250 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Wintersdark, on 09 January 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Yes, there was an explanation.

That's because after it's made your 12 man, it has to build another 12 man for defending players. The 10 minute wait is the time the MM spends trying to find an enemy team, if it doesn't find a complete enemy team. If it goes the whole ten minutes, you end up with an unopposed attack. This could happen with MANY people in the queue if they're all, say, in 5 man groups for example, where making a 12 man is impossible.

WRONG. You missed what I had stated.

We spent 5 minutes building our group. Once we had our 12, it waited ANOTHER 10 minutes of COUNTING UP, BEFORE it started counting down waiting for an enemy group to be formed.

So it was 15 f'ing minutes of sitting there waiting for the damn counter to start going down its 10 minute wait.

What.the.F!

[Cimarb]

Dimento Graven, on 09 January 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

WRONG. You missed what I had stated.

We spent 5 minutes building our group. Once we had our 12, it waited ANOTHER 10 minutes of COUNTING UP, BEFORE it started counting down waiting for an enemy group to be formed.

So it was 15 f'ing minutes of sitting there waiting for the damn counter to start going down its 10 minute wait.

What.the.F!

Are you saying it said "player receiving orders" or whatever, or you had a full 12-man already? If you had a 12-man, it must be a bug, but if it is forming a team around your group, it could have been because the other people it chose kept dropping out, or many other reasons. Only once you can see all 12 players names has it actually successfully made a team, and only then does it start counting down.

[Dimento Graven]

Cimarb, on 09 January 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Are you saying it said "player receiving orders" or whatever, or you had a full 12-man already? If you had a 12-man, it must be a bug, but if it is forming a team around your group, it could have been because the other people it chose kept dropping out, or many other reasons. Only once you can see all 12 players names has it actually successfully made a team, and only then does it start counting down.

Yes, I'm saying that after the 5 minute wait to get 12 people listed as "player receiving orders" it made us wait over 10 more minutes before the timer reset to 10:00 and started counting down.

We had a full team, no one dropped out for the 10+ minute wait.

Very frustrating when you're trying to get drops in to defend a planet.

[Cimarb]

Dimento Graven, on 09 January 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

Yes, I'm saying that after the 5 minute wait to get 12 people listed as "player receiving orders" it made us wait over 10 more minutes before the timer reset to 10:00 and started counting down.

We had a full team, no one dropped out for the 10+ minute wait.

Very frustrating when you're trying to get drops in to defend a planet.

So you saw everyone's names? Big different there, as just having placeholders does not constitute a full team.

[Dimento Graven]

Cimarb, on 10 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

So you saw everyone's names? Big different there, as just having placeholders does not constitute a full team.

You'll have to explain to me the logic of having empty slots, then getting them filled with "Player awaiting orders", and then having to wait so long.

I can't think of anything that isn't stupid.

[Roadbeer]

Dimento Graven, on 10 January 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

You'll have to explain to me the logic of having empty slots, then getting them filled with "Player awaiting orders", and then having to wait so long.

I can't think of anything that isn't stupid.

Let me break down what's happening there.

When you're in the "Pilot Awaiting Orders" screen, you are in the Ghost Queue. Even though it is full, at any point some of those players who have been in the queue longer *can* be pulled out to fill another 12 that has been in the Ghost Queue longer (I've seen it happen when a 5 man was pulled out of the group I was in to help fill another 12 that had been in the queue longer. FIFO (First In, First Out).

If you are a full 12 player group (12 players of the same unit, all in the same group) and you are waiting in the ghost queue, with all 12 "Pilot Awaiting Orders", then what is happening is you are waiting for one of the 15 zones to become available (it is likely that they are all full) for you to queue on OR there is another group (not necessairly 12) in the queue before you. Since it can't use your full 12 man to fill the holes in it, it is tetrising others in the Ghost Queue to complete that group before you (FIFO), THEN when your turn comes up.

Once you hit a Zone Queue, THEN the 10m counter starts where it tries to find you an opponent (out of the OP4s Ghost Queue)

Also, in the case you are describing, in a Defend situtation, if all of the "occupied" zones are currently engaged (someone else is Counter Attacking a zone that has been lost to an attacker) there is no place to put you if there isn't someone else attacking. It's not going to drop you into a defense mode map to sit there for 30 minutes, so until someone else attacks, OR an occupied zone opens for you to Counter Attack, you could be sitting in the Ghost Queue for a very long time.

[Wintersdark]

Roadbeer, on 10 January 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

Let me break down what's happening there.

