75 replies to this topic

[Zapier]

One of the few ways I could see that might not change the design of CW away from attackers needing to zerg, but maybe change the mentality of some players is to have consequence added in.

Obviously repair&rearm way back when was something meant to encourage you to try to stay alive and kill the enemy. That was removed and it can be argued that it's better for gameplay in regular public queues and so on. With CW and other 'faction assets' now put into the at risk category, there's actually no benefit at all to defend a planet, but there is when it comes to conquering a planet.

If some system (not saying it has to be repair&rearm) that could somehow make getting your mechs wiped in battle constantly actually matter would give people a reason to play defense, because it should lessen their risks of losing mechs in a fight. For attackers they still have the benefit of gaining territory, but then if there was some risk to how much of their mechs they lost then zerging for 1, 2 or even 3 or all 4 waves (if it takes that many) might still net a victory but at great cost.

[kapusta11]

Zapier, on 14 December 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

One of the few ways I could see that might not change the design of CW away from attackers needing to zerg, but maybe change the mentality of some players is to have consequence added in.

Obviously repair&rearm way back when was something meant to encourage you to try to stay alive and kill the enemy. That was removed and it can be argued that it's better for gameplay in regular public queues and so on. With CW and other 'faction assets' now put into the at risk category, there's actually no benefit at all to defend a planet, but there is when it comes to conquering a planet.

If some system (not saying it has to be repair&rearm) that could somehow make getting your mechs wiped in battle constantly actually matter would give people a reason to play defense, because it should lessen their risks of losing mechs in a fight. For attackers they still have the benefit of gaining territory, but then if there was some risk to how much of their mechs they lost then zerging for 1, 2 or even 3 or all 4 waves (if it takes that many) might still net a victory but at great cost.

Lol what? If anything, zerg rush is mech saving tactic, you win the game with 3 mechs completely undamaged. Anyways, what stops defending side from taking FLD/Streak mechs and mop the floor with enemy lights in seconds?

Edited by kapusta11, 14 December 2014 - 02:48 AM.

[Sandpit]

kapusta11, on 14 December 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Lol what? If anything, zerg rush is mech saving tactic, you win the game with 3 mechs completely undamaged. Anyways, what stops defending side from taking FLD/Streak mechs and mop the floor with enemy lights in seconds?

the fact that some people can't seem to grasp the simple concept that the game isn't "broken" simply because they can't counter a strategy while others repeatedly give them tips on how they do it.

[sC4r]

all you need to take care of zerg attack is a spotter

on winter map its quite easy as both entrances are really close to each other while on the hot map keep most your guys in the center and rotate according to scouts

if anything zerging from start is pretty much suicide as defending is so much easier because of turrets... and if you get nice dropships they can kill even multiple mechs at once

though i only played in premade of at least 8 people... i wouldnt want to play this without a group

[Zapier]

kapusta11, on 14 December 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Lol what? If anything, zerg rush is mech saving tactic, you win the game with 3 mechs completely undamaged. Anyways, what stops defending side from taking FLD/Streak mechs and mop the floor with enemy lights in seconds?

I guess I'm thinking a little more grand scale/campaign wise. I'm not talking about a public queue scenario. This is all about CW which revolves around primarily Units fighting to take ground for their faction. I'm not trying to remove the zerg tactic at all, but I'm trying to add scope to its usefulness.

Yes, maybe you survive with 3 mechs untouched, but if you and your teammates all lost 1 mech and the enemy lost none at all, that should matter in the grand scale of community warfare. In public queue it wouldn't matter because you're not even fighting over anything that persists after the match ends.

[FatYak]

you guys think its only lights doing the zerg rush???

Please...tell me how those IS streak 2 boats are going to stop the 12 timberwolves and storm crows that rush in an ignore everything as they go.....

[pwnface]

I can't believe how much qq there is on the forums about this. Light zerg rush is easily counterable, it is much more difficult to read and adjust tactics when the enemy team is properly defending against a light rush.

Verapamil, on 14 December 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

you guys think its only lights doing the zerg rush???

Please...tell me how those IS streak 2 boats are going to stop the 12 timberwolves and storm crows that rush in an ignore everything as they go.....

A heavy mech rush is even easier to stop then lights. If you are losing to a heavy mech rush you are simply outclassed or have terrible coordination.

