

If a player has a good elo, It's quite dumb elo based MM puts him to play with "bots/noobs".
It's weird the manner this MM works for balance :D
I mean: let's suppose both teams must have 1800 points elo average; for MM a match is balanced if players have these elos (2 playersvs2players in this example)

2600 + 1000 team A
1800 + 1800 team B

Do you really seems to you that this is a balanced match?


Elo based MM should works putting togheter player with similar elo bracket!!!!
And to solve the problem with waiting a looooong time for a match, let's do large elo brackets.

noobs brackets: 0-1200
average brackets:1200-1800
good brackets: 1800-x

Matches made choosing players inside the same brackets will ALWAYS be more enjoyble than now, even if there can be elo differencies between the 2 teams


As I understand it, the problem isnt the match-maker, it's the size of the player-base.

Your suggestion may have merit, although three brackets is fairly limited, but I imagine it would increase drop-times for all. Maybe the quality of games would improve enough to make that worthwhile, IDK.

Edit: I certainly believe that noobs should have their own queue, maybe with a couple of volunteer vets per team to provide tuition. Again though, maybe there aren't enough new players to make that work well.

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 04:26 AM.


#156 Sjorpha

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:43 AM

Stomps are not a sign of bad matchmaking.

As Karl Berg explained in a recent NGNG podcast, the risk of stomps are actually higher in well balanced matches. (With lower standard deviation of ELO within the teams)

Win and loss streaks are to be expected in any random system like this, the only way avoid win/lose streaks would be to stack the deck to counter them, which essentially isn't even possible with 24 random players. I find it quite ironic that people think win/lose streaks is somehow a sign of "stacking the deck", when the truth is that stacking the deck would be the only way to avoid them. :D Your "evidence" (streaks) is actually the evidence that your accusation is false.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 December 2014 - 04:44 AM.


#157 Col Jaime Wolf

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 04:50 AM

View Post8100d 5p4tt3r, on 06 December 2014 - 12:52 AM, said:

Dear PGI -

There is no pleasure in constantly winning nor constantly losing.
Where are the stats on games ending with 12/0, 12/1, 12/2. 12/3 Kills?

I know I'm not the only one tired of getting thrown into seriously lop sided matches.
And, before any "geniuses" comment with their low IQ quips, e.g, "LTP, u suck or tldr, etc* (Sorry that your attention span is so short.)
I know how to play, Thank you. I've probably been playing longer than you have been alive.

Now, for those that can offer constructive opinions? I'd like to hear/discuss other view points.

As for game play:
I can hold my own and my stats reflect as such. I consider myself, maybe average at best (if even that.) I have no desire to play at a competition level. I just want to have fun with fellow pilots and not get "ELO'd" with stacked teams.

Matches ending 12-1/0 is not a balanced system.
Getting 10 out of 12 matches as losses is not a "fun" experience.

I have had great matches where tactics and team work do matter. I've also had matches where my team lost but it wasn't a complete slaughter and nonetheless a great learning experience.
I am also quite well aware that not every match is going to be a good fight or a great loss, even an easy victory. My point is that the poor matching of "ELO" as well as taking three 4 man, or a mix of PUG/4man against a 8+ man team has to stop.

Team building is quite essential to this game as no one person can carry a team for a win/loss.
When a match is 6, 0 and less than 5 minutes in... That is not a good sign. I lost count of how many times I was either the last or one of the last still alive in a match because I fought smart. (I was not hiding for the low IQ crowd.) A Clan Warrior does not hide. I respect well applied tactics, dumb luck and skilled pilots. I don't respect a system that is not balanced.

Playing a game should not be a persistent lesson in futility.
Those that want to play high level? Great! Set a queue just for them.
Those of us that want to play for fun? We are not bonus points for their C-bill/Exp and K/D ratio.

I'm probably over thinking this and I realize that I am just another number in the PGI player database. I know I can vote in not providing any more support for a genre that I have long been passionate about. Despite it's flaws, (except of course when Microsoft got involved.) the Mechwarrior/Battletech franchise was a loved and worthwhile focus of my time and money.

Dear PGI - Fix your matching system for we the players.


just gonna say if you find yourself losing consistently as bad as you have described. maybe you need to look at yourself and take responsibility for the part you play in this. lets take your post for example

There is no pleasure in constantly winning nor constantly losing. <- i agree constant steamrolls are not good, fun nor conducive for maintaining a player base

Where are the stats on games ending with 12/0, 12/1, 12/2. 12/3 Kills? <- statistically pgi has stated that this is the minority of games by far, don't remember the figure exactly but it was far less then 5% of all games and from my experience also quite rare. it may seem like most games end this way but its only because those games stick in your mind as a reminder of the complete and utter failure of your team. It means you (like most people) take it just a little personal when you get your face kicked in.

its not bad that this happens its only natural, how you react to it is what can be bad or good.

Playing a game should not be a persistent lesson in futility. <- i agree so don't make it one. our own stubbornness is usually what causes us the most frustration. but again it is natural to be so.