When you're in the "Pilot Awaiting Orders" screen, you are in the Ghost Queue. Even though it is full, at any point some of those players who have been in the queue longer *can* be pulled out to fill another 12 that has been in the Ghost Queue longer (I've seen it happen when a 5 man was pulled out of the group I was in to help fill another 12 that had been in the queue longer. FIFO (First In, First Out).

If you are a full 12 player group (12 players of the same unit, all in the same group) and you are waiting in the ghost queue, with all 12 "Pilot Awaiting Orders", then what is happening is you are waiting for one of the 15 zones to become available (it is likely that they are all full) for you to queue on OR there is another group (not necessairly 12) in the queue before you. Since it can't use your full 12 man to fill the holes in it, it is tetrising others in the Ghost Queue to complete that group before you (FIFO), THEN when your turn comes up.

Once you hit a Zone Queue, THEN the 10m counter starts where it tries to find you an opponent (out of the OP4s Ghost Queue)

Also, in the case you are describing, in a Defend situtation, if all of the "occupied" zones are currently engaged (someone else is Counter Attacking a zone that has been lost to an attacker) there is no place to put you if there isn't someone else attacking. It's not going to drop you into a defense mode map to sit there for 30 minutes, so until someone else attacks, OR an occupied zone opens for you to Counter Attack, you could be sitting in the Ghost Queue for a very long time.

This is both very informative, and also wins +5 Internet's for coining the term "Ghost Queue".

Pure win.

[Roadbeer]

Wintersdark, on 10 January 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

This is both very informative, and also wins +5 Internet's for coining the term "Ghost Queue".

Pure win.

I can't take credit, IIRC, Russ called it that at a Town Hall meeting, or he said "Ghost Players" and either myself or StillRadioactive coined the term in explaining all this in various other threads.

[Dimento Graven]

Roadbeer, on 10 January 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

When you're in the "Pilot Awaiting Orders" screen, you are in the Ghost Queue. Even though it is full, at any point some of those players who have been in the queue longer *can* be pulled out to fill another 12 that has been in the Ghost Queue longer (I've seen it happen when a 5 man was pulled out of the group I was in to help fill another 12 that had been in the queue longer. FIFO (First In, First Out).

PREFACE: While I will maintain an argumentative tone, I am not necessarily arguing with "you", but with the oddness if 'true' of what you've said, I mean no offense, or to get you riled up. I just choose to take this confrontationally:

Things that don't make sense #1 - If there's another queue that's been waiting to fill in already, WHY is it starting ANOTHER group? Why not fill in the first group FIRST, THEN start another? Secondly, 10+ minutes of sitting there waiting to have my FULL group broken apart just in case there was another group forming ahead of me seems a 'bit' extreme, at the least.

Quote

If you are a full 12 player group (12 players of the same unit, all in the same group) and you are waiting in the ghost queue, with all 12 "Pilot Awaiting Orders", then what is happening is you are waiting for one of the 15 zones to become available (it is likely that they are all full) for you to queue on OR there is another group (not necessairly 12) in the queue before you. Since it can't use your full 12 man to fill the holes in it, it is tetrising others in the Ghost Queue to complete that group before you (FIFO), THEN when your turn comes up.

Once you hit a Zone Queue, THEN the 10m counter starts where it tries to find you an opponent (out of the OP4s Ghost Queue)

Also, in the case you are describing, in a Defend situtation, if all of the "occupied" zones are currently engaged (someone else is Counter Attacking a zone that has been lost to an attacker) there is no place to put you if there isn't someone else attacking. It's not going to drop you into a defense mode map to sit there for 30 minutes, so until someone else attacks, OR an occupied zone opens for you to Counter Attack, you could be sitting in the Ghost Queue for a very long time.

Had the planet been at 60+/60+ I might concede the point that it could have been possible that there 360+ (15*12*2) people waiting in the queue for one of the slots to open up.

Things that don't make sense #2: Highly unlikely, BUT, in that circumstance, how can you argue, you don't have the data to refute it, HOWEVER, at the time the planet was something like 36/48 (I know this because I keep my laptop logged in on an alternate account to keep track of what's getting attacked where to try and suggest what the next planet to attack/defend should be, AND, to know approximately how close the enemy is to finally filling their 12 man so's if'n I gots time fer t'git another beer, or tap a kidney).

So there should have been PLENTY of planetary slots open, no need to keep 12 people waiting an effective 2 man hours (10 minutes * 12 people) sitting around twiddling thumbs.

