56 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

Eboli, on 07 December 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

Another issue will 12 mans crunching small groups/solos in CW and their attitude in doing it.

For how long will smaller groups put up with the $hitty comments from the 12 mans about their game play and rekt, ggclose put down remarks?

If such teams continue to throw out their put down remarks I think it would be this type of attitude which will drive out the smaller group/soloist from CW. People play for fun, not putdowns.

PGI would have to respond somehow to dropping CW numbers and maybe a CW solo queue would be the answer.

Cheers!
Eboli

The reason we have a solo-only queue right now is because PGI noticed players were leaving in droves due to being abused by the highly-trained and organized competitive Units. The only problem is they acted too late and many players never came back even after the solo-only queue was established. If they'd acted sooner, the playerbase might be twice as big as it is now.

Edited by Triordinant, 07 December 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Davers]

Triordinant, on 07 December 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

The reason we have a solo-only queue right now is because PGI noticed players were leaving in droves due to being abused by the highly-trained and organized competitive Units. The only problem is they acted too late and many players never came back even after the solo-only queue was established. If they'd acted sooner, the playerbase might be twice as big as it is now.

It really is one of those 'why wasn't this done at the start' moments PGI is so fond of making.

[Sandpit]

Just to reiterate
(again)
240 deck limit will vary.

[zortesh]

Sandpit, on 08 December 2014 - 12:03 AM, said:

Just to reiterate
(again)
240 deck limit will vary.

Are we forced to bring the full 4 mechs?

I feel we should just have a tonnage limit myself... i mean if its 240 tons and ui feel like bringing 12 lolcusts......

Mind you i feel like that about the matches in general.. even up the tonnage even if one side has a few more mechs on the feild.

[Linkin]

Eboli, on 07 December 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

CW really needs to be successful for MWO's long term existence - this for all players whether large groups, smaller units and soloists.

I believe a lot of the long term players have been holding out for CW and it's new gameplay mode and that they have high hopes for it. If CW does not meet some of what they are hoping for it could just mean that their hope is dashed and the continual gameplay of Conquest, Assault and Skirmish no longer appeals to them.

People tolerate the grind because they know there is a future reward/benefit in it.

I am trying to be constructive here in my comments and I hope that CW pans out to be a great element within the MWO gameplay.

wE shall all find out how it goes over the next month.

Cheers!
Eboli

This 1000 times over. This is a huge part of the game, or should be, for everyone to be a part of, and not just as canon fodder. I know it will be rough as a small group of solo, but u shouldn't have to join a 12 man to feel like you have any type of shot at the CW pie.

[Shredhead]

I usually only take abuse from the smaller groups on the other side, on the rare occasion I'm in a 8+ man team. There is only one big unit that used to fling their BS at their enemies, I genuinely know of no other team that does it.
And btw, there's a difference between smacktalk and insults, as well as there's a difference between a "gg" and a "ggclose".

[Sandpit]

zortesh, on 08 December 2014 - 12:13 AM, said:

Are we forced to bring the full 4 mechs?

I feel we should just have a tonnage limit myself... i mean if its 240 tons and ui feel like bringing 12 lolcusts......

Mind you i feel like that about the matches in general.. even up the tonnage even if one side has a few more mechs on the feild.

Think about the logistics of what you just suggested.
That would imbalance the game horribly. 12 players bringing 12 locusts.

There's a reason there are limits for cw. You're welcome to take whatever you like in pub queue. CW is meant to have limitations for a myriad of reasons. Players aren't forced to do anything as it's a completely optional game mode

[Ursh]

If they can't give me a reason to make progress and contribute as a solo player, they're unlikely to see any money from me.

I'm already in a unit that can field 12 mans, but changes in my habits make their practice times unrealistic for me, so I tend to drop solo for those couple of matches per week that I currently average.

[POWR]

Eboli, on 07 December 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

Another issue will 12 mans crunching small groups/solos in CW and their attitude in doing it.

For how long will smaller groups put up with the $hitty comments from the 12 mans about their game play and rekt, ggclose put down remarks?

If such teams continue to throw out their put down remarks I think it would be this type of attitude which will drive out the smaller group/soloist from CW. People play for fun, not putdowns.

PGI would have to respond somehow to dropping CW numbers and maybe a CW solo queue would be the answer.

