108 replies to this topic

[Noaceik]

I stand curected as you see I psted this before the end of the cycle on the 23rd. The ceasefire took place basically at the start of the 24th. So what I said was not a full lie for you did hit every border the day before the ceasefire. Still having the ceasefire start at 11:30pm on the 23rd, how can you not expect miss information. At that time, it was basically the 24th for it is only a half hour off.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

Plus, Victor S-D never accomplished anything.

1. He stopped the clan invasion.

2. He stopped his sister.

Most people don't have accomplishments that impressive.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Alexander Steel, on 03 January 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

1. He stopped the clan invasion.

2. He stopped his sister.

Most people don't have accomplishments that impressive.

1. Bwhaha. Whatever you say pal. That's some North Korea level leader worship right there

2. He stopped her after his incompetence even allowed her to get that far. At best a wash.

[Alexander Steel]

No, basically battle tech lore credits VSD as stopping the clans by being the leader during the great trial of refusal. Were other people there? Yup. Did they play big parts? Of course. Is he by lore given credit for doing so? Absolutely.

In much the same way as Alexander Kerensky got the credit for ending the Amaris revolt.

[Thorn Hallis]

Stackpole and Coleman gave him the credit. The actual lore (=sourcebooks) not so much.

[BlakeAteIt]

Alexander Steel, on 03 January 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

No, basically battle tech lore credits VSD as stopping the clans by being the leader during the great trial of refusal. Were other people there? Yup. Did they play big parts? Of course. Is he by lore given credit for doing so? Absolutely.

In much the same way as Alexander Kerensky got the credit for ending the Amaris revolt.

LOL like ComStar didn't carry hard on that. You want to thank one person for stopping the Clans? Thank Focht. Want to thank one group? Thank ComStar. They were on board with the clans until they found out they wanted Terra (LOL Waterly), then did everything they could to defeat them. And won. Space AT&T FTW.

Focht proposed the battle.
Focht made the bargain.
The ComGuards did the fighting.
Focht commanded them.
The ComGuards won.

VSD did the whole operation: bulldog thing afterwards, which I will agree worked out. He did lose TWO space kingdoms doing it, though, and left them in the hands of Katie, which... was suboptimal for everyone.

I don't remember where VSD was during that battle, but he was probably getting bailed out by Kai, whatever it was.

Source: Sarna

[Alexander Steel]

You seem to be mistaking Tukayid and the Trial of Refusal. Two different battles.

The first prevented the clans from advancing towards Terra for 15 years, the second ended the clan invasion forever.

[BlakeAteIt]

Oh, the Great Refusal. Right. Well, I rolled that all into the O:Bulldog thing. Credit where it's due. He gets a gold star for that.

[InspectorG]

Faith McCarron, on 26 December 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

Generally speaking, Davion are the space-good guys, the western values type that most North American players are going to exhibit a bias towards. Especially in the early days of the novels, Davion was portrayed as the good guys, hands down. If you read the Warrior Trilogy, it's full of proselytizing about how great Hanse Davion and the Fed Suns are because they stand by their people and encourage camaraderie, loyalty, and honor. Liao is painted as devious bumbling idiots, Kurita is painted as rigid and bloodthirsty, Marik is hardly mentioned at all, and Steiner serves as the people to whom the lesson of Davion greatness and justice is being taught. As a result, a majority of people flock to the Davion side when playing the game.

Kurita's popularity is easily explained by the Anime/Karate fanboy crowd, there is a significant niche crowd that has some oddly idealized version of Japan. These are the ones who watch all kinds of anime, took Japanese in high school, study martial arts, and bought a Japanese sword set from the Home Shopping Channel to mount on their wall. They pretend to like sushi, and are often Nintendo fanboys as well.

Then when the clans came along, they drew in the power gamers, the ones who wanted the best min maxed advantage they could field all the time.

Oh, Oh!!!!

Do the FRR!

And Clans!!!!

Though i was a karate fanboy in my teens i wasnt a Kurita fan. Maybe a redheaded sibling swayed me to the FRR/CGB?!?!?!?!?

[BlakeAteIt]

InspectorG, on 03 January 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Oh, Oh!!!!

Do the FRR!

And Clans!!!!

Though i was a karate fanboy in my teens i wasnt a Kurita fan. Maybe a redheaded sibling swayed me to the FRR/CGB?!?!?!?!?

FRR: Space Vikings, duh.
Kurita: Anime, samurai. Honour.
Davion: Mary Sue a-go-go. Charismatic leadership.
Liao: Inscrutable China In Space, with special guest Space KGB.
Marik: Present.
Steiner: Space German 1%. Atlases with top hats.

Clans: Quoting Faith - "Then when the clans came along, they drew in the power gamers, the ones who wanted the best min maxed advantage they could field all the time." Also - Noble Savages with animal totems in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

Clan Wolf kinda comes off as good guys, except from the point of view of their culture, they were somewhat shady. Maybe good for the IS?

Clan Jade Falcon is kinda wall-to-wall Percy Weasleys.

Smoke Jags are war criminals. I've yet to see a SJ portrayed sympathetically.

Ghost Bear really hit up the Noble Savage thing. Drums, heavy honor emphasis (more so than some other clans), all of it. Plus bears are just charismatic animals.

I take issue with the Davions being the good guys, but the books were certainly written from their perspective.

Sun Tzu Liao came off as a good guy for a while. He did kinda pull plays from the Hanse Davion playbook, though. LOL peacekeepers.

Candace Liao cared for her people first. That put her above most BT leaders.

The "Good" Steiners were okay.