Things that don't make sense #3: Given that the enemy had won some sectors, at the very least ONE OF THOSE should have been open for 'counter attack', again, which if nothing else would have been a turret run that could have been ended quickly so that I and the 11 other people could have gone on to another planet afterwards.

Instead, nearly an hour was wasted on ONE MATCH.

Unacceptable.

That queue system needs some SERIOUS work.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 10 January 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[Roadbeer]

We're going to chalk a lot of this up to PGI being really bad at explaining things. What I've learned about the Queues comes from Tweets w/ Russ, Karl Berg's thread and personal observations.

So, having said that....

First, what happens in the Ghost Queue.

This is the pre-matchmaker where groups are put together. It is FIFO, but it is biased to making 12 as quick as possible. Say 60 people queue up on Wazan. The Ghost Queue starts putting groups together in a way that creates 12 the fastest. 10 man and 2 pugs, 7 man and 5 pugs, etc. If suddenly a 5 man enters the Ghost Queue and a 7 man is already waiting, it will purge the pugs from the 7 man group and put the 5 man in it's place (This is where you'll suddenly see a large group of Pilot Awaiting Orders" suddenly dump from your queue)

At this point, no group (unless it's a prebuilt 12 man Unit Group) is actually put together, it just has the combinations built and waiting for the next Zone Queue to open, during this time, if a player or group drops from the queue, it is rebuilt as best as can be, but may determine it's priority position based off of FIFO. (if that 7 man that was in the queue the longest dumps out, the 5 man that was placed with it suddenly gets put back into it's original place in line)

Once a Zone Queue opens up, it takes the group who's members have been in the Ghost Queue the longest and places them in it.

How Zone Queues work (Attacking a Planet):

When you queue up to attack a planet, and you have spent the time in the Ghost Queue getting your 12 players tetrised together it then puts you in a Zone Queue, this is where one of the 15 zones has been selected for your attack on, all the while it has been chewing the Defenders Ghost Queue to put together 12 to defend the zone.
This is why it takes anywhere between 1-10 minutes in the Zone Queue before you get a match. If a Defender for your attack is found, a 1 minute count down starts, if no defender is found by 10 minutes, a turret drop is launched. At any point during the 10 minutes a defender can be found then the 1 minute countdown begins (I've actually been in a couple queues when we got down below the 30 second mark, and it kicked back up to 1 minute because an OP4 was put together).

Once that match is created and launched, the Matchmaker goes to the next zone available and pulls a group of attackers out of the Ghost Queue and begins the process again.

While this may seem like a lot of wasted time in the queue, I understand it as a stop gap to slow a planets acquisition via turret drops. If it didn't run this way, then 5 groups could get together and take a planet from 0 to 100% in as little as 45 minutes if it is undefended.


I agree there should be a happy medium between this, maybe the zone queue firing off faster if there are active defenders, I'm sure this is a WiP we'll be seeing Soon^TM

How Zone Queues work (Defending a Planet):

Take all the information I've given above, now apply that to only if there is an occupied/contested zone. That is to say, there is nowhere for the Zone Queue to put you if there are no attackers OR there are no zones that have been taken by attackers. If the above are both true, then the Zone Queue pulls from the Defenders Ghost Queue once an attacking 12 man has been tetrised by the Match Maker.

Now, looking at the numbers by themselves, they don't tell the whole story of the queues. Just because the numbers are divisible by 12, doesn't necessarily mean that those can be put together to make full 12 player units. Just an example of this, you can make 24 with 3 8 man groups. While this is extremely edge case, there is absolutely no way for the Ghost Queue to fill a Zone Queue with those players. This is why I've been pushing House Marik groups to break up into solos or small, even numbered groups if they can't make a full 12 as it maximizes their chances to get into a drop quickly.

Having said that, there is also a vital piece of information missing in your example above. in the 36/48, I'm assuming you mean 36 attackers and 48 defenders, and IIRC, you said you were defending on that planet. I have to ask this. how many zones were occupied by the attackers? Did the Zone queue have a place to put you where you could do a turret drop while the other attackers were engaged with other defenders?

In the situation you describe, providing the Ghost Queue was able to make 3 full Zone Queues with the players in the queue, your queue shouldn't have taken more than 13 minutes (1+ minute count down, best case, for each of the previous 3 Zone Queues to get in a match + 10 minutes for the other 12 players to get a turret drop on Counter Attack IF there was a zone available) before the next Zone Queue fired off a 10 minute count down for the next zone to be Counter Attacked IF there was a zone available.

