99 replies to this topic

[ContingencyPlan]

Y2kHippy, on 15 December 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

I have been able to run a old Kintaro 18 streaker as my first drop when defending and it is cleaning up the Zerg with good com's and team work of heavys. The rush does not always work, and does not always come in the first wave. I have seen the light rush come in the second, third and last waves.

I've seen the light rush come in the first wave and drop the generator to 50-75% before it is stopped. Then the second wave of more lights comes to finish the job. I haven't yet seen the second wave fail, but I can imagine they probably have a third ready to go.

[Weztside]

Big Tin Man, on 14 December 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

Change the win condition for attackers to:

Destroy the generator
Destroy half of the enemy mech force

Simple solution. Easy to implement. It fixes the sucide squad solution as it leaves the attacker at a disadvantage by wasting 25 percent of their mechs to take the generator.

And makes sense as destroying a giant cannon while leaving 48 mechs untouched isn't really a way to walk into a planet without... problems.

And most importantly, it forces us to do the thing that makes this fun, blowing up the other guy's mechs.

And in doing so you shift yet another advantage over to the defenders that already have almost every single advantage possible stacked in favor of their side. Do you want to make it so that the attackers can never win so you can essentially drop into a turkey shoot every time you play? The suicide charge is an effective tactic that was born out of desperation. It's used by players that are tired of throwing themselves into the guns of defenders over and over again only to lose every time. Attackers have finally found a way to win and now people want it to be nerfed. Unbelievable.

Edited by Weztside, 15 December 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Brody319, on 14 December 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

Or, Triple generator health. Allow attackers to hit the main gun itself for 30% damage. Have shooting the generator deal full damage. Add 2 more turrets with 2 PPCs zerg rush is dead.

And thus kill all chance of the PUGS even if well coordonate against a 12 group man.
You are not solving the problem here, you are creating even more.

[Serg]

Sorry for my english..

In my opinion, the main problem that the destruction of the generator means victory. You can do this a necessary condition, but not sufficient. The main condition is the destruction of the enemy team.

But the destruction of the cannon could provide any benefits. For example newcomer defender`s mechs would have some damage. Or may be something else..

[Mangonel TwoSix]

KuroNyra, on 15 December 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

And thus kill all chance of the PUGS even if well coordonate against a 12 group man.
You are not solving the problem here, you are creating even more.

One of the reasons the zerg rush was developed is because attacking "conventionally" was so difficult. Obviously if win conditions were added for the attackers (such as adding in additional primary objectives like a command post, additional generators, a drop ship control tower ect.) you would have to balance that out.

Maybe something like adding a Drop Ship Control tower, and when destroyed is slows down the spawn time for defending mechs. Lets face it, the main reason why attacking is hard is logistics. When the Attacker dies they have to cover several km of ground to get back into the action. The defender just runs out a couple hundred meters (or less) and is back in action. So if you are attacking the enemy base, and kill a wave of defenders, your just spawning another wave right BEHIND you while you try to kill the generator.

[ContingencyPlan]

Weztside, on 15 December 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

And in doing so you shift yet another advantage over to the defenders that already have almost every single advantage possible stacked in favor of their side. Do you want to make it so that the attackers can never win so you can essentially drop into a turkey shoot every time you play? The suicide charge is an effective tactic that was born out of desperation. It's used by players that are tired of throwing themselves into the guns of defenders over and over again only to lose every time. Attackers have finally found a way to win and now people want it to be nerfed. Unbelievable.

I'm all for nerfing the other things that give defenders such a huge advantage as long as something is done to force an engagement. Winning by completely bypassing the actual gameplay kind of makes it feel like there's no point in logging in. Regardless of whether I'm on the receiving side or the giving side, all I feel like is that I just watched a 5 minute youtube video. No actual gameplay happened. It is supposed to be about combat after all. Winning by bypassing the actual gameplay should not be an option, EVER.

[Mawai]

Menetius, on 14 December 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

That, in a nutshell, is the fundamental problem with Invasion at the moment.

My suggestion? Turn the defense turrets closest to the orbital cannon into AC/20's or SRM6 arrays with Artemis, backed by Pulse Laser/MG sub-weapons for critical damage on unarmored attackers. Hell, you could even give the turrets streaks with BAP, to avoid light mech rushes. Just program them to only fire within their weapons' optimal ranges.

Though if that was done, the turrets would have to be placed in more exposed areas, and the defenders would be tasked with protecting said turrets to help avoid the rushes I've seen.

I know this idea isn't air-tight, but I just emerged from a game that only lasted ten minutes; my team (attackers) won in less than ten minutes because our second wave was full of assaults and heavies, and the defenders were all similarly weighted, from what I saw. Something needs to be done.

