176 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Satan n stuff, on 17 December 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

"Much more mobile"? His build is not nearly fast enough to probably avoid what would kill mine, and it's nowhere near fast enough to outmaneuver any assault pilot with their head on straight.
Sure it does twist better, but it also doesn't have a giant missile launcher to put between his AC and the enemy. Seriously the thing is nearly as big as the AC, so I'll gladly take it if it means I can hurt my targets more with every shot and keep my AC/20 longer. I pretty much never lose the right torso first with this build, and I´m pretty much guaranteed to go zombie before I go down.

If a build works against the kind of people I usually play against then yes it's a good build, regardless of whether or not it offends your fast medium sensibilities.

The speed isn't there to dodge shots, it's to be able to roll away from a push, or pursue a target that's isolated or overextended and finish it before it escapes.

Your play style has you playing close fire support behind Assaults and Heavies, which is fine, but then why not do it with another Assault or Heavy, besides the artificial restriction of 3/3/3/3?

Bishop probably leads to make contact with the enemy in his Hunchback, and in that position you need to have the speed to roll away if the enemy pushes into you. Otherwise you'll be eating focus fire from a line of heavies and assaults as they swing around.

[Satan n stuff]

YueFei, on 17 December 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

The speed isn't there to dodge shots, it's to be able to roll away from a push, or pursue a target that's isolated or overextended and finish it before it escapes.

Your play style has you playing close fire support behind Assaults and Heavies, which is fine, but then why not do it with another Assault or Heavy, besides the artificial restriction of 3/3/3/3?

Bishop probably leads to make contact with the enemy in his Hunchback, and in that position you need to have the speed to roll away if the enemy pushes into you. Otherwise you'll be eating focus fire from a line of heavies and assaults as they swing around.

When nearly every mech over 60 tons being played currently can keep pace with a 250 engine hunchie, the speed is irrelevant. You'd get away from a Dire, or a fast Atlas, maybe a Warhawk or Awesome, but a Timberwolf? Stormcrow? Jagermech? Thunderbolt? Gargoyle? Not a chance.
If you want to make contact without having enough backup to survive a push you're going to need to be a lot faster than that. And if you do have enough backup you only need to be as fast as most of them.

[Telmasa]

superteds, on 17 December 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

because dual gauss puts 30 damage onto one section, and one gauss doesn't?

it's really not OP

that's like 'why take 4xac5 (anything) when you can take a wolverine...

1. It doesn't always pinpoint your shots
2. That's at least 15 tons you can put into literally anything you can think of. You seriously think having a for-free 15-ton advantage isn't OP?

DarthPeanut, on 17 December 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

I have to wonder if the people arguing against the quirks... ACTUALLY have one and tried it?

The rate of fire is pretty good but it is just as I said in my original post.

The idea that ANY dual gauss mech can be replaced with a GI is ridiculous. Even the squishy dual gauss jager will take out a GI in a 1v1. They can peek once to put 30 points on your ct or side torso with one shot. You have to peek repeatedly in your GI to do the same. You DOUBLE your exposure with a GI to equal what they can do with one exposure and they put it pinpoint on a location.

I have tried a couple of the mechs with quirks adding up to more than 25%, and it's sickening just how easy-mode these mechs become with a quirked weapon. It's no contest. It amounts to having the same firepower for HALF THE TONNAGE, which I can then throw into engines (speed), more armor, and heatsinks/ammo/electronics, that otherwise I would have absolutely no chance of mounting and still having any firepower left over.


Not to mention, there are very few mechs with a more ideal location for a gauss than the GI. Shadowhawk might be the ONLY mech that has a better location for the gauss; even the jager has to expose quite a bit of its head in order to get those arms up.



If the numbers were kept at or below 25% total (without modules), I think it would achieve the purpose without becoming so ridiculous.

Edited by Telmasa, 18 December 2014 - 01:00 AM.

