346 replies to this topic

[ImperialKnight]

Escef, on 06 December 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Ok, put up some builds. Both of you. Give us a some kind of a KGC build that outguns an Atlas. I don't think you are going to do better than equal without serious compromise or outright ignoring your ballistics. It doesn't matter how many hardpoints you have, at this point you are becoming more limited by tonnage.

My AS7-S. Note that leg armor, cooling, and ammo have seen small compromises. 74.4 alpha, 5.83 sustained DPS, 27% cooling.

AS7-S with stock engine and bigger guns. 103.6 alpha with 5.22 sustained DPS and 20% cooling.

If you want a Gauss you lose 5 damage over an AC20. If you want a second AC20 you lose out on secondary weapons. Big guns are NOT damage-to -tonnage effective. Twin LPLs mass as much as an AC20 and deal 22 damage, with no ammo restriction/liability. 4xASRM6 is 16 tons, not quite enough for an AC20 and adequate ammo, but in the change over you go from 48 damage to 20.

So, no, the KGC is not going to outgun the Atlas. More pinpoint? Hell yes, absolutely. The KGC will also probably do better at range (multiple Gauss or light ACs). But not raw firepower. The problem isn't the number of hardpoints, it's that you have a finite amount of tonnage to work with.

The KGC can run those exact same builds if it wants to and it has the option to do cool running high DPS builds like quad AC5s/UAC5s or high alpha PPFLD builds like dual gauss and AC40 which the Atlas cannot.

This makes weapon discussions moot because the KGC can match Atlas builds one for one.

I'll take on an Atlas any day with a quad AC5 build KGC. That build has a sustained DPS of 8.55 and puts 20 damage into ONE single location every 1.66s. Less, with CD modules

[Felicitatem Parco]

Walluh, on 06 December 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

King Crab might have more pinpoint burst, to be fair, but the Atlas is still gonna out brawl it easily. Those manarms.

King Crab with 4 missile, 4 Energy, and 2 Ballistic hardpoints has more *all points* damage potential... not just pinpoint.

[Alistair Winter]

That Guy, on 06 December 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

we have weapon quirks now. you do NOT need to make a mech "unique" by simply slapping on 50% more weapon hardpoints than the other mechs in the weight bracket.

I agree, but unfortunately, PGI is stuck on this path. Hardpoints + quirks = unique mechs.

They could have given the King Crab a severe engine restriction. Which would have made the Atlas more of an agile brawler. But the King Crab has a max engine rating of 360, just like the Atlas. With more torso twist.

I'm rather puzzled by the fact that PGI keeps ignoring their base stats. They use all kinds of crazy solutions to solve mech balance and weapon balance. Is the AC2 underpowered? Give the Dragon AC2 quirks. Is the SPL underpowered? Give the Firestarter SPL quirks. Is the Timber Wolf OP? Give the Summoner jump jet quirks. It never ends. They nerfed the CPLT-K2 torso twist because it was OP, but they'd apparently rather die than do something similar to the TBR.

[Brody319]

Alistair Winter, on 06 December 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

I agree, but unfortunately, PGI is stuck on this path. Hardpoints + quirks = unique mechs.

They could have given the King Crab a severe engine restriction. Which would have made the Atlas more of an agile brawler. But the King Crab has a max engine rating of 360, just like the Atlas. With more torso twist.

I'm rather puzzled by the fact that PGI keeps ignoring their base stats. They use all kinds of crazy solutions to solve mech balance and weapon balance. Is the AC2 underpowered? Give the Dragon AC2 quirks. Is the SPL underpowered? Give the Firestarter SPL quirks. Is the Timber Wolf OP? Give the Summoner jump jet quirks. It never ends. They nerfed the CPLT-K2 torso twist because it was OP, but they'd apparently rather die than do something similar to the TBR.