I'm curious. I have seen various anecdotes regarding win/loss. There are several threads on here claiming that the attackers are at a significant disadvantage ... that the turrets and drop ship are too strong ... but in this thread there are several suggestions to INCREASE the strength of defensive weaponry.

My personal experience is somewhat limited. In two matches with clan attacking vs IS defending on the 3 gate map ... one clan win, one loss, both cases the tactic was to rush the generator in the end ... it was better executed in the first case and properly executed on that map I can see it being hard to stop (even in the loss the generator was down about half).

I played one IS attack vs clan defense on the 2 gate map. IS lost ... not sure how they can win that particular combination ... Omega is so far back and the clan drop point is next to the generator.

Anyway, I am hoping that PGI sees fit to share some numbers ... there should have been enough CW matches over the last 4 days to offer some insights into both the map balance, the clan vs IS balance, and the PUG vs 12 man balance.

However, with folks asking for both nerfs and buffs to defenders, I would like to see actual numbers.

(Given the current balance ... the base rush seems to be about one of the few tactics that actually leads to a win ... I'm not sure that making it harder is a great idea).

[totgeboren]

I really, really don't think the way to fix zerg rush is to just make it much harder to do the rush. Right now it's the only option available for IS attackers, though it doesn't have to be done on the first drop. You can rush with fast mechs on the second drop instead, but while all these nerfs using moats or even more turrets would kill the zerg rush, it would also mean that IS attackers can't win.

If you kill the tactic of rushing with fast mechs, you need to open up some other means of winning. Killing the enemy team is more or less impossible because of time constraints, not to mention distance from spawn and defences, so how to win?

My suggestion would be to perhaps limit the defenders to 3 drops. So they only have 36 mechs against the attackers 48. That way you could in theory win by attrition instead of being forced to rush.

[Serg]

totgeboren, on 15 December 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

I really, really don't think the way to fix zerg rush is to just make it much harder to do the rush. Right now it's the only option available for IS attackers, though it doesn't have to be done on the first drop. You can rush with fast mechs on the second drop instead, but while all these nerfs using moats or even more turrets would kill the zerg rush, it would also mean that IS attackers can't win.

If you kill the tactic of rushing with fast mechs, you need to open up some other means of winning. Killing the enemy team is more or less impossible because of time constraints, not to mention distance from spawn and defences, so how to win?

My suggestion would be to perhaps limit the defenders to 3 drops. So they only have 36 mechs against the attackers 48. That way you could in theory win by attrition instead of being forced to rush.

This is what I told about. May be defenders would lost one drop if the cannon destroyed. So it will be good for attackers to destroy that.

[AlmightyAeng]

The first time we saw a zerg rush, we lost. After that we changed our positioning to prep for the possibility, and started aiming for more legs. We still lost to one more rush, but we also beat back 3 and won as defenders.

I could see the cannon having slightly more health...but right now it feels balanced to me. A lot of matches have had an "edge of your seat" "by the skin of your teeth" feeling. We've waltzed through a couple teams to the generator that weren't organized...and then farmed damage for a couple waves before pushing through to win...and we've had some teams put up a helluva fight.

So far we win nearly all of our attacks...and defend about 3/4 of our matches successfully.

[ContingencyPlan]

Ghost Badger, on 15 December 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

The first time we saw a zerg rush, we lost. After that we changed our positioning to prep for the possibility, and started aiming for more legs. We still lost to one more rush, but we also beat back 3 and won as defenders.

I could see the cannon having slightly more health...but right now it feels balanced to me. A lot of matches have had an "edge of your seat" "by the skin of your teeth" feeling. We've waltzed through a couple teams to the generator that weren't organized...and then farmed damage for a couple waves before pushing through to win...and we've had some teams put up a helluva fight.

So far we win nearly all of our attacks...and defend about 3/4 of our matches successfully.

With hitreg being what it is, "aiming for the legs" doesn't quite cut it most of the time. "Aiming" for anything doesn't when it comes to 150km/s light mechs in CW. In a brawl I have smacked one straight in the back with an AC/20 at close rangeand gotten nothing. Additionally, assuming its Jenners + Firestarters + Jenners, they CAN be up on the platform before your team has had a chance to form up/mobilize. And they CAN drop it down to below 50% before you've completely cleaned them up. And they CAN follow that up with another wave of the same.

[Tarl Cabot]

Kmieciu, on 15 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

On a related note: there should be numerous elevated positions for the defenders behind the gates, to encourage fighting over the gates. Right now, the gates are so easy to open there is truly no incentive to defend them at all.
Why would you want to defend them, when you've got 4+ turrets at omega and if you die a dropship will come and shoot the attackers?

This. What combat engineer in his right mind would leave elevated positions against a fortified position that would allow an attacker the advantage of destroying a critical piece of equipment or simply making a small jump over that wall?

