45 replies to this topic

[Scoops Kerensky]

Community warfare currently has a problem in one specific instance, specifically where IS is on offense vs. clan mechs on defense.

Clan mechs have longer range than IS mechs with weapons, and if set in defense they have little reason to move close to engage IS attackers when they can rely on defense hardpoints and good sniper positions from the start. This leaves IS attackers with the option of either trying suicide wave tactics and hoping that they can pull off a feint, or praying that they run up against a disorganized clan team willing to close range with them.

I don't claim to speak for PGI, but I can't honestly believe that 'attackers can not realistically beat defenders by fighting' to have been one of the design goals for CW and, as we're in beta, things are subject to change.

Until now these issues have been smoothed over by regular skirmishes containing mixtures of clan and IS mechs on both sides, but we're seeing ugly balance issues rise up again by splitting the classes once more after the quirkening evened things out.

My proposal is that, while it isn't entirely consistent or friendly with the lore (though the IS did steal and start using clan mechs) that we allow all factions to use whatever mechs they like, IS or Clan alike. Gameplay balance should be a priority over respecting the lore, and I believe returning us (for now at least) to teams of mixed IS and clan mechs on both sides could alleviate some of the frustration I'm sure both sides are feeling under certain circumstances, not to mention folks who might have used mechs from both sides suddenly finding themselves unable to use one group or the other if they want to participate in CW.

tl;dr let's focus on making the gameplay balanced and fun for everyone right now, and worry about smoothing over the finer details of the lore once we have a system most of us can feel content with.

[MrZakalwe]

I can't help thinking that's not balancing the game but sidestepping the need to balance it (which is not quite the same thing).

[Sandpit]

no
drop pub queue
that is all

[Kilo 40]

if clans can use IS mechs, and IS can use clan mechs, what's the point of having the IS or clans?

[ApolloKaras]

MrZakalwe, on 14 December 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

I can't help thinking that's not balancing the game but sidestepping the need to balance it (which is not quite the same thing).

I think I would agree. However the most effective tactic is the 'zerg rush', so you can cut down that range pretty quick.

[Scoops Kerensky]

I agree its not balancing the game in depth like it should be, but its a 'quick fix' that they could implement quickly as a band-aid while they do a more comprehensive re-balancing.

[Spheroid]

A far more appealing option would be to simply drop the max tonnage limit for Clans on defense. I suggest 180-200 tons.

[Scoops Kerensky]

Kilo 40, on 14 December 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:

if clans can use IS mechs, and IS can use clan mechs, what's the point of having the IS or clans?

Well, you've got your insignia, your map colors, all the same lore can still apply. If we were still being accurate then clans would stomp all over the initial invasion with no real resistance and we wouldn't be committing 10+ stars and 14+ lances to fight over every individual world, let alone have them all fight without any real air, naval, or ground support as auxilliary forces but somehow we've managed. I don't think this would be beyond the pale after all that's already been accepted

[Sandpit]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:

This leaves IS attackers with the option of either trying suicide wave tactics and hoping that they can pull off a feint, or praying that they run up against a disorganized clan team willing to close range with them.

or
use a pincer movement
or
use light scouts to flank on the other gate
or
close range to their effective range after opening the gate
or
rushing the base generator


Point being it takes strategy and teamwork. Clans are not "op" and that's not a reason for mixed tech. CW is specifically built for the "RP and lore" aspect and is meant to be "hard". The pub queue allows for that game play style already, there is absolutely no reason to request it for CW. There just isn't. If you want to play in mixed tech matches, drop pub queue.

[Kilo 40]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

Well, you've got your insignia, your map colors, all the same lore can still apply.

and all of that means nothing in game. You may as well make it so each faction gets a special mech hat for all that it matters.