Cheers!
Eboli

Or have some sort of ingame system for people to put such behaviour to shame. Like how in League of Legends at the end of a match you can give people a vote based on their behaviour. If enough votes are given about a player being toxic, it'll be taken up for review. LoL has a system where players will review this, to alleviate support, but I guess that's something you can do when you have millions of players, MWO can probably forward it all directly to support.

Also, to those saying that smacktalk is a general thing, then sure. But there is a marked difference between friendly smacktalk and directly hostile remarks that take away from the enjoyment of everyone but the guy uttering it.

Edited by POWR, 08 December 2014 - 01:42 AM.

[kesmai]

I've seen a lot stomps done by those super comp teams.
i' ve seen them losing to mixed 2 3 and 4 man teams. I' seen donegals, qq and others getting rolled by mixed teams without voice coms.no question that organised bigger groups will dominate, but there is still the odd possibility and the hope other will organise too.

[Apocryph0n]

No it won't. It is its own gamemode and has nothing to do with the 12v12 deathmatches we currently have and will still have.


Edit:

It will probably still be all Pinpoint damage builds + more energy weapons, since matches last 30-45minutes in dropship mode and 5t of ammo won't carry you far

Edited by Apocryph0n, 08 December 2014 - 02:01 AM.

[Magna Canus]

kesmai, on 08 December 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

I've seen a lot stomps done by those super comp teams. i' ve seen them losing to mixed 2 3 and 4 man teams. I' seen donegals, qq and others getting rolled by mixed teams without voice coms.no question that organised bigger groups will dominate, but there is still the odd possibility and the hope other will organise too.

I will probably get a lot of contra on this, but in my experience many of the high comp face roll teams make only minimal use of voice comms because everybody generally knows already where to move, how to move together, where the enemy will likely be, etc. Usually it takes a short "C3 push" on Frozen city and that's it. Everybody knows to wait until the assaults pull up before the push begins and then to push hard and keep pushing even if you are all shot up. There is far less use of "self preservation combat mode" on such teams and more working together for the common goal. If mechs are shot up and the team can afford to rotate them out it usually has a specified structure, e.g. wounded mechs roll to the right directly behind fresh mechs.

Amazingly, there is relatively little to no "calling targets" or other chatter in the line. Often the designated drop leader is the only one to speak, with some short info from designated scouts.

Another observation is that lights and fast mediums go out, find the enemy, take a pot shot or two and then return back to the main body for a proper assault.

These are just some minor things that make the comp teams what they are, easy stuff that anybody can do mixed with experience. We have all dropped on the same maps in various modes time and time again. Tactics are limited to a handful of options, so being able to guess what your enemy is doing and countering it or using it to your own strategic advantage is a lot easier.

The more smaller units "get into the groove" of working together intuitively the better off they will be. It's usually the crazy hero tactics, or the "use them as cannon fodder" tactics that get teams rolled. I rolled with the black spikes and the lords just recently and all that was said were short directions at the start of the match and maybe 1 or 2 more tactical changes during the match and that was it. There was enough time and opportunity there that the same commands could have been typed in over team chat. It was a totally mixed group of smaller groups that never played with each other and it worked like a greased machine.

Oh, and the reason why I ended up rolling with lords and black spikes that day is because the lords have been offering help to anybody that feels they need it on a regular basis, the so called "Church of skill".

[Magna Canus]

Apocryph0n, on 08 December 2014 - 01:52 AM, said:

No it won't. It is its own gamemode and has nothing to do with the 12v12 deathmatches we currently have and will still have. Edit: It will probably still be all Pinpoint damage builds + more energy weapons, since matches last 30-45minutes in dropship mode and 5t of ammo won't carry you far

Depends on the mech and what you plan to achieve with those 5t. If you plan on trying to keep that 1 mech alive for the entire match then yes, you will have to conserve ammo and use more energy weapons. If on the other hand you plan in using every mech you brought with you at different stages of the battle, then you can zerg into the enemy and die while spotting for buddies and drop in your next mech. Key is to have some sort of plan when you put your deck together.

[Apocryph0n]

Magnakanus, on 08 December 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:

Depends on the mech and what you plan to achieve with those 5t. If you plan on trying to keep that 1 mech alive for the entire match then yes, you will have to conserve ammo and use more energy weapons. If on the other hand you plan in using every mech you brought with you at different stages of the battle, then you can zerg into the enemy and die while spotting for buddies and drop in your next mech. Key is to have some sort of plan when you put your deck together.

