91 replies to this topic

[Joe Mallad]

Brody319, on 14 December 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

I'm fine when it doesn't matter. Defenders will always win against a team of equal skill if you just stand around and fight.

Unless you remove almost every advantage the Defenders have, attacking will always take a back seat to rushing the generator.

im all for it being fair for both sides. But I do believe each side needs more objectives other than take out all enemy, kill the cannon or just sit and wait for the attackers to come to you. These maps have all this middle ground. Put an objective there that needs to be fought over/ destroyed or something. And from that point the battle would either shift to pushing the attackers back to their drop points or push the defense back to their main base.

I like that we are getting these new maps and game types but they really are just too cut and dry with not a lot of added thought about depth an making the game modes and maps feel awesome.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 14 December 2014 - 06:05 PM.

[Artgathan]

Almond Brown, on 14 December 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

Simply make the Generator tougher. Ever week, increase the points needed to destroy it "slowly" until they reach a point where a 12 Light Mech Wave Rush cannot accomplish the task by themselves.

OR

Allow the generator to be "repaired" when not under direct attack. So if Wave 1 fails but does 80%, by the time wave 2 arrives, the "Techs" have repaired the damage done.

Not targeting you specifically here - but all the suggestions of 'make the generator self-repair between waves!' or 'buff the health' or 'give it armor' will just make it impossible for the attackers to win. There is no reason for the attackers to fight the defenders. It accomplish anything except waste their already limited time, since you can't "push back" the defenders. You can't push them back because their rally point IS the objective they're defending.

[Void2258]

Roknari, on 14 December 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

Two schools of thought.

1) Make it harder to zerg rush. Add turrets with small pulse and SSRMs with BAP to the area behind the gun. If the zergers have to take out the turrets before they can get the Omega, then that gives the defenders more time to fight the rushers. This decreases the sucessfulness of the rush.

2) Add some objectives to the game. Before you can kill the Omega at the gun, make it so you have to take out a communications array, or a command post, or a HPG uplink. Anything that slows down the rush. Or even a certain percentage of the defense turrets.

The rush not only makes it easier to win, but it gets you more wins on planet faster. So if you are rushing, you are getting attacks on faster on a planet than someone who is trying to push in with heavies and assaults....

All that this will do is add additional targets to zerg rush. The problem right now is that the defender advantage is so high that zerg rushing is the only possible option. In this situation no sane commander would attempt a ground assault, and so we have unrealistic things like waves of "soldiers" suicide running because that is the only possible tactic.

The fight needs to be more even and the there needs to be a reason for both sides to preserve their forces. Otherwise the lack of consequences to dieing will encourage this action.

[Joe Mallad]

Void2258, on 14 December 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

All that this will do is add additional targets to zerg rush. The problem right now is that the defender advantage is so high that zerg rushing is the only possible option. In this situation no sane commander would attempt a ground assault, and so we have unrealistic things like waves of "soldiers" suicide running because that is the only possible tactic.

The fight needs to be more even and the there needs to be a reason for both sides to preserve their forces. Otherwise the lack of consequences to dieing will encourage this action.

actually, I have to disagree just a bit with you bud. Think about it... If this tactic is working now for most, even with drop ship damage and base defenses being what they are. Do you really think the teams that have perfected this base rush tactic will just stop to then fight the defenders because the defenders advantages have been lessened? No smart team would lol. You now take away the defenders advantages and you are just making it even easier for the attackers to rush the cannon and ignore the defenders.

Again, we are looking at bad map and single objective creation. The maps needs to be reworked for multiple objectives "per side" that don't involve just rush or just sit and wait for the fight to come to you.

[Kirkland Langue]

How often would IS win attacking Clan on the snow map if the IS team didn't rush the base?
Is this important?

[Dino Might]

Here's an idea - instead of taking out the generator, make it a capture style game to prevent the defending dropships from being able to drop reinforcements. Kind of like in conquest, you "capture" one of the LZs, now the defenders can't drop fresh mechs there.

There would need to be some way to even things out for the attackers though, because attrition would wear them down too much to take the third LZ most likely.

[Barantor]

I would rework invasion a lot.

Defenders start a little ways from the gun, but behind the base walls.

Attackers start at drop point Alpha.

If attackers move up to drop point Beta (which is closer to the main base) they can then spawn from there.

If attackers move up to drop point Gamma (which is the closest to base) they can spawn from there.

Make it so that the Defenders can take back the drop points sort of like conquest. Defenders have enough time with mechs that are fast enough to take Gamma before the attackers can get there if they move it. If defenders take drop point Alpha, game over, defenders win.

Defenders can be overtaken if they allow the attackers inside the walls of the base and the Gamma drop point. Gamma drop point has to be taken before the attackers can even attack the base.

This gives progressive goals for the attacker, a way for the defender to push the attacker off the planet, and a chance for the attacker to have free reign at the base generator if they kill enough of the defenders.

[Dino Might]

Barantor, on 14 December 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I would rework invasion a lot.

Defenders start a little ways from the gun, but behind the base walls.