VSD was kinda a good guy, but was also a screwup from time to time.

Kai Liao was a good guy, but he was such a mary sue, I'm not sure he counts.

That Focht guy in ComStar was pretty cool. Trolled the Clans, reformed ComStar, but set off a holy war. Whoops.

FRR in general was kinda good, but existed for like ninety three seconds.

Maybe the various Magistrix of Canopus? I can't remember them doing anything too bad.

Max Liao, Tak Kurita, and Hanse Davion were all equally terrible, basically.

I left out Marik, but so did the BT canon, so whatever.

[Alexander Steel]

BlakeAteIt, on 03 January 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Oh, the Great Refusal. Right. Well, I rolled that all into the O:Bulldog thing. Credit where it's due. He gets a gold star for that.

I separate them because during Bulldog he was sharing command with Focht. Both of them came up with the plan and bounced ideas off of each other and there was a great deal of respect. VSD served more as the leader in the field, while Focht handled the over all big picture stuff.

It was a win for him, certainly, but it's one that I think deservedly gets shared with Focht. Of course the combine considered it good enough that the populace was ok with the idea of Theodore's Daughter sleeping with him sooo.....

Oh that reminds me, he saved Hohiro Kurita from the clans at the request of Takahashi and Omi Kurita. While more of a battlefield victory, that still goes down in the win category.

[StillRadioactive]

BlakeAteIt, on 03 January 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

I left out Marik, but so did the BT canon, so whatever.

There was that one dream sequence in Crescent Hawks' Inception...

[Max Liao]

BlakeAteIt, on 03 January 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

Maybe the various Magistrix of Canopus?

A combination of Space San Francisco (hippies, free love, and all that), plus Space Las Vagas (gambling, fun, and fornication).

While they were in the Great Refusal, and Danai Centrella (heir to the throne of the Magistracy of Canopus) dies in the fighting, mostly they were floating around on Pleasure Circuses selling illegally copied space-DVDs, Faulex watches, and the Shroud of Davion to any sucker willing to buy.

[BlakeAteIt]

So basically, they won.

[Tordin]

Quote

Steiner: Space German 1%. Atlases with top hats.

Dont forget they also have Scots, and Irish?

[percolated1]

As I recall it, the Precentor F.K.A. Freddie Steiner and that one Drakon Aerospace pilot who decided to land her fighter on the bridge of the Clan flagship did substantially more than VSD to save the Inner Sphere from being forced to memorize terribad long-winded space poetry.

[Alexander Steel]

percolated1, on 05 January 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

As I recall it, the Precentor F.K.A. Freddie Steiner and that one Drakon Aerospace pilot who decided to land her fighter on the bridge of the Clan flagship did substantially more than VSD to save the Inner Sphere from being forced to memorize terribad long-winded space poetry.

You are confusing the 1 year of peace in 3051 where the clans lost their ilkhan and had to elect a new one. Caused by the FRR pilot crashing into the command deck of the wolf Warship that was transporting the Ilkhan.

The battle of Tukayid in 3052 where Focht used as a proxy battle for Tera and got the clans to agree to halt their advance towards Terra for 15 years.

Bulldog: The IS coming together and placing both design and command of the IS forces under Focht and VSD in an effort to destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar. Which worked in 3059.

http://www.sarna.net...eration_Bulldog

The Great Refusal: 3060. Where VSD chased the fleeing Smoke Jags back to Clan Space, destroyed them, and then challenged the Clans to a Trial of Refusal that officially ended the Clan invasion if the IS won. Which they did.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Great_Refusal

Edited by Alexander Steel, 06 January 2015 - 07:41 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Tordin, on 05 January 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

Dont forget they also have Scots, and Irish?

That goes for Liao too (the Scots). The gingers are in Davion space (Capellan march).

The Great Refusal was a hollow victory for the IS, as it only stopped those invading clans that had stopped their conquest anyway. It failed to stop both Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon.

[Alexander Steel]

Thorn Hallis, on 06 January 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

That goes for Liao too (the Scots). The gingers are in Davion space (Capellan march).

The Great Refusal was a hollow victory for the IS, as it only stopped those invading clans that had stopped their conquest anyway. It failed to stop both Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon.

Actually the Great Refusal was a huge victory for the IS as it's direct fall out led to the hard break between the Clans in Clan Space and the Clans in the IS.

[percolated1]

Alexander Steel, on 06 January 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

You are confusing the 1 year of peace in 3051 where the clans lost their ilkhan and had to elect a new one. Caused by the FRR pilot crashing into the command deck of the wolf Warship that was transporting the Ilkhan.

The battle of Tukayid in 3052 where Focht used as a proxy battle for Tera and got the clans to agree to halt their advance towards Terra for 15 years.

Bulldog: The IS coming together and placing both design and command of the IS forces under Focht and VSD in an effort to destroy Clan Smoke Jaguar. Which worked in 3059.

http://www.sarna.net...eration_Bulldog

The Great Refusal: 3060. Where VSD chased the fleeing Smoke Jags back to Clan Space, destroyed them, and then challenged the Clans to a Trial of Refusal that officially ended the Clan invasion if the IS won. Which they did.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Great_Refusal

My assertion is based on timing and relative importance in the big picture. Had ilKhan Showers not been killed when he was, and had Focht not defeated the Clans at Tukayid, Victor couldn't have "saved the Inner Sphere" (along with Focht, Sun-Tzu Liao, and everybody else in the IS save Katrina Steiner pretty much) or been the person charged with cleanup duty (not exactly saving the IS) by wiping out the Smoke Jags. But, as they say, the Victors write the history....