I know that there are ways to improve Queue Times being worked on, and that better planetary information would go a long way to alleviating some of the frustration (also being worked on), but I hope all of this explains what's really happening and why.

[Serpentbane]

Ok, so, I'm currently 16 minutes in the queue, 5 times I've teamed up with toher players, Pilot receiving orders, before they just vanishes and I'm alone again.

When I'm paired with other players, why don't I enter a lobby with them.

As I'm a slow writer, apparently, I'm now 20 minutes in, and still no change what so ever.

So, why should I even bother?

[Cimarb]

Serpentbane, on 12 January 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Ok, so, I'm currently 16 minutes in the queue, 5 times I've teamed up with toher players, Pilot receiving orders, before they just vanishes and I'm alone again.

When I'm paired with other players, why don't I enter a lobby with them.

As I'm a slow writer, apparently, I'm now 20 minutes in, and still no change what so ever.

So, why should I even bother?

It will help if you scroll up just a bit and read Roadbeer's excellent overview of the process. Once you understand what you are doing, it will make things go much more smoothly.

[Straythief]

Adjust the queue because so far solo players end up facing 12 mans teams.
Adjust it that those people have to wait longer to face enemies of there own
size. Its frustrating how most of my battle are vs premade of 12 people.

[Roadbeer]

Straythief, on 17 January 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

Adjust the queue because so far solo players end up facing 12 mans teams.
Adjust it that those people have to wait longer to face enemies of there own
size. Its frustrating how most of my battle are vs premade of 12 people.

PRO TIP: This is a war simulator, not supposed to be fair. Find a group please.

[S Phoenix]

Just 2 suggestions:

1. Add a Checkbox in the "PLAY NOW" dropdown button for CW. Checkbox is greyed off if the player/group is not eligible for CW.

Reasoning:
CW numbers are down. If you dont have 12 players ready to fight 12 other players on the same planet, nothing will happen.

If players/groups had the option of selecting CW in the "PLAY NOW" dropdown button, this should increase the player base for CW and allow planet queues to be filled in a more timely manner.


How it could work:
*Eligible players/groups who just want to play - doesn't matter if its CW or Skirmsh, Conquest, Assault, should be able to just click the PLAY NOW button.

If you don't want to - just uncheck the box....hit the "PLAY NOW" button as you would normally.

You can also access CW via the Faction tab per normal.


Background Logic:
If a spot is available on a planet and the player/group is *eligible to fill that spot. The player/group gets picked up in the same way as though they clicked on defend/attack for that planet in CW. (Use a simple demand/supply logic for the various queues)

*eligible - for the Solo player means:
If the player is a CJF player for instance - he/she should be able to be dropped (matchmade) on any planet that a CJF player would see on the CW overlay.**

*eligible - for Groups means:
Depending on the factions of the players in the group:
If all players in the group are of the same faction, it would work the same as a solo player above.
If all players in the group are Clan (various clans). They would only be able to defend any Clan planets
If all players in the group are IS (various IS). They would only be able to defend any IS planets
If players are mixed (Clan and IS). The checkbox is greyed out - i.e the group is not eligible for CW.
If one player in the group has not selected a faction - The checkbox is greyed out. - i.e the group is not eligible for CW.

2**. In the same way that all factions (IS or Clan) can defend all planets, Allow all factions to Attack all planets on the Clan vs IS borders.

To even out the numbers in attack queues, players should be able to attack any planet in Clan vs IS. i.e Clan Wolf should be able to assist CJF in attacking Steiner, the same way Marik can assist Steiner in attacking CJF.

The Unit tag on the planet goes to the unit that contributed the most in the attack. Borders move as they do currently.


This is what would help in my opinion after watching the numbers dwindle down over the weeks.
In conclusion, what I am saying is simple: Give the community the option to help the CW matchmaker with a bigger player base....All it takes is a checkbox....

[Joseph Mallan]

Russ Bullock, on 13 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Okay I have just a few minutes and I wanted to make a quick post about how the match making queues work in community warfare.

Quick post? I'd be timed out by the time I finished typing up something that long!

Roadbeer, on 17 January 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

PRO TIP: This is a war simulator, not supposed to be fair. Find a group please.

Even if it's not a war sim... When I play I play to win... unless you are a child, That being said, I will use every legal means to beat you and to reduce your chances of beating me. I assume you are trying to do the same. It is fair and balanced.

[StUffz]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 January 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

Even if it's not a war sim... When I play I play to win... unless you are a child, That being said, I will use every legal means to beat you and to reduce your chances of beating me. I assume you are trying to do the same. It is fair and balanced.