They are repassing the quirks and changing some of those quirks from ac2s to ac5s.

but yea its pretty clear they were not thinking of the Atlas when they were designing this thing, They were thinking of the Direwhale for IS. and it appears they gave us that. But I think the King Crab may suffer when there are multiple mechs involved with equal power. These were all 1v1 things where the King crab could use its maneuvering advantages to circle the slower Atlas, Warhawk, and Direwhale. but add in 2 more Assaults or some mediums and Its really not going to get a lot of use out of that unless it catches you 1v1.

Edited by Brody319, 06 December 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[Escef]

Prosperity Park, on 06 December 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

King Crab with 4 missile, 4 Energy, and 2 Ballistic hardpoints has more *all points* damage potential... not just pinpoint.

But you aren't going to use all those points to their maximum potential. You just don't have the tonnage for it. quad SRM6 + quad LPL + twin AC20 is 68 tons. 32 tons for structure, engine, armor, ammo, AND heat sinks? Not gonna happen.

[meteorol]

XL engine will totally not be viable on this mech. It looks like you can hit the side torso from any ankle. Those low arms can never shield it.

And there busts the dream of guys rivaling the DWs firewpower with decent speed.

[RangerGee412]

This thing is gonna be sweet. Those high mounted energy are gonna be very nice.

Gonna be fun to see how it performs in a reAl match.

[RagingOyster]

Wait... so we won't be seeing that badass shark mouth skin shown in the concept art? This saddens me greatly

[Felicitatem Parco]

Prosperity Park, on 06 December 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

King Crab with 4 missile, 4 Energy, and 2 Ballistic hardpoints has more *all points* damage potential... not just pinpoint.

Escef, on 06 December 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

But you aren't going to use all those points to their maximum potential. You just don't have the tonnage for it. quad SRM6 + quad LPL + twin AC20 is 68 tons. 32 tons for structure, engine, armor, ammo, AND heat sinks? Not gonna happen.

"Maximum Potential" is hogwash. Do you really think it's the "Maximum Potential" to run 7MPL and 2LPL on a Hunchback 4P? Seriously.

The Crab has the option to run cooler than any Atlas. THAT means more damage potential.

[Greenjulius]

I own every Atlas but the AS7-K, and know many of it's issues well. It's "shape" is not competitive. The King Crab appears to have almost every advantage the Atlas has, and then some. It has the same max engine as evidenced by Sean's screenshots, 360. That confirms all the outrageous builds I've been postulating.

I don't see a downside with going King Crab. It has more hardpoints, better locations for them, high mounted energy and missiles, more ballistics... The only thing it doesn't have is ECM.

It's not going to invalidate Dire Wolves by any measure, but it should be a good matchup. Something to finally give us a good mobile firing platform. And that size and shape? The only weakness it has is LRMs.

It looks like I've found my new favorite assault. Thank god it even LOOKS cool.

[MandyB]

Looks awesome thanks for the info and videos

[Scratx]

Brody319, on 06 December 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

The Direwolf still out guns it. Plus top mounted weapons, Wide arms. Firestarter A Gives the Krab a hug and its pretty much ******. I mean even the mist lynx would be find if it just gave it a hug. has a pretty glaring blind spot like the Stalkers suffer from.

Let's not forget that the KC has at most 10 hardpoints +1 AMS.

Atlas-DDC? 7 +1 ECM +1 AMS
Atlas-D? 8 +1 AMS
Atlas-S? 9 +1 AMS

Now, the RS and K are f***ed, but the others? They're "only" at 80% of the KC in hardpoint terms. So the statement that KC's have 50% more hardpoints than comparable mechs is a fallacious argument. It's obviously untrue, except if you look at the very few underdogs that nobody uses anyway.

Banshees are also far from undergunned in hardpoints. 3E has 8+1, for example. 3M, same. Etc. Nah, the KC actually may have a wee bit too many hardpoints to use. But we're still going to enjoy the heck out of it.