If anything, at the Frozen map the gates should be moved forward, or remove most of the ramp on both sides.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 December 2014 - 08:12 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

As for the blitzs. I saw a few where they blitzed the generator, took it down to around 50% and held their ground til destroyed. They repeated that process and make it appear that they wanted to make it a 3rd time but someone in their unit continued firing on the generator, as there were 3 comments made almost at the same time, who continue firing at it/gen/etc.

It appeared as if they want to ensure as many got their 80pts as possible before putting the defenders out of their misery. And then, even with directions, we had half the defenders playing with the assaults at the other gate.../sad day indeed.

[AlmightyAeng]

ContingencyPlan, on 15 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

With hitreg being what it is, "aiming for the legs" doesn't quite cut it most of the time. "Aiming" for anything doesn't when it comes to 150km/s light mechs in CW. In a brawl I have smacked one straight in the back with an AC/20 at close rangeand gotten nothing. Additionally, assuming its Jenners + Firestarters + Jenners, they CAN be up on the platform before your team has had a chance to form up/mobilize. And they CAN drop it down to below 50% before you've completely cleaned them up. And they CAN follow that up with another wave of the same.

Yes, they CAN. Your team can also position so as to not be so easy to blow past up to the base. We've HAD teams try this with us. Sometimes they succeed. Other times we stop them dead.

I'm sorry you're experiencing bad hitreg. I'm not.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 15 December 2014 - 08:25 AM.

[Airox]

Overall, the two maps are enjoyable, but I think the best way to prevent zerg rushes in the future would be varied map designs. Imagine a third map with multiple layers of gates in an underground facility (ie no jumping over). These gates are guarded by turrets and spots for defenders to shoot through. Now on this map zerg rushes don't work. They have to adjust their dropship not knowing what map they will get.

They could still zerg rush for a wave, maybe 2. That can be stopped. This would add variation to the game and force teams to consider other strategies as well.

[Big Tin Man]

So... this has strayed a bit. Can someone tell me exactly WHY they don't like the idea of adding a requirement that the attackers must drop 50% of enemy mech force as well as killing the generator?

Every single other idea here has had a list of gameplay balance negatives associated with it, or would be too complex for PGI to realistically implement with any speed (i.e. multiple generators, DS control towers, etc. I do like those ideas, but I'm realistic that they would be 3 months out).

ContingencyPlan, on 15 December 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

With hitreg being what it is, "aiming for the legs" doesn't quite cut it most of the time. "Aiming" for anything doesn't when it comes to 150km/s light mechs in CW. In a brawl I have smacked one straight in the back with an AC/20 at close rangeand gotten nothing. Additionally, assuming its Jenners + Firestarters + Jenners, they CAN be up on the platform before your team has had a chance to form up/mobilize. And they CAN drop it down to below 50% before you've completely cleaned them up. And they CAN follow that up with THREE MORE wave of the same.

Fixed it for you. My dropship can carry 4 Firestarters, and can change from a defensive deck to an offensive deck in the 1 minute window before launch.

[Menetius]

The problem isn't just the zerg rush; in Lefty Lucy's words again (paraphrased), any half-decent composition of mechs that decides to bum-rush the generator will succeed in destroying the cannon by the third wave, at latest. And this is the only viable strategy for the offense, at the moment.

The game-mode needs more depth. Depth that my previous recommendation probably didn't provide, since the defense would probably just rally around the 270m-range super-turrets for paranoia of bum-rushes.

I've also noticed that attacking teams with at least one or two dedicated LRM battlemechs have a much better time in pushes of attrition, as opposed to bum-rushes. Their mobile artillery just sits by the open gates and rains hell on defenders.

Edited by Menetius, 15 December 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Killstorm999999]

Suppose the attackers need to amass a certain about of 'invasion points'?

Lets say they need to get 100 points before 30 minutes is up. Points can be earned like this (just an example!):

+50 for destroying the generator
+3 for destroying a defending mech
+2 for destroying a turret
-1 for ejecting
-2 for being destroyed

Additional objectives and conditions could also be added.

The beauty of this system is that is gives the attackers options. They could ignore the gun and go for wiping out other base assets. If you combine this system with a large map with multiple high point objectives spread out, you can get a really dynamic strategic battle going on.

Edited by Deltron Zero, 15 December 2014 - 10:22 AM.

[Zoid]

I really don't think anything needs to be fixed other than people just getting used to the way CW works. This is how metagames develop, someone comes up with a tactic that seems too powerful and then it gets countered.

I haven't run into it personally, but every video I've seen would have had it end very badly for the attackers if 2-3 'mechs had stayed near the ramps instead of running right up to the gates.

Give it some time to see if knowing it may be coming makes it easier to stop.

[Chagatay]

eh, like I said on another thread put in a slow autorepair function when not in combat/not taking damage for X secs. Still can Zerg rush but you need to do it in one go. Makes it still a legimate tactic but you take great risk in trying it.