True, I just dislike, from a Tabletop and lorewise point of view the idea of "planning to lose a battlemech". I am always trying to stay alive and dishing out damage as long as I can (not in a coward way but I just don't whelp - mostly, unless there is some surprise DWF around the corner )

[Magna Canus]

Apocryph0n, on 08 December 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

True, I just dislike, from a Tabletop and lorewise point of view the idea of "planning to lose a battlemech". I am always trying to stay alive and dishing out damage as long as I can (not in a coward way but I just don't whelp - mostly, unless there is some surprise DWF around the corner )

I can identify with that. I too would like to keep my mech "alive" as much as possible, but since we don't have the option to switch mech's unless they have been disabled, we have to die to get the next one online.

[Karl Marlow]

Davers, on 07 December 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

People keep using the word meta like it is a foreign concept. Instead of meta, say 'the best'. Will people stop using the best because of CW? No.

To be fair he wasn't asking "Will people stop using the best because of CW?" He is asking will 'the best' change because of CW.

The answer is what is best will be similar to what we have now but whatever emerges in CW will be the best for that specific mode of play.

[Bigbacon]

only thing its going to change is the variety of mech you see in the games.

Davers, on 07 December 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

But people who are competitive usually smack talk. Especially when playing against faceless strangers. Of course, people could just leave Chat off. But they won't.


That would be a way to do it. But solo players don't get to hold territory, so what is their incentive?

I'm glad others are saying the same thing as I. What incentive to solo players have? CW will split the community and then what? they either cater to the smaller set playing CW or the much larger set playing the normal game unless they find a better way to integrate everyone together.

Once the solo teams get stomped 1 or 2 times by a 12man they'll never go back to CW. Once they are gone, the team folks will complain it isn't fun anymore.

they need to get solo folks in there more. I spend tons of money on this game and I play solo and I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy CW one bit. I like the idea though. too much BS being in a clan and having to get people all in the same made up faction isn't going to happen.

[kesmai]

What about the solo droppers fight over certain planets instead of being tagged with a "group" tag, those planets just switch ownership. A solo player will need to be involved in the majority of the fight on that planet to get his/her share of the contract rewards.

[-Natural Selection-]

I am still trying to understand the mindset of the solo players and why are so adamant to be that way.

Its a team based game. You are always going to be in a match with 11 other people. You know that a coordinated group is going to have the advantage (mechs, builds, comms, ect.). Know that CW has been coming for a few years now (we were hoping).

In all this time, why not find 11 other like minded people to enjoy all this with? I mean with so many who seem to feel like they are in the same boat, why not just all form up and put some of the anger into punishing these "groups"?

[Mawai]

Actually, the biggest factor that might change the meta for CW will likely be ammo depletion. I think they have talked about possibly coming up with some way to reload during a match but I haven't seen an explicit statement of the final decision for CW.

----

On November 20th they called ammo a "logistical resource" which would imply that it will be difficult or not possible to replenish (if it was easy to refill it would not be any sort of logistical limitation).

http://mwomercs.com/...-update-nov-20/

"Breaking through the gates is not meant to be an easy task but it is also not meant to be a drain on your logistical resources (ammo)."

---

However, on October 22nd it was stated that this was a "delicate" question that had not been decided yet.

http://mwomercs.com/...pdate-oct-22nd/

[color=#5decb1]How are Mech going to reload ammo in prolonged fight ? I don't think it should be prohibited because it's kind of sad to eject just because you're out of ammo. And if it's available, i don't think it should free either. [/color]

This is a very delicate discussion in the office. We are talking about the possibility of having reload stations in the map but this is not 100% decided yet. I'll post more on this as we make the final call.

---

Reading between the lines, I would guess that ammo replacement is not scoped in the first release of CW phase 2 since they needed the programming resources to implement core functionality. However, since they haven't explicitly ruled it out, I suspect that they plan to see how it goes when CW enters open beta and make a final decision on ammo replacement later when more resources might be available (by calling it open beta they are leaving open the option that it is not feature complete (like MWO has ever been feature complete ).

Anyway, limited ammo is probably the most likely thing that would affect the meta for CW since folks will have to decide whether heavily ammo dependent builds are worthwhile. On top of that the opposing team can simply decide NOT to kill opposing mechs that have run out of ammo ... leaving open the possibility of team killing to get the player back into a useful mech ... I can see lots of interesting complications.

I think for this reason, PGI will need to implement some sort of eject functionality to enable a pilot to abandon their current mech in favour of a different one in their drop deck.