[keith]

if anything, lower clan drop weight. take away that 3 ryo 1 mad cat config. or do the opsite and rise is tonage

[Scoops Kerensky]

Sandpit, on 14 December 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

or
use a pincer movement
or
use light scouts to flank on the other gate
or
close range to their effective range after opening the gate
or
rushing the base generator


Point being it takes strategy and teamwork. Clans are not "op" and that's not a reason for mixed tech. CW is specifically built for the "RP and lore" aspect and is meant to be "hard". The pub queue allows for that game play style already, there is absolutely no reason to request it for CW. There just isn't. If you want to play in mixed tech matches, drop pub queue.

I didn't say they were OP, I said they have an advantage at range that's accentuated by the defense playstyle. Also if you decide that the big new feature of your game is something only people who play 12 man premades and use voice comms are allowed to play you're setting yourself up for a failed model with only a tiny elite clique playing. This is a f2p and the majority of players are the #1 concern, not the minority of elites.

And no, you can't 'pincer' people on the snow map, both entrances come from the same direction there. All other tactics you've described are just as easily neutered by proper communication on the defenders side. I agree that defenders need the advantage, but at the same time it needs to be viable for attackers to win by killing the defenders rather than just destroying the cannon, and the current meta is decidedly saying you need to do the latter and use your waves in suicide charges to achieve it.

Kilo 40, on 14 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

and all of that means nothing in game. You may as well make it so each faction gets a special mech hat for all that it matters.

They've been a special icon for nearly 3 years and that doesn't seem to have dampened anyone's enthusiasm for their chosen group.

[Wolfgang2685]

What if I told you I felt my IS mechs were more useful as opposed to the largely homogenized Clan mech setups i've seen in CW?

If clan range really bothers you that bad, perhaps you should consider IS ERLlas or ERppc.

I personally find heat easier to manage on IS mechs than any clan mech, and I have learned to shoot ears off timberwolves prettymuch constantly now. I feel balance is fine right now, prefer IS vs Clan, and i've changed my mech setups to suit CW accordingly, instead of using lolpubgamemodebrawlersetups all day.

Edited by Wolfgang2685, 14 December 2014 - 02:36 AM.

[Sandpit]

keith, on 14 December 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

if anything, lower clan drop weight. take away that 3 ryo 1 mad cat config. or do the opsite and rise is tonage

why?
you can't fight off timberwolves and ryos?

I can.

You do also realize that Russ has stated (before CW dropped mind you, weeks ago) that drop deck weights will vary right?

[Scoops Kerensky]

Clan ppcs and lasers outrange is variants. All things equal, an all clan versus an all IS team the clanners have a marked advantage at range and will be more likely to win those fights. I don't think that should be changed, IS and clan tech should be different and play differently. I'm saying the current map design and forced roles have brought out an old balance issue from when clan mechs were first introduced that quirks mostly fixed that are being brought back out into the open again.

[Sandpit]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

This is a f2p and the majority of players are the #1 concern, not the minority of elites.

yea ok

show me where I'm "elite"

I drop pub
I drop solo
I drop group
I drop 12man

Ever stop to think that maybe you're in the minority? Just because you drop a certain way most times doesn't mean you represent any majority.

If you want mixed tech. Drop pub queue.
Problem solved
See how easy that was?

[Kilo 40]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

They've been a special icon for nearly 3 years and that doesn't seem to have dampened anyone's enthusiasm for their chosen group.

I didn't say special icons dampen enthusiasm for their chosen group.

[Sandpit]

Socop, on 14 December 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

Clan ppcs and lasers outrange is variants. All things equal, an all clan versus an all IS team the clanners have a marked advantage at range and will be more likely to win those fights. I don't think that should be changed, IS and clan tech should be different and play differently. I'm saying the current map design and forced roles have brought out an old balance issue from when clan mechs were first introduced that quirks mostly fixed that are being brought back out into the open again.

except it's not an imbalance. If what you said were true, then clans would never lose a defense, or at the VERY least lose extremely rarely. That's not happening. So your assertion that it's the "norm" isn't backed up by the map. That's what I'm saying.

[ztac]

Kind of defeats the point of CW does it not? CW was always going to place constraints on players based on the faction they represented.

[Kenyon Burguess]

With the is perks range differences have been narrowed for quite a few mechs. Read the perks closely and experiment