101 replies to this topic

[The Mechromancer]

Using assault mechs to soak damage is literally the worst thing you could do as a team.

So, you want the mechs with the highest firepower, biggest hitboxes, and slowest speed to push through a choke?

Congrats, you just neutered your teams' most powerful weapon platforms.

[luxebo]

Fishbulb333, on 10 December 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Assault mechs are tank-destroyers, not (MMO style damage sponge) tanks. Yes they have more armor than other mechs, big whoop. Mobility (and to a lesser extent, size) helps with survivability in this game infinitely more than having some extra armor. Also, it is not the assault class' responsibilty to babysit and protect the smaller guys. Are the assaults pushing somewhere? Neat, you should follow them. Are they staying back for some reason? You probably should too.

Mobility doesn't allow one to tank hits. Sending a 170+ kph light to tank is bad, and remember that the KGC has 100 DEGREES OF TORSO TWIST. This is extremely valuable and is why the KGC is a better more agile brawler. However I will agree that assaults should control the important part of battle and most strategies should make them a part of. The assaults should take hits, but the rest of the team should help them take hits and dish out damage, otherwise it's just me, myself, and I pushing out of wherever.

The Mechromancer, on 10 December 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Using assault mechs to soak damage is literally the worst thing you could do as a team.
So, you want the mechs with the highest firepower, biggest hitboxes, and slowest speed to push through a choke?
Congrats, you just neutered your teams' most powerful weapon platforms.

So send all the lightest mechs to lead the charge? I'd say a good charge/push with a good direction can do a lot of good things, but it has to be well planned. Rushing into the enemy is less likely to work, which is not what I am asking. I am asking for less assaults to stay at the back of the start areas and more up front; follow your role, as an assault one should be soaking some damage. Not asking people to take damage for the assaults, that is not accurate in my opinion.

Edit: To everyone stating that an assault should be hiding all game, record a few good good games where this strategy has been used and/or describe multiple situations that have happened. The only thing I've been seeing is King Crabs sitting at base launching LRMs or King Crabs in the rear of our team getting swarmed by lights when a slower Dire Wolf is at the front getting also swarmed by lights. This should not be the case and I'm advocating against such situations.

Edited by luxebo, 10 December 2014 - 04:46 PM.

[Fishbulb333]

luxebo, on 10 December 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Mobility doesn't allow one to tank hits.

Correct. It allows you to AVOID hits. Hills, rocks and buildings have infinite armor.

luxebo, on 10 December 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Edit: To everyone stating that an assault should be hiding all game

Literally noone in this thread has said that.

luxebo, on 10 December 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

So send all the lightest mechs to lead the charge?

Or that.

[Odins Fist]

luxebo, on 09 December 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

"Psa: An Assault Mech Most Of The Time Should Be In The Front, Ahem King Crabs"

If you don't know how to pilot an assault....

The problem with Assaults "Playing SMART" really seems to make some pilots cry like 4 year old girls, and to that I say "GOOD".

The Problem "mostly" exists in the Solo Que, you have 2/3 of a Team crying to a lonely assault to push when "THEY" have been using said assault as cover, to the point of shooting said assault in the back and arm. THEN they get mad at the assault pilot for not walking into a hail of fire with 2/3 of the team stopping, or using the assault as bait, or letting him engage and running off. So in SOLO que you see assault basically telling the little girls that are crying to pound sand by playing smart, because they have little or no backup from a team that could possibly be full of Cherry Picking Queens.

NOW, if you are running an 8-12 man, on COMS in "GROUP QUE" you are not likely to see this, BUT if you are running with (1) or (2) friends in group que, and the whole team is a mixed bag of Whoevers, then you can expect to be used as cannon fodder a decent percentage of the time.

REVIEW:
#1. Running Assaults in Group Que in a (8-12) man on Comms = Ok expect coordination and good times.

#2. Running in "Solo Que" as an Assault, expect to be used as bait or worse.

#3. Running in "Group Que" with only (1-2) friend(s), expect a percentage of the time to be used as bait or worse.

