90 replies to this topic

[MoonUnitBeta]

Rick Rawlings, on 08 December 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Yes, you did. And your last post was just so many ways of saying it again. Don't want it? Turn it off. Let the people who seem to be able to navigate your non-problems have a very useful tool for puging...

“Don’t like it? Turn it off.”
Yeah great argument. Pretty ironic if you ask me. Something that's supposed to encourage team play, suddenly becomes redudant. Don't be surprised by the amount of people that'll take you up on that.
VOIP is a niche feature at best. It's either a big success or a complete failure. You people think that it's the best feature in the world but you'll be back asking for more when it flops or doesn't completely do the job that you think it'll do.

Just do me a favour and encourage good mic etiquette and I’ll use it if it makes a difference, mkay? Yeah great. Thanks.
Hope you got the point this time.

Dimento Graven, on 08 December 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Hmm... Guess it's just me then. When playing with my own unit,.....

There you go. In your UNIT.
I've clarified in previous posts that in-game chat is a different environment than your server.
It's one thing to accept help from someone you align yourself to, and something totally different to hear from a complete stranger that you got matched with. You assume that your unit is saying what they do in their best intentions; I'm all for getting corrected to get my playstyle to jive with the rest of the unit. It's a ltitle different when you come across strangers that aren't bound by that same understanding.

Edit: Consolodated posts.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 08 December 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[pwnface]

MoonUnitBeta, on 08 December 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

“Don’t like it? Turn it off.”
Yeah great argument. Pretty ironic if you ask me. Something that's supposed to encourage team play, suddenly becomes redudant. Don't be surprised by the amount of people that'll take you up on that.
VOIP is a niche feature at best. It's either a big success or a complete failure. You people think that it's the best feature in the world but you'll be back asking for more when it flops or doesn't completely do the job that you think it'll do.

Just do me a favour and encourage good mic etiquette and I’ll use it if it makes a difference, mkay? Yeah great. Thanks.
Hope you got the point this time.



There you go. In your UNIT.
I've clarified in previous posts that in-game chat is a different environment than your server.
It's one thing to accept help from someone you align yourself to, and something totally different to hear from a complete stranger with a cocky attitude. You assume that you unit is saying so in their best intentions. A ltitle different when you come across strangers that aren't bound by that same understanding.

Edit: Consolodated posts.

You are assuming that every voice communication with any kind of criticism is going to be negative. If I see a new player that is having trouble shooting an enemy because they haven't disabled arm lock, I'd very much like to be able to say "press shift to disable arm lock". At the very least, having voice communications will help focus fire immensely. Currently in solo queue or with small groups people are just shooting at whatever they want which incredibly ineffective compared to focus fire.

If players don't like what they are hearing they can just mute players that are annoying them. It would be super awesome if the game client could remember which players you muted so you never have to hear them again. You mention that players disabling voice communications makes it redundant, however I believe that to be a limited case. I feel that many if not most players will not disable in game voice communications because it will help them coordinate and win matches. Not to mention often times in group queue there will be more than one group that are on their own comms but there simply isn't enough time to exchange teamspeak information and get everyone on the same comms. If I'm drop calling an 8 man group, I'd love to be able to keep the 4 man group on our team in the loop with what we are doing and what our general strategy is. I feel like players in that 4 man group would also like to hear what the game plan is rather than generically following the larger group or running off to play their own game.

[Dimento Graven]

MoonUnitBeta, on 08 December 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

There you go. In your UNIT.
I've clarified in previous posts that in-game chat is a different environment than your server.
It's one thing to accept help from someone you align yourself to, and something totally different to hear from a complete stranger that you got matched with. You assume that your unit is saying what they do in their best intentions; I'm all for getting corrected to get my playstyle to jive with the rest of the unit. It's a ltitle different when you come across strangers that aren't bound by that same understanding.

Edit: Consolodated posts.

But that's my point. Before I joined up with these guys, I didn't know them from Adam, and even though it's not perfect, there's very rarely a useless rant.

I believe that as long as in-game VOIP is implemented properly, the ability to mute individuals, opt-out, and individual user volume control, it WOULD be a good boon for the MWO gaming community as a whole. Also, for the MOST PART I believe that the players would be adult about their conduct and mic etiquette, and those that aren't, I refer you back to my 'implemented properly' statement.

Anyway, I guess we disagree without it degrading to a bunch of name calling, unless of course, that's your preference, then I'll be happy to join in...