Those that want to play high level? Great! Set a queue just for them. <- i find its my own derpiness and my teams derpiness that leads to those bad games and sometimes you can do nothing and simply must roll with the punches as they say.

Those of us that want to play for fun? We are not bonus points for their C-bill/Exp and K/D ratio. <- taking it too personally my friend, some 0's and 1's that reside on some hard drive in a server room in canada are just that. little electrical bits on a hard drive platter spinning on an axis that's spinning on the earths axis rotating around a celestial object that is a pin-head in the universe they are insignificant. how we interpret those bits as is what will affect us and our perceptions.

I accept this may just be a rage post but it is also an outward reflection of the frustration you feel when you get stomped and the lack of satisfaction from a steamroll win.

but it sounds to me like your having a string of rotten games, which does happen. The MM is not perfect but it is far better then what i have seen in the past. sometimes the MM cannot give you a "fair" match that is simply the nature of online games. how many times in CS have you won effortlessly? how many times in CS could you just swear the enemy team had some kind of aim-bot or wall-hack?

The games you played where you got stomped the worst tend to stick, it is the brains natural way of preventing you from repeating the same mistakes. we remember best what things we felt the most emotions. even if you don't know why you lost you know on some level that you lost because you were unprepared for the opposition and they outclassed you to the point where you felt as tho you were powerless. hence frustration, a problem with no obvious solution is always a source of stress.

if you find yourself in losing streaks consistently i can tell you that a negative frame of mind will perpetuate it. a kind of self fulfilling prophesy as your anger and frustration build loss after loss your performance will continue to suffer, your regard for your teammates will fall. you will find yourself simply getting angrier and angrier.

the solution to constantly losing however is a surprisingly simple one. as with most problems it starts within. you cannot expect a cold calculating machine like the MM to give you what you want. you must take it for yourself.

if you see your team doing overly well (the enemy is 4 mechs down and you haven't even arrived at the party) then just derp around and make a disco show at least the enemy wont feel like everyone on your team is out for their heads.

if you find yourself losing consistently then you need to break the cycle. first try dropping in a different weight class as you have an ELO for each one. so when your doing really well with a particular heavy (cat 3d cough cough) and you drop in your dragons only to find yourself getting face stomped, its probably because your heavy ELO has been driven to the point where a dragon simply cannot compete.

secondly if you want to continue winning even when you play mechs that cant compete properly. you need to take it upon yourself to learn the art of commanding the team. that means learning how to both command with the battlemap and without. both methods are needed depending on what will work with your team.

some pilots dont like being told where to move by a little map marker and so that will not do (personally i find the battlemap orders cumbersome and slow) so learn to call out squares. learn to instruct your team into formations for pushes and defensive firing lines.

google around and find good strategies for all the maps. memorize the spawn locations and what mechs get spawned there. be that ******* that orders your team to dog-pile that lone lance of assaults on tourmaline or caustic. that alone will lead to a ROFL stomp most games.

take advantage of the pre-game timer, tell your team to not hit ready right away so you can get a few words in and know what your working with before the match starts.

look at your team composition and make quick decisions as to whether or not you should hold or push. ask your team mates how many are snipers/brawlers/lrm boast est. a fast way to do this is "can you guys just list what your mech does real fast for me plx" and you should get feedback like "lrm boat" "brawler" "sniper" "fast med" "srm boat" "laser master" est.

whatever the case you must prepare yourself by learning some good strats, and knowing how to use your team and deciding quickly what plan to take. this is sizing up the situation.

learn to work with people. don't use all caps. use inclusive words like "we" "us" "your lance" people don't like to be barked at so learn the best way to get most people to simply go along with your plan like "guys i got a good plan so lets kick their ass"

getting your team to go along with your plan is an art all unto itself and can only be learned by trying and doing. and not giving up when people tell you to "**** off" "i don't take orders so STFU". dont respond to these things with caps, anger or barking. rather if even one person on your team says "rgr lets scrap these newbs" just keep commanding and lead your team to victory.

most ROFL stomps (12-0) are because one team has no plan, no coord and no commander while the enemy has someone that is coord the team, is giving them a plan and is coord them to crush the enemy. so if your team is the one losing all the time and you want to change that then you need to be that factor that changes the odds because you cant depend on your team to lead you rather your team depends on you to lead them.

#158 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 05:01 AM

View PostMellifluer, on 22 December 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:


just gonna say if you find yourself losing consistently as bad as you have described. maybe you need to look at yourself and take responsibility for the part you play in this. lets take your post for example
Almost nobody wants to look at their own reflection and see the flaws. It's like Dorian Grey.

#159 F4T 4L

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 05:04 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Almost nobody wants to look at their own reflection and see the flaws. It's like Dorian Grey.


Get her! "Oh, I read, dont you know!?" ;)

#160 Col Jaime Wolf

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 05:18 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 22 December 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Almost nobody wants to look at their own reflection and see the flaws. It's like Dorian Grey.


just trying to help him out of his rut. but ya most people wont stop to take a look at why they are losing they just want to complain and point fingers lol.





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