Easy mode is disabled in CW.

[Divine Retribution]

Does the CW MM not reform groups? I experience several games a night where, for example, we had a 7-man. Then a 4-man joins the queue, then a 2-man, then a 3-man.

The 4-man is initially placed with the 7 man, creating a group of 11.

The 3-man and 2-man join the queue but don't replace the 4-man to create a full drop. It seems like there would be an indefinite wait for a solo player to make 12.

After several minutes the 7-man cancels then rejoins the queue, and is then instantly placed with the 3-man and 2-man to create a full drop.

I think we gave the MM about 7 minutes tonight to figure out how to reorganize before we cancelled and dropped again.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 18 February 2015 - 10:35 PM.

[Cimarb]

technopredator, on 21 February 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

Do Houses and Clans actually take planets/space off the domain of other factions or it's just BS and CW is just more game modes?

I am not sure what you mean by "the domain of other factions". Can you elaborate?

[Anachronda]

Darth Futuza, on 13 December 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind not wanting to drop with a group? Anti-social?

You don't have to necessarily join a unit, a lot of units will allow guests as long as your polite and don't have a stick up your butt.

It has nothing to do with antisocial. The opposite is actually probably true. I don't get what people are saying about "solo mechwarrior" either. There is no "solo" play, you always play with a group. It's just that some people are playing with a group of people they may not know already, which until now was about the only way to even meet people to group with later. It's also pretty fun and a very social thing to do since you are willing to interact with people you don't know.

The more important aspect here is time and opportunity. As others have noted, having 11 other players only works if you can all commit to a regular time to play simultaneously. If you can't or someone doesn't show up because of real life obligations, well, you're back to PUGing anyway just like any other game.

Joining a unit isn't just a simple matter. You have to pick one after researching (where I have no idea - I've so far only found people giving unit websites in game - sometimes), then apply and be accepted. Once you are, you then have obligations to fulfill. Not everyone can do that - some people don't have time and resources to commit to that kind of thing but they still want to play the game. In the past in other games I've actually used PUGs exclusively (peppered with friends I meet along the way) instead of joining a guild/clan or in this case unit. Partly that is because of the reasons I outlined, partly because I frankly find it more fun to play with people who are a surprise, and partly it is also because of the drama and politics people end up dealing with when it would be more fun to just play the game. Maybe there is less of that here, I dunno.

It's not even a matter of bias toward 12 man groups, either. The way the algorithm is described, even if there were 100 single players they might *never* be put into a drop because the only way people in small groups or alone will ever be picked is to fill out a premade group that lacks players. And even then, that group will not get dropped if there's a 12 man, even if they come in later. It's kind of sad, too, because it also means that even if 100 people want to defend the planet, the attackers can automatically win if none of those 100 people are part of a premade group.

As for me, I am a beginning player, very much a novice. I am trying to learn but there is a steep learning curve and I haven't found a lot of information on strategy and whatnot. So what I learn is mostly by watching and listening to players who seem like they might know what they are doing. Until I can get a lot better than I am now I would probably not be welcome in a hardcore group, for good reason. I do intend to do that, but this is going to be true of anyone new, and although I expect to continue to improve I probably won't become some kind of champion tournament winning powerplayer. I don't see the problem with having two PUGs fight each other. The feature is supposed to be a matchmaker. Taking people who want to play and putting them into groups is what matchmakers are supposed to do. Having people have to create a group before they start the matchmaker basically means there is no matchmaker to speak of.

That said, all of these features are welcome. The global chat may help, although I have never seen anyone talking there. People apparently tend to use outside sources for communication, maybe because there used not to be any in-game means. They also often still use teamspeak (which you must set up and know what teamspeak group to join or whatever) instead of the in-game voip, which is kind of a side issue not really germane to this conversation. As side note, there's also the matter that you can't friend people during or after a match, even if you could possibly have time or do it during the countdown or results. I basically try and have pen and paper handy and write down the names of players I might find interesting who may or may not accept the request, and then friend them afterwards. There's no log or information about people you played with before so that seems to be the only way to do it.

Shouldn't people be able to play and learn before they try and figure out what unit they can join? There's no other way to practice shooting at moving targets, much less ones that shoot back, than joining in either CW or the regular conquest/assault/skirmish. No one is going to be good overnight - it takes time. I think an elitist attitude is more antisocial than being willing to play with anyone willing to play with you, anyway - no offense.