NOW you see the Assault pilots problem..!!!
In 2 out of 3 of those examples the Assault pilot is presented with "ZERO" incentive to be someones bait, he is likely to receive little to NO support in 2 out of 3 of those examples.

I do NOT understand why this is so difficult for some players to understand, it's like they are completely oblivious to their immediate surroundings and or mentally handicapped in some fashion.

So I think the standard reply from Assault Pilots to the little whiners in the Solo Que should be standized to this form.. "GO GET YOUR "F"ing SHINE BOX" <--- Quote Good-Fellas.

I don't see assault pilots in 8-12 mans (on Coms) having anything near the kind of problems that the Solo Que offers in terms of whiners and slack jawed rejects..

KING CRABPOCALYPSE: This situation is different, you DO have lots of King Crabbers out there hanging back HOPING to level up their pilot efficiencies because of the KING CRAB release.
Oh, and also that one guy that Pilots a Stalker 5M and goes to the same spot on every map, sandbagging his way to fail, you guys know exactly what i'm talking about, I mean WHO.

Edited by Odins Fist, 10 December 2014 - 05:04 PM.

[luxebo]

Big thumbs up to you Odins Fist for writing that up, summed up something I pretty much forgot to write. Indeed different ques are also a gamechanger, which as said below, one or two heavier assaults are used as damage magnets and tanky brawlers with upfront damage.

Fishbulb333, on 10 December 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Correct. It allows you to AVOID hits. Hills, rocks and buildings have infinite armor.

Multiple people responded that a lighter mech should take the charge up front first.

I'm a bit mistaken on the hiding part, worded it wrongly: should've been that I said among the lines of "To all who think that assaults should only be dishing damage".

Mobility is indeed a gamechanger, but in most cases of competitive groups, one or two guys play as a Stalker/Banshee/Dire Wolf/DDC/and now the KGC as to tank hits and let the others take down enemies. There is a good reason for a guy or two to be more tanky over mobile than the rest of the squad.

And the KGC's large rather than huge archetype and it's immensely powerful torso twist explains a lot to the subject of mobility.

To all:
I think a good example of tanking damage and going to a push outward is the vid that Kon posted:

<Credits to Koniving of course for making the vid.>

This vid shows his KGC pushing outward with other KGCs to take out one guy that got left behind by the rest of the team in a tunnel. However, Kon's team was taken out as the enemy team flanked the KGCs from the exact tunnel they were in, therefore showing at least one Atlas taking hits, pushing outward for the rest to destroy the team. If the KGCs instead went above the docks to flank the enemy the match could've ended a lot better overall, rather than back to the city, which shows the need for a spreading of one's damage among the heavier mechs in the field.

Edited by luxebo, 10 December 2014 - 05:13 PM.

[gregsolidus]

A proper defensive posture is generally the best bet for something as big and slow as a 100 ton assault mech. With that in mind they should make a conscious effort to keep with the central mass of their teams formation and their team should make a conscious effort to not run off like lemmings and then whine when they left the team's linchpins in the dust. It's not as simple as "stand in front of everyone else".

[Mirumoto Izanami]

This is one of those cases were TT play translates well into MWO:

Slow Mech play : Advance under cover until you can bring your firepower to bear with minimalised risk to yourself, engaging at the range that best suits your weapons loadout, while [the range] being detrimental to your enemy's weapon loadout if possible.

Fast Mechs : Use mobility to keep yourself alive while you take shots of opportunity.

At no time do you want to make a push into the open unless you /know/ you have an advantage to be exploited.

[luxebo]

gregsolidus, on 10 December 2014 - 06:12 PM, said:

A proper defensive posture is generally the best bet for something as big and slow as a 100 ton assault mech. With that in mind they should make a conscious effort to keep with the central mass of their teams formation and their team should make a conscious effort to not run off like lemmings and then whine when they left the team's linchpins in the dust. It's not as simple as "stand in front of everyone else".