[MoonUnitBeta]

pwnface, on 08 December 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

You are assuming that every voice communication with any kind of criticism is going to be negative. If I see a new player that is having trouble shooting an enemy because they haven't disabled arm lock, I'd very much like to be able to say "press shift to disable arm lock". At the very least, having voice communications will help focus fire immensely. Currently in solo queue or with small groups people are just shooting at whatever they want which incredibly ineffective compared to focus fire.

If players don't like what they are hearing they can just mute players that are annoying them. It would be super awesome if the game client could remember which players you muted so you never have to hear them again. You mention that players disabling voice communications makes it redundant, however I believe that to be a limited case. I feel that many if not most players will not disable in game voice communications because it will help them coordinate and win matches. Not to mention often times in group queue there will be more than one group that are on their own comms but there simply isn't enough time to exchange teamspeak information and get everyone on the same comms. If I'm drop calling an 8 man group, I'd love to be able to keep the 4 man group on our team in the loop with what we are doing and what our general strategy is. I feel like players in that 4 man group would also like to hear what the game plan is rather than generically following the larger group or running off to play their own game.

In my defense, I did not assume that all comments are negative. Yes, I’ve talked specifically about negative comments/critisism, but only because they discourage players using voip the most. I did not make the assumption that all comments are negative though. They are indeed the least appreciated however, a response to that would be to disable voip when the player gets sick of muting people. For me, this is true. If it’s not worth the hassle muting people all the time, I just turn it off. Because once people turn it off they never look back, and It just seems like a fragile system to actually be game changing. The more people that disable it, the less effective it becomes as a whole. Worst case scenario is that we end up back at square one looking for another alternative.

My point still stands that an Unit environment is still very different than a PUG, and people need to be careful with what they say and how people could receive that criticism. I know I don’t want anyone to tell me how to play. I am very much a “leave it up to me, and I’ll figure it out.” IN A PUG ENVIRONMENT. I am completely the opposite in a Unit though! I want to know exactly how I must play with the unit, and I want to know everything I can, and I like orders.

Why is it different? Because I am depending on the unit, and the unit is depending on me. This is the understanding, and it is the driving force behind why certain things are tolerated differently when you're part of a unit and not so much when in a PUG. You cannot rely on PUGs. If half the team is listening, and the other is not, that is very unreliable.
When I get an order in a PUG match, so many questions pop into my head: Will they back me up? Am I going to get the full support I need? Are they going to commit to the rush, or half of them going to back away? Who is listening to the orders, and who is just following the team around? Who heard the warning about the flank? Who heard the order in Beta lance to go for the flank?

I agree with many points you make, though. It’d be great if it was a hit. But my expectations are rock bottom. People who have voice chat activated will need to be grouped together in some fashion so that they know who to depend on.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

A mute button is a great idea.....

The number of times I've had people type their rage / anger with my style of play, has been common...

If I dislike seeing their text, just imagine how annoying hearing their pointless whining would be....

[Gattsus]

Vassago Rain, on 08 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I think videogames may be a bit too hardcore for you, as you clearly have problems dealing with people who get mad, and feel that someone losing their temper and threatening to come to your house and beating you up will follow through with it.

It's good that once they do add voice to the game, they'll have a mute button, so you don't have to put up with old men who get angry and complain very loudly in the microphone...

I think that the issue here is that I'm looking for a community driven solution whereas, you are not fan of it. Having said that, the solution proposed by EC it's only a recollection of individual and possibly uncorrelated(?) answers, that as well teaches something to the offender.

Moreover, as you have said you are not fan of "mobs", though I'm not sure you even understand the concept in an applied setting [1]. Despite this, I may suppose that you wouldn't like it to ask for a community driven answer (basically a poll). While on the other hand I would gladly do something along those lines.

Finally, there's a huge difference between us, and that at least in the countries I've lived, violent crimes (namely ****, gun crime, amongst others) are pretty pretty low. Thus, I see as medieval the necessity of having to know how to deal with violent situations. I see how regressive is for a society to have its members spend time in such "training". Every hour put in this, could be an hour used learning something that could benefit your income by teaching you something useful or your society, assuming that you don't work in a company that employs this kind of people, since every piece of knowledge/experience you obtain could spark a startup or a full fledged company. Pushing the idea even further, I pity countries which have to invest in teams such as SWAT or etc, since every cop in the streets is not a PhD doing something "useful". Then given my experience, it´s pretty clear that calls to violent crimes, even as a joke, at least for me, are not an acceptable behaviour, and "being made in the internet" doesn´t make it better. I moved away a bit from the topic though.


[1] I have a test based on a real example, to which I don't know the answer, we could discuss it. Let's suppose 90% of the scientific community agrees that there is global warming, under which conditions:

in which cases the scientific community would be a mob?
in which cases the people -not scientific- that agrees with them are a mob?
in which cases the opposition be a mob?

