196 replies to this topic

[AlphaToaster]

Honestly if someone has to use trial mechs to fill out their drop deck for CW they should expect to get worked.

Not only do they have no basics unlocked they have no modules so.... it's an unrealistic expectation when CW is supposedly considered end game.

Someone who doesn't own 240 tons of mechs and the modules for those mechs isn't fully ready for end game.

Being in a group with players that are trusted to perform may allow some players to get away with using trial mechs, but really they're being carried by their group when they end up in their trial.

Too many people joining the same team and all expecting to be carried by others is a recipe for defeat in every online game I've ever played. Not surprised it's the same here.

[JackkyChan]

Too many people joining the same team and all expecting to be carried by others is a recipe for defeat in every online game I've ever played. Not surprised it's the same here.
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Your right but then again CW is not catering to 90% of the players in MWO which are pugs/solo casual players with limited modules and mechs.Which from my point of view is why MWO is failing on so many levels CW is a bust for 90%of the players in MWO and the solo MM queues are such low payout on rewards you have to grind forever to get 3 mechs to elite skills + modules to be competitive.

CW should have been matched up for all levels of players and mech skills for pugs first then groups not groups first then pugs PGI got it backwards once again on player priority's in MM game play for CW. To fix CW for low launch times and more players the CW MM needs to group up pugs/casuals first then add 12 man groups when it can.A 12v12 all pug game for CW would work as well as a 12 man group Vs a all pug 12 man. this way many more could play CW not just 12 man groups.

P.S I just will not wait 10-15 minutes to even see if I get a CW match it is just a waste of my time.And with the crappy rewards in solo/pug MM queues now it also is becoming a waste of my time.I can play other more rewarding games than MWO 24/7 7 days a week for free.

Edited by JackkyChan, 30 December 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[XphR]

It does not take long to elite three mechs, unless you are doing very badly in said mechs. It is also not something that should be accomplished in just a handfull of matches.

[Weirdjedi]

Through my experience of playing 12 rounds of Community Warfare, I never thought I would change my opinion so much.

• Initial Community Warfare confusion. 2 solo rounds before the patch hit. A total of 45 minutes waiting before each round. Same planet. Patience was running thin.

I think a lot of people had the problem of trying to figure out what to do. There was a lot of information in the patch notes and developer posts regarding how to pick a faction and join the queue. Yet, I can still see the mass confusion regarding how to attack the generators and win the game. Personally, I tried a lot of things like shooting the barriers and the top parts of the orbital cannon. The wait time totally destroyed any sort of fun to be had. I switched planets, made lunch, took a shower... anything to be able to see the new maps. I even hoped that they would add them to the testing grounds. Thankfully they fixed most of the issues with adding the visual queues to the planets.

• 2 group rounds with friends. Same planet. We were not able to destroy any of the three generators. IS vs CLAN.

About this time I was beginning to get irritated. I dropped on the same hot planet, attacking each time, and was matched up versus clans all four times. Then there was the added extra layer of difficulty with the three generators they included in the patch. After watching a couple of videos, I understood the reason why they included the generators was to deter zerg rushes. I guess that is the type of thing a 12-man group would do. Because of the speed of IS lights, this would make an awesome tactic. Though, I question whether groups would still be able to have fun that way without a real fight.

• 7 solo rounds. All ice planet. IS vs CLAN. Attacking.

This is about the time I found this thread. We were completely destroyed by clan mechs to the point of being spawn camped. I began hoping for some turrets to suddenly pop out and repel the enemy forces. I even tried moving and using jump jets as I was dropped to my doom. Why was I dropped in the exact same spot as my last mech anyways? I began questioning if I would ever get to defend even though I chose to "defend" each planet. I threw a fit. Losing every match meant not getting both the contract and achievement rewards. I blamed anything I could: clan weapons, clan tonnage, meta loadouts, lack of elo matchmaking. I thought things would never get better and I would eventually quit trying all together.

• 4 rounds defending ice planet. IS vs CLAN. Won each round to the extreme.

You should have heard me yell "Finally!" as I saw my mech drop into a base. My entire outlook changed. I stopped blaming the pilots and the mechs. I could clearly see an issue with how the maps were setup. Pushing mechs through a funnel is just asking for a slaughter. It felt good to actually win for a change. I will still believe that the tide of battle will change from any number of reasons. Honestly, I would have more fun if there was a constant struggle to win on both sides throughout the entire round. I just wish "attacking" or "defending" was less of a determining factor... especially when it is given to chance.

TLDR: It isn't fun waiting. It isn't fun IS vs Clans. Most of all (at least in my experience), it isn't fun attacking. It is up to you whether completely stomping your opponent is fun or not.

[Widowmaker1981]

Whiteagle, on 30 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Clanner, do you like playing against no one in this game?


...Because this is what's going to end up happening.