I would promote defending base during assault or slowly advancing, but it never happens. Therefore just stating that assaults should move forward is well to do already in pug matches.

Mirumoto Izanami, on 10 December 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

This is one of those cases were TT play translates well into MWO:
Slow Mech play : Advance under cover until you can bring your firepower to bear with minimalised risk to yourself, engaging at the range that best suits your weapons loadout, while [the range] being detrimental to your enemy's weapon loadout if possible.
Fast Mechs : Use mobility to keep yourself alive while you take shots of opportunity.
At no time do you want to make a push into the open unless you /know/ you have an advantage to be exploited.

Never push directly into the open, try to push with cover to slowly make your way into a secure location. For example, don't go straight to the ridge in Tourmaline Desert unless you know you can make it there, and instead take a longer flank route to the back area so to catch most on surprise. Don't also squeeze through one area but instead go through different back routes to take them down quicker (or it might end badly going in 1 by 1.)

[RiggsIron]

I bet its because 9 times out of 10 - when i push in my assault - team stays in hiding.

It might only be 4 out of 5 times.

So yeah *ahem* when most people hide (because of snipers and LRMs) - Im just going to hide in my assaults too.

Because teamwork.

[Walluh]

Assaults aren't invincible, nor are they your personal meat shield/sacrificial lambs. Assaults will start pushing when the heavies start going with them, not forming a conga line behind their back. Or, like usual, just stay in hiding while they get mowed down.

[Stormyblade]

Vassago Rain, on 09 December 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

While farming crabs tonight, I saw some of the most horrible builds ever, including XL engines bolted onto 100 tonners.

Love the "farming crab" comment there...

As for builds...one guy mentioned he had an XL360 so his Crab could get some speed going -- when asked if he was insane or just stupid his reply was he needed to free up the weight for his massive firepower he was bringing. Guess who was the first to melt?

[Ryan220]

Kraven Kor, on 10 December 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

The problem is that the guy in front dies.

I resemble that comment.

As a newb player (7 days) that runs almost exclusively in Locusts its been a very trying time for me.

Send forth the sacrificial Crabs!

[Charronn]

Remember and don't leave the big guys behind at the start if you want support.The King is slow and takes a while to get to the party.
The amount of times I've been left at the start....Another pet hate is being blocked in by effing lights when your trying to lay down the pain (yes you mr lolcust on Manifold last night,I shoulda just killed you for it but I don't roll that way,you ended up getting me cored then yourself ganked for your idiocy).
So don't yolo at the start and actually escort the big guys.

[kapusta11]

Big guys are not there to tank, they are there to kill stuff, if someone needs to push first it's a bunch of lights, they are perfect at drawing fire.

[Novawrecker]

kapusta11, on 11 December 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Big guys are not there to tank, they are there to kill stuff, if someone needs to push first it's a bunch of lights, they are perfect at drawing fire.

Hate to disagree with you, but 100 ton mechs ARE there to tank, to take the blows while dishing it out. Drawing fire and absorbing them are two different beast. So if many can't grasp that concept that carrying 19 (or close to 19) tons of armor means they are meant to take it as much as they can dish it out, then said players need to stop playing those mechs and make room for those that do understand that roll.

Edited by Novawrecker, 11 December 2014 - 02:38 AM.

[Thunder Child]

If you want Tanks, send in the Firestarters. They seem to have the wonkiest hit reg at the moment, and can survive a stupidly large amount of firepower. Then, once the entire enemy team turns to chase said Firestarter (or if the PUG Lottery is with you, THREE, yes, THREE Pulse Spewing Mini Firegods of Hitreg DEATH), THAT is when the Assault mechs should roll over the hill, tearing the rear armor out of the enemies with their dual AC20 goodness.