[TexAce]

Karamarka, on 13 December 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Attacking is an auto-win by a group of 12 lights or a group of people who know to rush and dont even shoot mechs (lol?? nice mechwarrior game)

There is not enough DPS to shoot through the lagshield when they rush the base all at once

The Sulfurous map the distance between the gate and generator is 5 seconds.


There is only 1 strategy in the entire game for Attackers and that is just rush and ignore mechs... funny and dumb at the same time

We had a match yesterday where they tried to breach through the middle door and rush the cannon. 3 times! Always waiting to group up with 12 people and then rush us. First as a heavy-assault group, then as a light-med group and then again as a light-med group.

After the first rush I knew what they were planing and told everyone to eject and get into a strong brawler with SRMs and Pulses and then leg the **** out of them. Thankfully all listened.

We positioned ourselves really well. They moved past us, we shot off their right leg and then shot into their rear side torsos, because they weren't even bothering, since they were only focused on the gen.

With that said, we won 48-20, the gen was damaged but not critically.

Lights, especially IS lights are easy to kill if they present you their rear side torsos on a platter.

Please note: The match was 80% PUGS on both sides but both coordinated very good with each other.

Edited by TexAss, 14 December 2014 - 03:54 AM.

[kapusta11]

Verapamil, on 14 December 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

you guys think its only lights doing the zerg rush???

Please...tell me how those IS streak 2 boats are going to stop the 12 timberwolves and storm crows that rush in an ignore everything as they go.....

Again, use FLD weapons, they are good at killing both lights and heavier mechs, leg pushing enemies to stall their advancement and buy yourself more time to kill all of them, don't be afraid to die, they will die as well but they can't reinforce as fast as you do, come up with your own tactic after all.

it's not about killing enemy mechs now, it's about completing the objective.

[FatYak]

pwnface, on 14 December 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

I can't believe how much qq there is on the forums about this. Light zerg rush is easily counterable, it is much more difficult to read and adjust tactics when the enemy team is properly defending against a light rush.

A heavy mech rush is even easier to stop then lights. If you are losing to a heavy mech rush you are simply outclassed or have terrible coordination.

That old chestnut...... you havn't really got a counter argument so your accusation is basically you must suck as a player and well just ignore the problem

Had some other stuff here about clan teams being more organised and the way IS teams are formed being haphazard and split between small groups and puggers. the IS teams seem to have only 3/4 of their players who actually have a clue what to do. The clan teams are obviously more organised, and i suspect, sync dropping into the same planet to form a pseudo 12 man.

Edited by Verapamil, 14 December 2014 - 04:01 AM.

[Kraegor]

TheB33f has a video of a zerg rush with IS lights. I believe from drop to generator down is 1:59 seconds.

They did it twice. Both videos are on Youtube.

Didn't matter how well it was defended. 12 lights moving at 130+ can take it out fast.

[FatYak]

kapusta11, on 14 December 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

Again, use FLD weapons, they are good at killing both lights and heavier mechs, leg pushing enemies to stall their advancement and buy yourself more time to kill all of them, don't be afraid to die, they will die as well but they can't reinforce as fast as you do, come up with your own tactic after all.

it's not about killing enemy mechs now, it's about completing the objective.

What objective, shoot a generator regardless of the cost? This is assault on a different map but instead of a base its a generator. All the issues with pugging is still the same. A couple of clan mechs still rock and can dictate the terms of engagement, especially on Boreal Vault. They are always better than their IS counterparts, hit registration is borked...again..... and theres still no voice comms to enable the hodge podge teams that end up forming the IS teams to communicate.

IS v's IS is great, IS defending against clans can be great. IS attacking Clans is the most frustrating thing i have ever seen, Im at the point now where ill start disconnecting - its not worth it

Didnt you want more from CW than this zerg rush garbage??

I was so excited when i logged in to find CW had been released. 2 days later all i find is dissappointed... is this the best they could come up with for a beta release???

Ill add that if we had a real economy, C-bill income was drastically increased and repair re-arm implemented so there was an actual cost to suicide rushes then the zerg rush might be dealt with. I mean, it would make it high risk / low income

[FatYak]

Kraegor, on 14 December 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

TheB33f has a video of a zerg rush with IS lights. I believe from drop to generator down is 1:59 seconds.