[YueFei]

Satan n stuff, on 18 December 2014 - 12:43 AM, said:

When nearly every mech over 60 tons being played currently can keep pace with a 250 engine hunchie, the speed is irrelevant. You'd get away from a Dire, or a fast Atlas, maybe a Warhawk or Awesome, but a Timberwolf? Stormcrow? Jagermech? Thunderbolt? Gargoyle? Not a chance.
If you want to make contact without having enough backup to survive a push you're going to need to be a lot faster than that. And if you do have enough backup you only need to be as fast as most of them.

It's not a game of 1v1. Think in terms of geometry. I don't need to outrun a heavy (though I can outrun most heavies if I want to at 98 kph). I need to move fast enough so his other buddies rounding the corner can't get good angles on me or maintain good angles. By the nature of a firing line requiring more space, enemies on the edge of a firing line must travel a longer distance, a larger arc. Those I can get away from, to avoid focus fire, even if they all have the same speed. I have a smaller arc to travel since I'm hugging cover as I roll away.

Also, don't forget that with the Hunchback's amazing torso twist range, you *can* be running away at full speed while firing behind you.

That's not something that most Heavies and Assaults can do. They get pushed on, and called out as a focus target, and they're probably going to die unless the enemy team has lousy aim.

If enemies pursue hard, they'll risk stringing themselves out. Their man on the leading edge can keep chasing, he might even get angles to hit you, but his buddies won't have angles, and he risks over-extending into your team's guns. In Chinese books on war strategy, they call that "reversing the roles of host and guest".

Yes, sometimes I make a mistake, don't read the situation properly, and I don't roll away from the push soon enough. Then again, even Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers occasionally misread the coverage or fail to see the blitz coming. That doesn't mean it's impossible to beat a blitz. They don't have to be faster than the speediest men on the team, they just need to be fast enough to shift around in the pocket to give their own Linemen the angles they need to apply proper leverage on the pass rushers. Many of the best quarterbacks don't need to make HUGE movements, it's nimble subtle footwork, shifts of 1 or 2 yards to the side or up or back, and good timing that does the trick.

Edited by YueFei, 18 December 2014 - 01:07 AM.

[Michael Abt]

Satan n stuff, on 18 December 2014 - 12:43 AM, said:

When nearly every mech over 60 tons being played currently can keep pace with a 250 engine hunchie, the speed is irrelevant. You'd get away from a Dire, or a fast Atlas, maybe a Warhawk or Awesome, but a Timberwolf? Stormcrow? Jagermech? Thunderbolt? Gargoyle? Not a chance.
If you want to make contact without having enough backup to survive a push you're going to need to be a lot faster than that. And if you do have enough backup you only need to be as fast as most of them.

Yes, on paper speed is irrelevant because heavies are almost the same speed. Theorycrafting at its best.

Take the typical situation in PuG world for example. Your team is standing at a choke point, too afraid to push. Often i am crazy enough to announce in team chat that i am going in, hoping some will follow. I am going in at full speed while the enemy is... static. The typical reaction is that they are remaining static and just turning around in spot in order to shoot me. By the time they decide to follow me i already made some ground. Even when they decide to follow me i gain some ground in the beginning because they are not from zero to top speed in a millisecond.

Despite the fact that PuG teams usually do not follow such a charge i often make it out alive in such situations, not in one piece, but alive. Speed matters.

Edit: YueFei's explanation is a lot better than mine.

Edited by Michael Abt, 18 December 2014 - 01:10 AM.

[Bleary]

Biggest advantage I find is agility, not flat top speed. There's a sweet spot where poking corners feels smooth and I seem to duck back in time to evade most return fire. There's a spot where I know I'm fast enough to outmaneuver an assault's firing arcs in a close brawl. The couple of extra tons of weapons I can carry have a very hard time justifying taking a sub 250 engine. Especially when so much of my firepower is tied up in the quirked gun anyway.

Edited by Bleary, 18 December 2014 - 02:51 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Satan n stuff, on 18 December 2014 - 12:43 AM, said:

When nearly every mech over 60 tons being played currently can keep pace with a 250 engine hunchie, the speed is irrelevant. You'd get away from a Dire, or a fast Atlas, maybe a Warhawk or Awesome, but a Timberwolf? Stormcrow? Jagermech? Thunderbolt? Gargoyle? Not a chance.
If you want to make contact without having enough backup to survive a push you're going to need to be a lot faster than that. And if you do have enough backup you only need to be as fast as most of them.