This requires precise timing however, as roll in too soon, and the enemy will see you coming, turn around, and possibly shoot back (half the team is still likely to be chasing the Firestarter, so it's not all bad). Too late, and eventually CLG catches up to the poor Firestarters, and they fall. Ideally, one or more Firestarters also happened to pop a UAV, so you should be raining LRMs of DOOOOOM (they aren't really that bad, but most PuGs seem to hate them) on the enemy as you advance. You DO carry a token LRM 5 for scaring the living bejeezus out of newbies, right?

[ZenFool]

Lights-spotters and squirrels, they can pull parts of the enemy apart, then take advantage of lone mechs(crabs) and take them out.

Mediums-My weight class. We are spotters who have the mobility to swarm a target. I often use my sensor suite to paint targets while rolling long range sniping shots.

Heavies-The tanks. They roll in on targets painted by mediums and trade shots while rolling damage. Just mobile enough to take advantage of sensors while not mobile enough to disengage easily.

Assaults-Too slow to be effective at first striking marked targets, assaults roll in on a battle in progress and eat the unfortunate. No chance of disengaging, so information is key to survival.

I don't expect assault mechs to lead a charge, but I certainly expect them to enter the fray at some point. Too often in pug matches I find two assault mechs with fresh armor trying to engage 6,8, or 10 enemy mechs. It. Never. Works.

Good pug teams use each weight class effectively. I don't want my lights heroing into the entire enemy team, I don't want my mediums getting into prolonged battle with no support, I don't want my heavies chasing the battle, and I don't want my assaults being used as meatshields.

In the end, one side wins, one side loses. Its just frustrating when people either don't know how to use their weight class effectively or find themselves abandoned by others who don't know how. Assaults should NOT be in the rear, but neither should they ever roll alone. team game

[Ursh]

Meds/Heavies who claim they aren't front-line mechs, and end up with 500+ damage and 6 kills because they lurked on the edges most of the fight, and then vultured at the end...now they're complaining someone isn't soaking damage for them.

What if the King Crab pilot wants to lurk and then feast on the stripped mechs at the end?

Think of the needs of the Crab!

[Sjorpha]

I agree that assaults need to be IN the charge/push, but they should usually not spearhead through chokes and such. From a team perspective the assaults are your most valuable chess pieces on the board, they need to be protected so they can blow **** up. IF you expect to lose mechs because there is a narrow chokepoint you have to push through, it is better to sacrifice a couple mediums or heavies and have your assaults right behind them so they can open up their full firepower in immediate retaliation. It is of course difficult to think that way in the solo que.

It doesn't really matter what mech you're in when it's time to do a team push, EVERYONE hanging back at that point is hurting the team. Even LRM boats needs to be an active part of the push so the bulk of approaching metal reaches critical mass, they just need to be in the correct position in the push to use the LRMs. 180m is close enough that you can be the third line of any push, so get in there.

But one thing I've learned is that you simply can't reason the same way in solo que, you have to get in the zone with your team. If you happened to drop with a defensive team, then perhaps pushing isn't the right approach in that match.

Also the only thing you need to do in that kind of match to put the assaults in the front in such a match is to retreat behind them yourself and let the enemy do the moving. It's boring and not an optimal strategy, but it's a hell of a lot better than suiciding into the enemy firing line.

Also the OP reasons as if the only viable King Crab builds are brawlers, that is just not the case. The King Crab does both fire support and long range support very well. I'm just as glad to have a dual gauss + 2 PPC sniper or a well played LRM boat backing me when i brawl in my mediums as I am brawling with a 2x AC20 + srm KGC buddy. All three scenarios leads to the enemy dying before me.

[WhoopieMonster]

If you group up and protect your assaults at the start then they will be happy to push mid to late game. To often I am left behind and expected to fend for my self, should I survive the light/medium onslaught then I'm normally in no condition to lead a charge.

The last game I played today I was the only 100T assault mech. DireWhale, without speed tweak (first one I've got, with C-Bills). Got abandoned by 2 TBR and a WubShee. I never managed to catch up with the group from the start and eventually got killed all alone. So from my point of view, firstly you need to escort your assaults to the front line and then they will lead the charge and attract fire. They can't do that if they are miles behind your lines alone.