Jump to content

Why Take An Atlas Over A King Crab?


164 replies to this topic

#61 SgtMagor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 3,542 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 04:29 AM

View PostThe Boz, on 10 December 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

...which is exactly what I say to all the "Atlas can torso-twist and arm-tank better" peeps. Of which there are a lot.
dunno about that, have you looked at the torso turn, and speed for the KC?

#62 The Boz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,317 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 04:32 AM

...I claim that precisely because I have seen the rate and freedom of the KGC's torso twist.
Maybe there's a miscommunication somewhere?

#63 Torgun

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,598 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 04:41 AM

View PostSgtMagor, on 10 December 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

dunno about that, have you looked at the torso turn, and speed for the KC?


Smurfy says KGC has 60 deg/sec torso yaw speed with a 300 engine, which is the same as the Atlas. But KGC also has a 25% torso yaw speed increase quirk. so it actually has 75 deg/sec torso yaw speed. That's even more than a 15t lighter Stalker that has 70 deg/sec torso yaw speed with a 300 engine. It's simply too good to be balanced with other mechs but since KGC is a new mech available for MC right now, so........

Edit: KGC actually has even higher torso yaw rate than I thought at 75deg/sec with a darn 300 engine.

Edited by Torgun, 10 December 2014 - 04:53 AM.


#64 Mawai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 3,495 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 05:41 AM

View PostJohnny Z, on 10 December 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

Totally agree and the Man O War may be in the same boat. They have added alot of firepower to the mechs so far withe addition of the Omni mechs and quirks, it may be time to add some durability.

Its very likely in the works. The complaints about OP Omni mechs was answered by the quicks which no doubt was in the plans all along.


It's interesting but I think you give PGI far too much credit by suggesting that quirks and the other responses from PGI were in the plans all along. PGI is small. Most of the design decisions are ultimately handled by one person. Given the time frames involved I would suggest that all of the changes to the game are reactive not pro-active. After sufficient time and complaint, PGI (or perhaps it was IGP) realized there was an issue and responded with some change to try to address it.

If clan mechs turn out to still be more powerful than IS in CW then I believe what will happen is that PGI will apply hit point quirks ... either structure or armor ... across the board to all IS mechs ... probably scaled by tier. The result will be an increase in durability of IS mechs to balance the greater dps and effectiveness of clan weapons. This should balance out the "time to kill" stat for clan vs IS without requiring further clan nerfs which many might find irritating.

I believe that this can already be seen happening with the latest round of quirks. Increases to catapult arm and CT structure ... increases to hunchback structure ... arm armor bonus on king crab etc.

... but I don't think any of it was planned.

#65 Lily from animove

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Devoted
  • The Devoted
  • 13,891 posts
  • LocationOn a dropship to Terra

Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:05 AM

because atlas has 2B in the Sideotrso, so its safer to twist and eat damage with the arms and not loosing those wepaons.
because atlas also has some variants with 3 M in the torso. (S even 4)
because one atlas has a ECM.
because some atlas have more E points.
because quirks are different


because they are entirely different mechs at all with totally different features.

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 December 2014 - 06:08 AM.


#66 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:31 AM

View PostMawai, on 09 December 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

why would I ever drive one of my Atlas' over the King Crab?
Because you want to.


Do you need any other reason? :huh:

#67 Bront

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 4,212 posts
  • LocationInternet

Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:49 AM

View PostLefty Lucy, on 10 December 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:


You realize that the KGC has a quirk that gives it better torso twist than an atlas no matter what engine you put in the atlas? Also, they both have exactly the same engine weights, so it's exactly as difficult/easy to put a big engine in either mech.


Yes, but Balistics are heavier and take up more crits. I've had no issues shoving a 325-350 in most Atlas builds. I've had trouble doing that in any King Crab builds I've fabricated. The second large Balistic area and need for more ammo is a big deal.

View PostThe Boz, on 09 December 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

What, being underarmed is now a *feature* eh?!

No, but being fast is.

DDC or S that's 10 KPH faster than the King Crab or Dire Wolf has an advantage on the battle field bringing it's armor and weapons to bear.

#68 Jam the Bam

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 535 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:52 AM

One major advantage the Atlas has is that it can actually use its arms to shield, the King crabs arms simply don't come anywhere near covering those enormous side torsos. But I suppose after that its down to personal preference, currently I like the King Crab more, but then again I'm not really an assault pilot so I'm not very proficient with either.

#69 The Boz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,317 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:53 AM

...and the KGC can't be fast because...?

#70 Creovex

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blood Bound
  • The Blood Bound
  • 1,466 posts
  • LocationLegendary Founder, Masakari Collector, Man-O-War Collector, Wrath Collector, Gladiator Collector, Mauler Collector

Posted 10 December 2014 - 06:56 AM

View PostJC Daxion, on 09 December 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

pop off the crab's arms.. Dip um in butter.. and now you have a slow as heck under powered medium..?


Realistically, the King Crab is fun but it's pinpoint FLD requires open full body LOS...

Thus, to get the true value, you need to expose your full "wideness" to dominate... I can say that the Gargoyles I was running kept beating them in River City, Factory and Frozen City due to the need to navigate around things... Take away one arm.. you get the Hunchback and that is it....

Edited by Creovex, 10 December 2014 - 06:57 AM.


#71 Barantor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 2,592 posts
  • LocationLexington, KY USA

Posted 10 December 2014 - 07:11 AM

View PostMawai, on 10 December 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

... but I don't think any of it was planned.