That is true, but a Hunchback does have a much smaller profile than Heavies and almost all other Mediums. The Hunchback in relation to other mechs in its class, is downright tiny. That makes a difference IMO.

[Wolfwood592]

Not sure how to take someone calling for a nerf on a Hunchie......

I target them first, why? Because I don't like being hit with 9xmls, an ac20, or a gauss rifle.

Once the shoulder is disabled they are useless...they need all the help they can get.

[ACH75]

GI is nothing more than a formidable GAUSS training platform...

[DarthPeanut]

Telmasa, on 18 December 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

I have tried a couple of the mechs with quirks adding up to more than 25%, and it's sickening just how easy-mode these mechs become with a quirked weapon.

So the answer to my question 'if people against the quirks actually have a GI and ran one'... is NO.

When you get one and run it in a few drops to see how it ACTUALLY performs in game your opinion might change. It is hardly conquering the battlefield against any competent enemy.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 18 December 2014 - 08:28 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Telmasa, on 18 December 2014 - 12:59 AM, said:

I have tried a couple of the mechs with quirks adding up to more than 25%, and it's sickening just how easy-mode these mechs become with a quirked weapon. It's no contest.

Lolz. Try playing outside the underhive then.

Go ask any semi competitive clan, especially Clan one, just how much they crap their drawers when they see a Grid Iron. Because they don't.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Lolz. Try playing outside the underhive then.

Go ask any semi competitive clan, especially Clan one, just how much they crap their drawers when they see a Grid Iron. Because they don't.

A 4G with radar dep in close quarters on the other hand....

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 18 December 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

A 4G with radar dep in close quarters on the other hand....

Hey. Next time don't let me close!!!!

I'm still a Medium MEch with Medium Mech armor moving at Assault Mech speed, lol!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 December 2014 - 09:37 AM.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Hey. Next time don't let me close!!!!

I'm still a Medium MEch with Medium Mech armor moving at Assault Mech speed, lol!

Doesn't help when I come around a corner in River City, and be face to face with a 4G with it's AC-chain gun of doom AC20.... And I'm in a Hellbringer...

[Satan n stuff]

Metus regem, on 18 December 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

A 4G with radar dep in close quarters on the other hand....

... performs exactly the same as a GI, we've been over this already, the quirks add up to exactly the same AC/20 cooldown.

[Metus regem]

Satan n stuff, on 18 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

... performs exactly the same as a GI, we've been over this already, the quirks add up to exactly the same AC/20 cooldown.

I find the GI easier to kill though, I find less screen shake from the gauss than the AC20.

Edit:

Not to mention when the Gauss explodes it does damage to the GI, when the AC20 goes boom, it just loses the biggest tooth the 4G had.

Edited by Metus regem, 18 December 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Metus regem, on 18 December 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

I find the GI easier to kill though, I find less screen shake from the gauss than the AC20.

I meant it's the same as the AC/20 when used on the GI. GI has +25% ballistics cooldown speed, 4G has +12.5% ballistics and +12.5% AC/20 cooldown speed.

[Metus regem]

Satan n stuff, on 18 December 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

I meant it's the same as the AC/20 when used on the GI. GI has +25% ballistics cooldown speed, 4G has +12.5% ballistics and +12.5% AC/20 cooldown speed.

That's nice, and I am just saying as a Clan pilot I would rather fight a GI over a 4G in close quarters.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 18 December 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

That's nice, and I am just saying as a Clan pilot I would rather fight a GI over a 4G in close quarters.

Heck, maybe it's just psychological, but can't really fear a emch in a football jersey.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Heck, maybe it's just psychological, but can't really fear a emch in a football jersey.

That does help, but the AC 20 does hit harder than the Gauss, so the TTK with a 4G is shorter than a Gauss, not just psychological....