Attackers start at drop point Alpha.

If attackers move up to drop point Beta (which is closer to the main base) they can then spawn from there.

If attackers move up to drop point Gamma (which is the closest to base) they can spawn from there.

Make it so that the Defenders can take back the drop points sort of like conquest. Defenders have enough time with mechs that are fast enough to take Gamma before the attackers can get there if they move it. If defenders take drop point Alpha, game over, defenders win.

Defenders can be overtaken if they allow the attackers inside the walls of the base and the Gamma drop point. Gamma drop point has to be taken before the attackers can even attack the base.

This gives progressive goals for the attacker, a way for the defender to push the attacker off the planet, and a chance for the attacker to have free reign at the base generator if they kill enough of the defenders.

I like this idea. I also still like the current mechanic, which can likely be made better with a few fixes. I would like to see your idea added to the pool of possible game modes that CW will encompass. I would like it if there were a number of different types of games that you drop into - could make it randomized on loading, leading to less min/maxing if you don't know which mode you will get before you drop.

[Josef Nader]

There is a simple, short term solution to this that is present in almost every asymmetrical attack/defend game mode out there.

Raise the respawn timer for the defender. They have the stronger position and the easier fight. Bump up their respawn timer to 60, or even 90 seconds. Make the death of a defender matter. Give the attackers an opening to seriously push the base. A defender going down needs to be an opening. As it stands right now, it's cripping the attacker's ability to actually accomplish their goal. Killing a defending mech is a terrible thing to do for the attacker, as it means that a dropship full of lasers AND a fresh enemy mech is going to be between them and their objective long before they can actually reach it. If the attackers manage to destroy the entire defensive team at the gates, the team will have respawned by the time they get to the generator, and they'll get pounded out of creation by completely fresh mechs.

Honestly, with the walk attackers have to make, I'd even suggest dropping their respawn timer to 20, or even 10 seconds, and upping the defender's timer to 60 or 90 seconds. The attackers need to be able to regroup and keep pressure up, or there is simply no way for them to break through the defensive line short of a blitzkrieg attack.

If we're still having trouble with light mech rushes being super powerful after that, then we can up the base turrets to include some LRMs, SRMs, and autocannons. For now, let's just start with increasing the respawn timers for the defenders. After that, drop respawn timers for attackers.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

We could just ditch the archaic idea of "defense."

I rather hate the idea of "defense."

The last time a static defensive posture was taken up was WW2. And it was a strategic failure.


I would have rather had a meeting engagement where it was skirmish with respawns or King of the Hill.

Since attack/defend isn't going away, ditch the defenders dropships. They come from a mech hangar off on the side and have 45-60 second respawns, then increase the health of the generator.

Right now, if attack wants to win against anyone that can chew gum and walk at the same time, the only viable tactic is to rush the generator.

[TripleEhBeef]

Taking a page from BF's Rush mode probably would have helped. Have multiple stages, place the defender spawn further back from the objective but in an area deemed out of bounds for Attackers, and maybe even out the terrain so the defenders don't have huge killboxes. Turrets can stay, but have less per stage then currently in the bases.

Better yet, also add an Evac stage where the attackers need to fall back to their dropships in their current mechs for extraction. For every mech that evacs safely, attackers get a Cbill/LP bonus. For every mech the defenders kill, they get the bonus. Attacker respawns would be disabled here. And toss an extra few cbills if all attackers evac/are killed accordingly.

[Felicitatem Parco]

More turrets...Quad ML turrets designed to engage Lights within their short-range weapons' ranges. Quad ML turrets would not impossibly deter an assault force with ERLLs and PPCs.

I would NOT leave my gun with less than a dozen turrets in its close proximity... just saying.

This would deter a Zerg Rush, but not a planned Assault Charge.


_____________________

We could make the game less-Zergy if the gates could be blasted open from the outside, allowing slower Assault forces to engage the base without resorting to massed Light Flights.
_____________________


So, if you add more short-range turrets, and make ground forces more able to charge, then the game becomes less of a Light Rush. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but it may improve the game.

[Mordin Ashe]

If you take opinions of someone who has been playing CW the whole weekend, here it is:

Rushes are over-rated and under-rated at the same time.
Each and every rush can be stopped if countered early enough. The frozen map is simple, start shooting the enemy when they pass the gate and no more that 4-5 Mechs will even reach the base in order to get slaughtered by turrets. Leave the enemy alone until they reach your base and you have a problem, simply can't leg everyone in time.
The sulphur map is more complicated by having 3 approach routes, which is great from tactical point of view but complicates life of pugs because they have to cover more territory. The safest way to counter any rush is to have 1 scout at every gate and the whole force at omega. Once scout spots the enemy, unless it is 10+ Mechs, 1/2 of team moves to respective gate to help. Once the enemy team gets to omega, they are weakened (or still harrassed) and still have half of your team, turrets and dropships to face. In case enemy comes from 2 sides, simply make the other half of your team to help in the other direction. It is a general rule and sometimes needs some adjustments, but generally each defence battle we won was assured by doing exactly this, our losses came from inability to do what I just wrote. Also, team has to learn how to move within base, moving between buildings makes you arrive sooner but leaves you unable to shoot enemies that pop up near omega. Try sticking to the back of the base, this way you can easily defend from Mechs comming from both alpha and gamma while still defendinf Omega quite well.