Dunno, ever played any MOBA ever? The new characters are always overpowered for a week or two so that it helps generate sales for it, then they nerf it back to normal levels. I don't blame companies that do this because there are folks that "have to" have the newest that they perceive is the best.

The company can always claim it as a 'mistake' and then they fix it, but it happens enough that it sure does feel on purpose.

I'm eager to see how well these King Crabs stand up after the chaos of the queue settles down a bit and folks get them mastered more. Some of it could be folks just not knowing their weak points yet too, but time will tell if this is true or not.

#72 FearNotDeath

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 305 posts
  • LocationNew York

Posted 10 December 2014 - 07:21 AM

Why take a jenner over a firestarter? An orion over a timberwolf? Something needs to be the best in the weight class they can't all be the same.

#73 Mordric

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Defiant
  • The Defiant
  • 237 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMI

Posted 10 December 2014 - 07:25 AM

I'm doing pretty good with my atlas, I use the atlas-s or the BH

#74 Duke Nedo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 07:55 AM

View PostThe Boz, on 10 December 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

1. Is there something unique to the geometry or limitations of the King Crab that prevents it from packing an STD350? Or are we back to the "underarmed is a feature now" argument?
2. Atlas with a STD350 (hell, even with a 400) can not twist better than a King Crab with a 300.


1. The builds I tried could not make use of the carbs hardpoints and fit a 350.

2. From what I have seen, twisting with the crab does not shield it with its arms, it only exposes the huge STs, which are the soft spot...

Didn't make up my mind yet, but in a short range brawl I have a feeling that the Atlas may still be king. May be...

#75 The Boz

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,317 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 08:01 AM

Hey, if speed is such a cool advantage, why don't you dump a gun or two and pack a bigger engine?

#76 JC Daxion

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 5,230 posts

Posted 10 December 2014 - 03:34 PM

View Postoldradagast, on 09 December 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:


King Crab Advantages
1) Extreme ballistics boating capability
2) High mounted weapon hardpoints (missiles and energy)
3) Rather short profile for a 100-ton mech.

The Crab's advantages are far more useful in nearly all cases. With some practice, the width of the King Crab and the negative effect that has on weapon convergence can be handled... but nothing can magically grant the Atlas a high-mounted weapon hardpoint or the ability to boat absurd amounts of ballistics.

In the end, unless you're using the ECM on the DDC, the Atlas really isn't worth it... the only way this conclusion would be countered is if the King Crab has serious hitbox or mobility issues, and I haven't see any strong evidence for either of those yet.



well after a night of Lurming for crabs,, i can say boy, do these things suck up missles, and not in a good way.. the way the spread on the crabs, you can wreck um in a very short time. I swear out of the 20+ matches i played, a Crab only took the top spot a couple of times, most of the time they were in the middle damage range, or near the bottom.

They also have HUGE arms.. so easy to hit from so many locations were you are in zero danger of being hit by the massive weaponry. . I can't wait for another night of Lurming.. Not to mention dropping art strikes on um.. to slow to even get out of the way even dropping the smoke right in front of um.

Sure last thing i want is to round a corner and come face to face with one,, but that is pilot error, not me playing a bad mech..


But people really need to get over this whole if you bring X mech, you are hurting your team.. cause most of the time that is such crap.. the pilot makes the mech.. If i had a dollar for every time a dire, or timber, or any other "best mech" in the game dropped with under 100 damage, i'd have enough cash to buy every style mech in PGI gold versions..

#77 Mordric

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Defiant
  • The Defiant
  • 237 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMI

Posted 11 December 2014 - 04:42 PM

I agree, It's the pilots skill that makes a mech good. took me a long time to learn to be ok in an atlas. and I still can not play a mech under 50 tons worth a crap.. just can not get the fill for them. but I've seen people a light mech like a Spider or Commando or a Jenner with only 1 o 2 weapons and make top kills and damage wih the? WTF wish I could do that. those are also might I add annoying players that I'm always happy to have on my team. lol

#78 zagibu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,253 posts

Posted 11 December 2014 - 04:45 PM

ECM seems to be pretty important in attack/defense (especially as defense), so I guess the DDC is a valid choice.

#79 Saiphas Cain

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 189 posts

Posted 13 December 2014 - 03:40 PM

The Atlas seems to have one acceptable build strategy whereas the crab has far greater versatility of hardpoints. Mounting an XL in a crab, while frowned upon by many, doesn't prevent them from bringing 2 AC/20's whereas the Atlas cannot bring even one with an XL engine. I'm not saying an XL on an atlas is a good idea, I'm just pointing out how the frame has limited flexibility.

They have the same engine rating ranges so whining that the Crab is slower because you have to sacrifice some engine tonnage to actually mount that insane array of weaponry you want to is hardly an argument. That's like arguing your pickup truck is slow because you insist on filling the bed with cement.

On durability, it is true that the crab can't arm tank as well as the atlas due to design. It's also true that the first crit after torso armor is stripped means an Atlas is losing that AC/20 even if the torso's internal structure survives the entire match. Extra armor is far superior to extra internal structure. The Crab is, however, considerably more compact vertically than an atlas and can peep for shots. The atlas doesn't have this option. The Crab does take LRM's like an apartment complex, though I'm not sure if the Atlas' tall profile is really any better in this regard.

I think the biggest concern is when an atlas is coming at you, you pretty much know what you're going to get. It's that, or terrible. The crab is more versatile, and can mount pretty much anything the Atlas can with the exception of ECM if it wants to. Apart from ECM it seems to make the Atlas obsolete.

#80 Summon3r

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,291 posts
  • Locationowning in sommet non meta

Posted 13 December 2014 - 03:50 PM

for ecm





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users