They did it twice. Both videos are on Youtube.

Didn't matter how well it was defended. 12 lights moving at 130+ can take it out fast.

if you listen, someone says in one of those videos something to the effect of spamming jumpjets.......yup, exploiting busted mechanics is alive and well

[Blitzkrieguk]

I think people need to stop blaming either IS lights or Clan Timber Wolves/Storm Crows. It doesn't matter if you're IS or Clan, an organized team that just pushes efficiently WILL win end of. Especially on the Hotter map, it's even easier. While on the winter map it's a bit harder sure, but a solid fast committed push at 3/4 times will destroy the generator.

They need to find a way to balance this. There is the option of making the generator tougher, which is an easy thing to tweak. Or in my mind they could add more tiers to the map like fall back points for defending. So you could say have a 2-3 tier map, and when each objective is down you spawn further back, so on and so forth. Kind of thinking of City Defenses from Warhammer Online. I liked that concept.

Edited by Blitzkrieguk, 14 December 2014 - 04:40 AM.

[Mao of DC]

Verapamil, on 14 December 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

So then explain to me how blowing up a generator despite the fact you are probably still outnumbered at the end gives you control over the complex??


I just had a match, lost, we were winning 32-15 and they win because some guy in a spider gets behind the generator and blows it up. Despite them being still drastically out numbered, they take control of the base??


It might be a tactical victory, its certainly not an absolute one

Think of the attacking force as the Vanguard of the attack on the world. The big gun is a orbital defense gun the goal is to disable it so that the main body of the attacking force can make planetfall. Is it a Pyrrhic victory? Yes it is BUT attacks on a well prepared defensive position manned by an alert force usually are. It is why during the Napoleonic wars soldiers that survived going "into the breach" were given an automatic promotion and a medal.

[Darwins Dog]

I'll add my vote for giving the generator an armored shield. Artillery strikes do too much damage. The thing is that you don't need to take out the generator on the first wave. If your initial rush doesn't do the job you still have 3 more to make it work.

I'd like to see the health or armor of the generator tied to the number of remaining defenders in some way. Make it so that rushing in and ignoring the defenders is extremely ineffective, but as there are fewer defenders the generator becomes increasingly vulnerable.

[Mao of DC]

Darwins Dog, on 14 December 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

I'll add my vote for giving the generator an armored shield. Artillery strikes do too much damage.

This goes out to everyone who is complaining about arty and air strike on the generator not just the guy I quoted. (sorry for calling you out on this Darwins Dog.) Arty and airstrike do ABSOLUTELY ZERO damage to the generator, none, nadda, zip, ziltch, nothing. I know this because my unit tested it during an unopposed attack just to see if we could use them during an opposed attack. Arty and air strike DO work on the turrets and it wrecks them fairly quickly at that. Both of these points have been confirmed by my unit and other units we are aligned with.


Edited for spelling.

Edited by Mao of DC, 14 December 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[Kdogg788]

I can attest for the fact that the rush works. We won every time, some matches without losing a single mech, slamming down one side on the first rush and ignoring most enemy mechs. Auto win for sure. In an attritional battle where the defenders can fall back to turrets and have drop ship cover, defenders will win most of the time.

-k

[Serberk]

From my limited experience more than rush, pushing was working in my games. Push as fast as you can, destroy all the turrets you encounter, cripple all the enemy you meet and advance further. If the push as lost his momentum, regroup and prepare for the next push. This is nothing new, even before cw it was (and still is) a good strategy, let you scatter the enemy and pick the best target at the same time, offering too much threats to deal with. You don't have to be all lights, but surely in cw speed is an important factor when you have to edit your drop.

Can be countered, if you have enough intel you can deal enough damage to stop the push. That's why the snowy map is really much more difficult for invaders, the defenders can hit the enemies coming from both the gates nearly without moving, in sulfourus the attackers can use a lot of decoys that can cripple the defenders strategy.

[Scratx]

My only real issue with teams breaking out 12 lights in one wave is that HSR is much less reliable than usual at the moment. Good luck stopping 12 firestarters from taking out your entire team's legs from under them when you can't even land a shot on them because HSR says LOLNO.

The fun leaches out of the match in short order. :/

This issue is independent of attacker or defender, though.