Rushing is, in its core, a DPS issue. You gun the rush down early, you probably win. You start doing damage too late and you find yourself overpowered. Even average pugs (I was 1 of them) were capable of gunning down two waves of IS OP lights and our base was still at 50%. The rest was simple because the enemy had heavies and assautls - slow Mechs you can gun down long before they get into position where they can hurt you.

There are some OP things in CW, mostly on IS side - OP lights and that Thunderbolt with 3xERPPC that is better than most things Clans can come up with. Facing that thing? Yikes... Clans have one incredibly OP thing and it is called cooperation, most of Clan drops I saw were either 12-mans or few pugs+some big group. Can't really prevent that though, and it is not like it is Clan-exclusive. Congratz to CI for organizing FRR defence, for example.

[GumbyC2C]

No matter what you make the objective in an attack/defend situation, a murderball/Zerg Rush will always be a viable tactic. Map design may mitigate that somewhat but it will still be viable.

[Spurowny]

Couldn't they just up the amount of health Omega has by like 10x and fill in that little gap behind it?

I think that would fix the problem.

[GumbyC2C]

Maybe you could be required to take out all the turrets before the final objective can be damaged.
Or perhaps make it a capture objective where you need to have all the defenders out of the cap zone before it starts to fall. But I think that would just lead to med/heavy zerg rush.

Like I said, it can be mitigated but it will always remain viable.

[Vassago Rain]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 December 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

We could just ditch the archaic idea of "defense."

I rather hate the idea of "defense."

The last time a static defensive posture was taken up was WW2. And it was a strategic failure.


I would have rather had a meeting engagement where it was skirmish with respawns or King of the Hill.

Since attack/defend isn't going away, ditch the defenders dropships. They come from a mech hangar off on the side and have 45-60 second respawns, then increase the health of the generator.

Right now, if attack wants to win against anyone that can chew gum and walk at the same time, the only viable tactic is to rush the generator.

Not a single person involved in the CW design process thought about this. The lack of imagination employed is quite staggering.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 14 December 2014 - 11:31 PM.

[Fenris Ulfr]

At this point any move made to lesson the difficulty of killing the turret to be encourage people to not zerg will just make the zerg more powerful. Turrets will not fix this issue because yoi can just hammer those with assaults and then zerg in the 2nd ot 3rd wave. You need to give the defender the ability to actually defend the gates or scrap the game mode in favor of a tdm or conquest style match. You also have to open up the maps because the channels arebad for both sides. The defender cant leave the gun because it is very easy to kill when it is zerged. They cant leave it be cause to be forward deplyed means people just bypass you in a different channel on sulfur or with faster mechs on the vale. For the attacker the channels mean ni tactical flexabilty once you commit to a certain point its not possible to shift. We need maps like we use in pub quer but larger like 4 to 5 times bigger. To make your current idea possible.

[Driftwoood]

Josef Nader, on 14 December 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

There is a simple, short term solution to this that is present in almost every asymmetrical attack/defend game mode out there.

Raise the respawn timer for the defender. They have the stronger position and the easier fight. Bump up their respawn timer to 60, or even 90 seconds. Make the death of a defender matter. Give the attackers an opening to seriously push the base. A defender going down needs to be an opening. As it stands right now, it's cripping the attacker's ability to actually accomplish their goal. Killing a defending mech is a terrible thing to do for the attacker, as it means that a dropship full of lasers AND a fresh enemy mech is going to be between them and their objective long before they can actually reach it. If the attackers manage to destroy the entire defensive team at the gates, the team will have respawned by the time they get to the generator, and they'll get pounded out of creation by completely fresh mechs.

Honestly, with the walk attackers have to make, I'd even suggest dropping their respawn timer to 20, or even 10 seconds, and upping the defender's timer to 60 or 90 seconds. The attackers need to be able to regroup and keep pressure up, or there is simply no way for them to break through the defensive line short of a blitzkrieg attack.

If we're still having trouble with light mech rushes being super powerful after that, then we can up the base turrets to include some LRMs, SRMs, and autocannons. For now, let's just start with increasing the respawn timers for the defenders. After that, drop respawn timers for attackers.

I agree completely, and this seems like a pretty good idea on the face of it... certainly worth trying, very simple to adjust...

Edited by Driftwoood, 15 December 2014 - 12:09 AM.

[DasSibby]

Roknari, on 14 December 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

2) Add some objectives to the game. Before you can kill the Omega at the gun, make it so you have to take out a communications array, or a command post, or a HPG uplink. Anything that slows down the rush. Or even a certain percentage of the defense turrets.

I think having almost a... Forward Base would work. Have it be outside the gates so the defenders can make a stand, and take out some enemy mechs. Call it a, "Jammer" or something.

That'd be a lot of fun!