Besides, yes, the clanner counterpart can still pack more guns AND more hardpoints. I mean, Prime arms and dual ballistic side torsos? 12 hardpoints. ggclose. (not that you can actually reasonably use them all but that's besides the point)

[Felicitatem Parco]

Greenjulius, on 06 December 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

I own every Atlas but the AS7-K, and know many of it's issues well. It's "shape" is not competitive. The King Crab appears to have almost every advantage the Atlas has, and then some. It has the same max engine as evidenced by Sean's screenshots, 360. That confirms all the outrageous builds I've been postulating.

I don't see a downside with going King Crab. It has more hardpoints, better locations for them, high mounted energy and missiles, more ballistics... The only thing it doesn't have is ECM.

The King Crab is designed specifically to receive LRMs.

Dat carapace.

Seriously... it will get hit by LRMs that are aimed in the opposite direction.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 06 December 2014 - 10:19 PM.

[That Guy]

RagingOyster, on 06 December 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Wait... so we won't be seeing that badass shark mouth skin shown in the concept art? This saddens me greatly

ill bet the Phranken pattern will have your needs covered.



anyway, since we are probably going to get stuck with this hardpoint layout of the KCG, it needs some negative quirks.

for starters lets say all weapons have take 50% more time to reload/recharge. doing that would make the KCG all about alpha damage, but make it loose out in a DPS fight. make the thing play uniquely.

[Escef]

meteorol, on 06 December 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

XL engine will totally not be viable on this mech. It looks like you can hit the side torso from any ankle. Those low arms can never shield it.

And there busts the dream of guys rivaling the DWs firewpower with decent speed.

What the KGC has going for it is pinpoint potential. Especially up close. A 350 Engine and twin AC20 should be feasible. Twin Gauss with twin PPC will be a little tight with a 325, but it can work.

I'm going to wait and see what happens.

[Sean Lang]

Fixed OP images with all three variants.

[RangerGee412]

Escef, on 06 December 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

But you aren't going to use all those points to their maximum potential. You just don't have the tonnage for it. quad SRM6 + quad LPL + twin AC20 is 68 tons. 32 tons for structure, engine, armor, ammo, AND heat sinks? Not gonna happen.

Comparing maximum firepower is irrelevant. So an atlas can pack more firepower, but in order to use it you have to have 50 percent of your mech exposed vs the crab can choose to shoot over cover. And once in a straight brawl the tall wide atlas torso catch everything thrown at it. By the looks of the kc its short and wide body will allow some srms and some shots to miss. The atlas can twist to protect itself with its arms but all you have to do is aim for the head section and it all goes ct.

[Felicitatem Parco]

RangerGee412, on 06 December 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

Comparing maximum firepower is irrelevant. So an atlas can pack more firepower, but in order to use it you have to have 50 percent of your mech exposed vs the crab can choose to shoot over cover. And once in a straight brawl the tall wide atlas torso catch everything thrown at it. By the looks of the kc its short and wide body will allow some srms and some shots to miss. The atlas can twist to protect itself with its arms but all you have to do is aim for the head section and it all goes ct.

Since when does an Atlas pack more firepower?

[Brody319]

I feel like I tripped into an alternate dimension. We hear nothing but "Direwolfs are OP! we need to buff the IS assaults so they can be good!" and when IS finally gets a Direwolf level mech as they claim they are like "guys, this thing needs a nerf I mean my god"

Like the King Crab is so good even the Pilots are scared of it.

[Escef]

RangerGee412, on 06 December 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

Comparing maximum firepower is irrelevant. So an atlas can pack more firepower, but in order to use it you have to have 50 percent of your mech exposed vs the crab can choose to shoot over cover. And once in a straight brawl the tall wide atlas torso catch everything thrown at it. By the looks of the kc its short and wide body will allow some srms and some shots to miss. The atlas can twist to protect itself with its arms but all you have to do is aim for the head section and it all goes ct.

KGC's going to have its own problems. Can't wait to see light mechs using his back as a landing pad and just ripping him up from there.