There is such a thing as having a Map set up that it too strongly favors the Defenders and, in a GAME when that happens, no one wants to attack it.


EXACTLY!
Best example is to look at the Trial Mechs, which most players will be using to fill out a Drop Deck.

IS:
Almost everything is focused on Mid-range, with only the occasional long-range build in the Heavy or Assault Categories.

Clans:
Mostly Long Range, and builds like the Nova with entirely ER Medium Lasers are a rarity.
Addler: Duel ER PPC
Kit Fox: ER Large Laser

Stormcrow: Duel ER Large Laser

SUMMONER: ER PPC
Timberwolf: Duel ER Large Laser

Warhawk: QUAD ER PPC
Direwolf: QUAD ER Large Laser


They are using STOCK Mechs because that's mostly what they have to fill their Drop Decks...

Not everyone is a $300+ Gold Piggy-bank...


How about if IS Trial Mechs were brought up to the level of CLAN Trial mechs?

Fine, bring IS trials to the same level as clan trials. no problem.. (and yeah, they are behind). It wont make even the slightest difference though. Trial mechs are unmastered (IS and Clan). You are not getting killed by unmastered trial clan mechs, you are getting killed by tweaked out fully mastered clan mechs, and what you need to compete are tweaked out mastered IS mechs. CW is 'endgame' and in no game with any kind of progression ever can you compete at endgame without spending a lot of time. In this game you have the option of shortcutting with actual $$, but i wouldnt really recommend it since the time spent building your mech stable also teaches you the game - now with CW out the solo and small group queue are much friendlier places to play in since most of the 'hardcore' types are in the CW queue.

Expectations are the issue here, not the game, obvious map design and map quantity issues not withstanding.

edit: note - IS tag, i play both in CW in alternating weeks, and to be honest i do just as well with my IS mechs, if not better on average.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 31 December 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[Demuder]

Whiteagle, on 30 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Not everyone is a $300+ Gold Piggy-bank...


How about if IS Trial Mechs were brought up to the level of CLAN Trial mechs?

You don't need to have a $300 piggy bank to buy and customize a nice IS dropdeck. You just need to have played - for free I might add - the game for a couple of months. Assuming a million c-bills per day (which is quite easy to do in normal queues), that's more than enough to buy an customize whatever you like. What's more, you will gain necessary experience that will help you understand that is not your run-of-mill, point-and-headshot FPS game, something many players just don't seem to (want to) understand.

All you need is mech bays, which are very, very cheap - I mean you do need to give something back to PGI for... creating and running the game, right ?

A starting IS player can make an effective IS dropdeck a lot easier than a starting Clan player (assuming they have been playing for the same amount of time) as far as c-blls or real cash is concerned. I just don't see what else PGI can do for that apart from communicating it better to the players.

[XphR]

Demuder, on 31 December 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

All you need is mech bays, which are very, very cheap - I mean you do need to give something back to PGI for... creating and running the game, right ?

And even the mechbays have been passed out generously in previous challenges as well as being included in the avalible "loot" from the grab bag events.

[Widowmaker1981]

Demuder, on 31 December 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

A starting IS player can make an effective IS dropdeck a lot easier than a starting Clan player (assuming they have been playing for the same amount of time) as far as c-blls or real cash is concerned. I just don't see what else PGI can do for that apart from communicating it better to the players.

Thats true, 3 thunderbolts and 3 blackjacks, with only 1 blackjack fully set up would cost a little under 50 million total. 3 timberwolves and 3 stormcrows costs nearly 90 million just for the mechs. Getting into more than 2 chassis increases the cost for both sides. costs not including modules but those cost the same for each side.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 30 December 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

So you honestly think a base that allows the defenders an avenue to effectively sally against the enemy is "bad map design"? Hmm, I think I should quote myself:

And no, Clans teams are not the only ones sallying out of their still-intact gates.

Also, I offer a different perspective. If a base that is supposedly very difficult to attack is taken over by the enemy, what are you going to do when you are asked to take it back?

No. Why make things easier for the attacker?

Also, see my "different perspective" above.

Not easier, it would just provide another Mode within a Mode. If the Omega Generator fails, then killing will be the new mode. Timer still applies. The idea has nothing to do with making things easier. Just less predictable.

[Basilisk222]

Widowmaker1981, on 31 December 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Thats true, 3 thunderbolts and 3 blackjacks, with only 1 blackjack fully set up would cost a little under 50 million total. 3 timberwolves and 3 stormcrows costs nearly 90 million just for the mechs. Getting into more than 2 chassis increases the cost for both sides. costs not including modules but those cost the same for each side.

I think that's a lot of the IS plight. They're just cheaper overall in the store. A new player sees the price tags of the clan mechs vs IS ones says I don't want to play for 2 years to earn that kind of coin, and go IS. Meanwhile clan players that are new generally bought the chassis, which means they at least have the bonus of unlocking all kinds of bonuses, and don't have to fiddle enormously with the loadouts.