Edited by Gattsus, 10 December 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Gattsus]

I was going to mention, that so far we have discussed only 2 solutions, that are kinda at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I'm sure that there could be other solutions out there that may appeal most of the player base.

[Vassago Rain]

Beliall, on 10 December 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

What is being called for is too complicated. Mute works. Why do we need to be able to report peoples harassment if we can just mute them and prevent the harassment from ever happening?

OP is under the mistaken belief that extra credits and other assorted junk social justice stuff works, or is somehow necessary. Like he says above, because of gun crime, he feels he needs a way to report people for HARASSMENT in a giant robot shooter game.

I'm sure it made perfect sense to him at the time.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 10 December 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Johnny Z]

I have played one game in which voice comms was not broken or disable or none existant. It was brutal. One match of a guy repeating the same thing over and over was enough for me. Its sad that is all that comes to mind when voice comms is mentioned.

After that experience I think let players use TS if they want to. Forcing it on players isnt cool at all when trolling is like a freaking sport these days.

[Kanigit]

Everytime someone complains about "social justice warriors," you can be sure that said bitching is coming from an unenlightened douchebag uncomfortable with the idea that other people's feeling might actually matter, that people can't just nod in agreement to their "sage" advice. This sort of social retardation only comes from people who fail to do anything but play their little games, and post endlessly about such games. Most people are offended or irritated by knuckle dragging stupidity and endless self aggrandizement. I still see endless posts by several longtime douchebags everytime I come to these forums- they pop up in every damn thread, including of course threads about dealing with harrassment. They don't need to be censored, they need to be pointed at and mocked until they slink back under their rocks or grow up.

To the nice people out there, peace to you.
To the douchebags, just start by getting a clue.

[Gauvan]

Vassago Rain, on 07 December 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

You ever used voice that doesn't have a mute button? Me neither.

MWO is an online multiplayer team game with only the most rudimentary social and communication tools for players. The user interface for mech customization, a large part of the game experience, is an almost impenetrable mess. When it comes to feature proposals for MWO I feel stating the obvious is mandatory.

Mudhutwarrior, on 07 December 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Never trust anyone who promotes the rule of the mob for they generally will promote whatever mob they belong to in the end.

If you are implying that any collective decision making is the same as mob rule, well, no.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." - Winston Churchill

SirLANsalot, on 08 December 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

"Smack Talk" is normal and is applied to your opponents. Whenever you make an epic kill or making it out of a 4v1 with a red CT and still take down a 5th, that is grounds to talk some smack to your opposition showing off you 1337 skills. That is fine and is good for /all chat

You feel it is normal but I don't think that it is a universal. As far as I know the majority of competitive events people engage in value good sportsmanship. This should be more the case in online competitions because in online communications you lose a lot of the context of face-to-face communications. In MWO you are basically in a big room full of strangers of all ages, sexes, and nationalities. I'd suggest starting off courteous and only loosen up with people who know you well enough to understand your ribbing.

Vassago Rain, on 08 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I think videogames may be a bit too hardcore for you, as you clearly have problems dealing with people who get mad, and feel that someone losing their temper and threatening to come to your house and beating you up will follow through with it.

It's good that once they do add voice to the game, they'll have a mute button, so you don't have to put up with old men who get angry and complain very loudly in the microphone...

I think part of being an adult is not shouting at people when you are angry and frustrated, especially strangers. If nothing else it's unproductive.

MoonUnitBeta, on 08 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Ah, yes. This is exactly my point why in-game voip is going to change absolutely nothing at all!

I find it funny, people demand, "we need in-game voip for better communication and commanding!".

[..snip..]

I know a fair amount of people that would prefer to use third party programs. Why?

It’s often better quality.
It’s closed to only the people they’re playing with (so joking around, casual talk, etc doesn’t bother other players that aren’t part of your “group”)
They can mute, kick, or ban players from it.
There’s already a basic understanding and respect that comes with being allowed the privilege to use a server.

[...snip...]

Why shouldn't we expect the same from the official VoIP service?

Beliall, on 10 December 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

What is being called for is too complicated. Mute works. Why do we need to be able to report peoples harassment if we can just mute them and prevent the harassment from ever happening?

I would think it's because the person who acts inappropriately in voice chat is going to act inappropriately in general. I don't think a high mute count is enough in itself to give someone the boot from the game but I think it's a great red flag for PGI to take a look at a player's overall activity.

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

OP is under the mistaken belief that extra credits and other assorted junk social justice stuff works, or is somehow necessary. Like he says above, because of gun crime, he feels he needs a way to report people for HARASSMENT in a giant robot shooter game.