Course they don't see those XL, endo steel, FF armor, and weapon prices prices until WAAAAAAAAAAAY too late.

[Mystere]

Almond Brown, on 31 December 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Not easier, it would just provide another Mode within a Mode. If the Omega Generator fails, then killing will be the new mode. Timer still applies. The idea has nothing to do with making things easier. Just less predictable.

Ah! Now I see your point.

But, I would like to add just one thing. The attackers should get new orders flashed on their HUD: kill all defenders. Otherwise, if the cannons stop working, then it's mission accomplished.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kilgorin Strom, on 31 December 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think that's a lot of the IS plight. They're just cheaper overall in the store. A new player sees the price tags of the clan mechs vs IS ones says I don't want to play for 2 years to earn that kind of coin, and go IS. Meanwhile clan players that are new generally bought the chassis, which means they at least have the bonus of unlocking all kinds of bonuses, and don't have to fiddle enormously with the loadouts.


Course they don't see those XL, endo steel, FF armor, and weapon prices prices until WAAAAAAAAAAAY too late.

In fairness though, that 50 million includes 3xSTD 300 engines for the thuds, an XL 280 for the Blackjack and endo steel and DHS for 4 mechs. didnt work out weapon upgrades but thats cheaper for IS anyway... i dont really think 50-70 hours of play is unreasonable for an endgame CW deck. Admittedly its cheap because thunderbolts run STDs, but thats part of the reason i chose them as a good start drop deck (and the fact that they are the best IS heavy atm)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 31 December 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Whiteagle]

Widowmaker1981, on 31 December 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Fine, bring IS trials to the same level as clan trials. no problem.. (and yeah, they are behind). It wont make even the slightest difference though. Trial mechs are unmastered (IS and Clan). You are not getting killed by unmastered trial clan mechs, you are getting killed by tweaked out fully mastered clan mechs, and what you need to compete are tweaked out mastered IS mechs.

...Ugh...
Do you not realize that, by having good Trial Mechs, one can fill up a full Drop Deck easier, right?

So you can buy THREE Stormcrows, and have an extra one available to do a full Medium deck.

PLUS, you're unlocked tweaks are still carried over to those models, since "Champion" mechs are still considered the same as their Base Chassis in the Experience Trees.

Widowmaker1981, on 31 December 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

CW is 'endgame' and in no game with any kind of progression ever can you compete at endgame without spending a lot of time.

If CW is suppose to be the "Endgame" then why does it PAY BETTER than the Single Mech Matches?

...Not to mention Community Warfare was something the Developers promised as the primary point of the game FROM THE GET GO!

Widowmaker1981, on 31 December 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Expectations are the issue here, not the game, obvious map design and map quantity issues not withstanding.

No, the game has plenty of issues, it's primary feature FINALLY being implemented only highlights them...

Demuder, on 31 December 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

All you need is mech bays, which are very, very cheap - I mean you do need to give something back to PGI for... creating and running the game, right ?

If PGI was a decent Developer, then yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping in a bit...

...Problem is, they are far FAR from being a decent Developer...

XphR, on 31 December 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

And even the mechbays have been passed out generously in previous challenges as well as being included in the avalible "loot" from the grab bag events.

Yes, this AND the recent work that has been done to release Community Warfare is a step in the right direction, so let's hope PGI continues this improvement.

Kilgorin Strom, on 31 December 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think that's a lot of the IS plight. They're just cheaper overall in the store. A new player sees the price tags of the clan mechs vs IS ones says I don't want to play for 2 years to earn that kind of coin, and go IS. Meanwhile clan players that are new generally bought the chassis, which means they at least have the bonus of unlocking all kinds of bonuses, and don't have to fiddle enormously with the loadouts.


Course they don't see those XL, endo steel, FF armor, and weapon prices prices until WAAAAAAAAAAAY too late.

Yeah, it doesn't help that the InnerSphere Mechs have so many options as to the point of detriment...

It's certainly not helped by the ever shifting Meta game, where buffs and nerfs make builds and even entire chassis Flavor of the Month one minute and labeled completely useless the next, so any outdated advice on Mech Building could easily break the bank and STILL leave you with nothing to show for it.

[Demuder]

Whiteagle, on 31 December 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

If PGI was a decent Developer, then yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping in a bit...

...Problem is, they are far FAR from being a decent Developer...

What are you talking about ? Being recent or old, they need to keep the server running and they need to keep developing the game. That means they need money all the time.

You don't want to buy mechs out of pocket, great. You can buy them with c-bills - quite easily.
You don't want to pay for premium time, great. You just make less c-bills, but you do make c-bills like everyone else.
You don't want to buy mechbays, great. You can wait and get them for free, it just take time to get the promo events.

In short, if you don't want to chip in, that absolutely fine, it's up to you and you will eventually get everything someone who pays will. However, it will take more time to get where you want. What is wrong with that ?

[Krivvan]

Whiteagle, on 30 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

How about if IS Trial Mechs were brought up to the level of CLAN Trial mechs?

I don't know if you know this, but the IS Trials (champion builds) are actually significantly better than the Clan trials (stock builds).

The Stock Stormcrow is decent.

The Timberwolf is awful. Two ERLL alone means nothing when it has a random pulse laser and LRMs. 2 ERLL is the armament of a damn Kit Fox.

The Dire is bad for the same reason.

4 ERPPCs for the Warhawk is a bad build. Clan PPCs are too hot to use like that.

When you actually use the Stock Adder you realize you do not have the heat sinks for 2 cERPPC.

The Kit Fox is inexcusable, I don't know what to say if you think a random streak, a random small laser, a random large laser, and a single random LBX is a usable build.

The Nova isn't worth mentioning.

[MischiefSC]

Krivvan, on 01 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

I don't know if you know this, but the IS Trials (champion builds) are actually significantly better than the Clan trials (stock builds).

The Stock Stormcrow is decent.

The Timberwolf is awful. Two ERLL alone means nothing when it has a random pulse laser and LRMs. 2 ERLL is the armament of a damn Kit Fox.

The Dire is bad for the same reason.

4 ERPPCs for the Warhawk is a bad build. Clan PPCs are too hot to use like that.

When you actually use the Stock Adder you realize you do not have the heat sinks for 2 cERPPC.

The Kit Fox is inexcusable, I don't know what to say if you think a random streak, a random small laser, a random large laser, and a single random LBX is a usable build.

The Nova isn't worth mentioning.

I genuinely think the Clan stock builds were put together by someone wanting to make a showcase of Clan weapons and they got to the Warhawk and said 'hey.... we haven't put PPCs on anything.'

'True but that's because they are pretty terrible'

'Yes, but all the Clan builds we've done are terrible, so what? Let's just put PPCs on it and nothing else. How many can we fit?'

'Looks like 4, but that would be stupid. It would be unusable. 4 ERLLs and some ERMLs would give the same range and better functional DPS, better heat management and the like.'

'Don't be a *****. Look what we did to the Kit Fox. We tried to pack in one weapon of each type at random with absolutely no context or attention to what was useful, just wanted to put a streak, a big and small laser and an LBX on it. This isn't the worst thing we've done today.'

[Priest4357]

Funny thing about this thread... Most of the clan pilots are talking about how easy it is to be IS for CW, and we need to suck it up and be fodder... I mean play better. It is all about our lack of skill.

The IS pilots all think CW sucks ass, and I agree... then again I am an IS pilot.

I do hope PGI comes up with better ideas for CW, because this iteration is the pits.

[Mystere]

Whiteagle, on 31 December 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

If PGI was a decent Developer, then yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping in a bit...

...Problem is, they are far FAR from being a decent Developer...

If everyone had your attitude (i.e. playing totally for free), then the servers will shut down soon enough. Is that what you want?

Edited by Mystere, 01 January 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[XphR]

Krivvan, on 01 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

4 ERPPCs for the Warhawk is a bad build. Clan PPCs are too hot to use like that.

When you actually use the Stock Adder you realize you do not have the heat sinks for 2 cERPPC.

The Warhawk Prime is a bolt casting Wizard of pure hate, the Adder his apprentice. These Mechs are both great at what they do. I little fire discipline goes a long way on Clan E-Mechs and E-Mechs in general.

[Yokaiko]

Anuerysm, on 01 January 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Funny thing about this thread... Most of the clan pilots are talking about how easy it is to be IS for CW, and we need to suck it up and be fodder... I mean play better. It is all about our lack of skill.

The IS pilots all think CW sucks ass, and I agree... then again I am an IS pilot.

I do hope PGI comes up with better ideas for CW, because this iteration is the pits.

Its groupthink from all of the whining on the forums, I've been playing IS exclusively since I started playing again.

You know what sucks. IS players.

I just spent 20 minutes typing tyring to get a IS counter-attack actually attacking.

First wave, got the doors open on snow map only down three mechs (hey its a win with a pug) THEN no one wants to move out of the doors, this is under heavy fire, so that wave is a bust.

Second wave and 5 minutes of typing later I get them formed and pushing.....most of them, there are STILL three special snowflakes "sniping" on the otherside. They push, they leave the assaults behind and get zerged under

...ok expected.

That was it, they sort of pushed for a third wave, but all stopped barely under the hil....swarmed and destroyed

It has NOTHING to do with inferior mech, and everything to do with "casuals" who want to play an team based PvP game like a ******* console shooter.