I'm sure it made perfect sense to him at the time.

OP is under the correct assumption that a large number of MWO players would prefer not to get howled at by individuals with poor impulse control. And harassment is specifically prohibited by the game's ToS, so yeah, having an easy way to report it is a pretty good idea.

[Revis Volek]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 December 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I personally rate the application of said harassment, categorize it, and give helpful hints how to do it better.

Then again I'm from an older generation where most harassment was looked upon as "Smack Talk".

There is difference though, Smack Talk is fun and something I welcome. Just being annoying or Playing music over the voip jut to be a d bag on the other hand infuriates me to no end. I mute many, many people all the time in TS. Half the time its because i dont want to hear them and there verbal diarrhea about some mech build or something.

Edited by DarthRevis, 10 December 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[Johnny Z]

This page has thrown alot of light on the Voice comms question. Someone save it lol.

[Gauvan]

Beliall, on 10 December 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

If you cant see there text or hear them talk what is left for them to do? No reason to kick them off the game just because everyone muted them. They have become just a mech on the field. If they arnt TKing what else could you hold against them?

Creating a complicated system just to observe people because of their mute status is a waist of man power.

There are any number of ways to engage in griefing or violating ToS that don't require in-game chat. Also, MWO isn't a free-for-all deathmatch. A player who can't work in a team, including via VoIP, is a handicap. Also, it means every player coming in has to take the time to populate their block lists with repeat offenders that sensibly should have been shown the door.

Beliall, on 10 December 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

How can someone you cant see or hear say anything bother you?

Because MWO is a product with a potential audience of all ages, sexes, and nationalities. If the problem of verbally abusive players is seen as the problem of the end user, and not the community (and PGI), then you essentially are permitting a hostile and uninclusive culture to exist. I would argue that is bad for the community.

[Sybreed]

if you don't have the wits to mute a troll, you deserve to be trolled.

[Vassago Rain]

Gauvan, on 10 December 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

There are any number of ways to engage in griefing or violating ToS that don't require in-game chat. Also, MWO isn't a free-for-all deathmatch. A player who can't work in a team, including via VoIP, is a handicap. Also, it means every player coming in has to take the time to populate their block lists with repeat offenders that sensibly should have been shown the door.

Because MWO is a product with a potential audience of all ages, sexes, and nationalities. If the problem of verbally abusive players is seen as the problem of the end user, and not the community (and PGI), then you essentially are permitting a hostile and uninclusive culture to exist. I would argue that is bad for the community.

As we all know, MWO has a long history of racist, sexist, and nationalistic chatter in game, so it's imperative that we invent a way to erase anyone wh-

Wait, what.

Plz go. Stop ruining one of a handful of videogames left where you can just drop in, shoot robots, and have some weekend fun.

[Kavoh]

How about you just download a 3rd party voip. Problem solved. If the remaining teams really wanted to communicate with your partial premade, they would type. People rarely type as it is, so why bring another medium for communication into play? Majority of pugs don't listen to typing commands, what makes you think for even a second that they would want to listen to "DON'T GO OVER THAT HILL, GO RIGHT GUYS, GO RIGHT. I SAID RIGHT YOU NOOBS". It's nothing but wishful thinking.

I remember the public TS in closed/open beta. Rarely ever was it used by more than a handful of people. And even then, many of the users used it as their clan TS, making up a high % of the servers population. People had the option, and it wasn't hard to do. They just didn't care enough to do so. So let's not dump more resources into a game where they struggle for the simplest %!$@ already so we can buy into a redundant voip.

[Odins Fist]

Gattsus, on 07 December 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

"Voip And How To Handle Harassment."

Code in a "Mute Player" Function..

Also every "CHILD" should have been taught by their "FATHER" a simple little saying.
"Sticks and Stones may break my bones, BUT... WORDS can never hurt me"

Say it with me one more time Participation Trophy Generation...

--"Sticks and Stones may break my bones, BUT... WORDS can never hurt me"--

People with the emotional stability of a cheap lawn chair should be medicated, sterilized and kept away from the rest of society.. LOLZ J/k... maybe

Edited by Odins Fist, 10 December 2014 - 12:38 PM.

[Gauvan]

Vassago Rain, on 10 December 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Plz go. Stop ruining one of a handful of videogames left where you can just drop in, shoot robots, and have some weekend fun.

Sorry, you don't get to throw out insulting and denigrating posts and then try and pitch yourself as some guardian of good clean fun. Nope octopus says nope.

[Pjwned]

If in-game VOIP is ever implemented then use it at your own risk and/or mute people if you don't like them, it's that simple.

We don't need special rules for delicate snowflakes.