919 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

DV McKenna, on 28 December 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Hey get out of my head, that's how i read Dracol's post too!

*facepalm* wow, guess I'm guilty by association, eh? Cause, that is the only way you could have connected anything within w00tzorzs post to what I had posted. Which, by the way was in essence "The topic was will Wolf step aside or are they looking for a fight? Don't care about any of the other stuff that was added and is side tracking from that topic."

[Noesis]

w00tzor, on 28 December 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

"Hey there, we from MS are the good guys, let us take your planets so we can go and fail taking CJF planets, but if you don't like our plan we're going to do it anyway because we're the good guys and Lords are racists!"

From my perspective maybe not "intentionally" being racist. But I would guess from the need to triviliase the material the "humour" used demonstates a niave and immature group. It is the kind of thing that teenagers would say to try and get attention and "look cool".

As a result this kind of folly or clowning around only helps to propogate prejudice and devalue the material being discussed due to the ignorance and lack of consderation shown, this even with filters in place by the "adults".

In essence it is the Lords' values that are thrown in to question since they do not respect the topic material or the people effected by it as a result nor do they then demonstrate any responsibility for the actions taken, if anything appearing not to care and are quite nonchalant about it by being more dissmissive or "in denial" about their actions.

This whilst remembering that it isnt really in the context of "big stompy robots" and just thrown in as a kind of attention seeking since they can't relate in a more effective way.

---

As such it may appear that any "crusade" might be about educating the Lords about the social narrative than geographical conquest.

[Jaroth Corbett]

This topic has really gotten off topic. I mean.............wow. First of all, you guys do realize this is a trial run right? Everything gets wiped in March & CW gets officially launched. The battles that took place or are taking place will not matter then. The relationships between the individual units however is a different matter. I was very surprised that we had mercs working for us. For the record, the Clans do not employ mercs. On the contrary, it was Clan Ghost Bear that officially declared mercenary units dezgra & set up standing orders stating there would be no zellbrigen or batchalls issued to mercs. I do not mean this as an insult to the mercs fighting for us, just saying that I am surprised.

Additionally Jade Falcon, Wolf, Ghost Bear & Smoke Jaguar share attack corridors. The Jaguars fight the DC, the Bears fight the DC + FRR, the Wolves fight the FRR+FC & the Falcons fight the FC. This was why Wolf & Ghost Bear had to bid to conquer Rasalhague. Taking this into consideration, I think we should have a mature, thoughtful discussion on how we coordinate these attacks leading to Terra. We must now also consider the facts of MWO provided by PGI. This will NOT be handled as stated in the lore seeing as we are going to write our own history & forge our own destiny. We see that the CC & the FWL are active participants in CW which did not happen in the lore.

I would suggest that instead of this ankle biting, name calling, petty bickering & focus shifting posts we attempt to organize for March. Seeing as there is no ilKhan to coordinate our efforts, this will be doubly important. For example, will we, as is the case in the lore, set up attacks in waves? Will the waves be weekly, fortnightly or monthly? Can we have agreements between Clans for how fights actually take place? e.g. instead of just zerg rushing the base, knocking out 3 mini generators then firing on the main one for the orbital cannon, Clan warriors go to toe with each other away from turrets & dropship fire, then if say the attackers are victorious they will be then left to navigate the turrets in whatever mechs are left in each warrior's drop deck?

I am just spitballing here, but CW is what I have been waiting for since MW3 & right now looking at this thread, as well as some others, we have pilots who are not in leadership positions, taking pot shots at members of different units, accusations are made, insults are hurled, then a unit leader comes on, says X member does not speak for all of us, which then digresses into something else, rinse & repeat? Seriously? Can we focus on the worlds previously inaccessible to us in the lore (FWL & CC), to see how best we can use those fronts to get us to Terra? Because I think if this keeps up when March rolls around & trust me it will be here before we can blink twice, because January is only a few days away, we will look like we do not know our asses from our elbows.

My suggestions:

Wolves get your **** together; you guys have fractured so much it is ridiculous. Jaguars, you have the smallest touman this is true but there are Clans playing in CW that are not in the Big Four, you can offer them contracts to fight with you while retaining their identity. I saw Goliath Scorpions, Snow Ravens & Hell's Horses running around here; talk to them. Stop being xenophobes. You do not have to be the ******* like in the lore. Jade Falcons, you guys are basically the goons of the Clans. Can you attempt to converse with your trothlkin to work something out? You guys can troll me all you want now if you like or take what I am saying to heart & build on it. The choice is yours.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 28 December 2014 - 10:23 PM.

[Alecxei Malthus]

to stop the flow of water takes considerable effort, you of all people Jaroth should know that it is easier to divert the flow of water then to dam it up and exert full control. we can all see these issues, and though we can easily agree with you, there is little we can do to change the mind of the idiot, you cannot control the mob, merely keep it happy and focused on one enemy or another, the problem CGB is running into is they have too much mob and not enough targets, and while if this were the only thing to do that would be the serious problem they claim it to be, the fact is that there is plenty other things to do on the interweb, not all are here to live out their lorefilled fantasies, most are here to enjoy the game and a few are here to enjoy the lore, but none are here to be controlled, all experienced leaders can easily tell you that to control a clan with an iron grip sees rebellion faster then an american with a tea bag. ( just kidding)

[Noesis]

With freedoms comes responsibility however.

This despite whether you're unable to appreciate the very fine qualities of tea. Though of course a fully educated gentleman worth his salt will of course partake of this beverage.

This discussion did however get more interesting since the Dark Born are an organisation that enjoys flexibility and freedoms and even though being marked as Dezgra are in fact still capable of being civilised. Shame some "honourable" clans cannot claim the same?

[Alecxei Malthus]

that sir is the view of a politician, not a gentleman, or civilized freeperson, responsibility is not born from freedom but pressed forward by oppressors veiling such responsibilities that are in and of themselves nonspecific and therefore an open ended statement which allows for nearly any repression of said freedom to be thrown under the umbrella of responsibility.

[Noesis]

Alecxei, on 28 December 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

that sir is the view of a politician, not a gentleman, or civilized freeperson, responsibility is not born from freedom but pressed forward by oppressors veiling such responsibilities that are in and of themselves nonspecific and therefore an open ended statement which allows for nearly any repression of said freedom to be thrown under the umbrella of responsibility.

But the context is about political freedoms?

Despite that, does the social narrative not also suggest desired behaviour of benefit to that society as opposed to complete freedom of expression that you expressed as an observation of the "Mob effect". And is not the social narrative as apsect of the soceities culture?

To think you are completely free in a social context is simply not the case. Hence why people will fight with each other when these values are not in agreement.

So responsibility of actions and willingness to be "accountable" to the idea provided freedoms is still a part of ordered soceities make up.

If you see this as repression as opposed to progress is your view of certain material in context as you say or a sentiment of your own current experience of your social environment based on life "choices", experience, nuturing and education.

I can however see why some things might be viewed as repressive by some people in their own "culture" though, and given the security issues and actions made against citizens of certain governments in real life, this may also be a very topical area of discussion for a number of players in RL. This may however not be so apparent in other cultures, which to some extent may also adopt more social policies in support of their populace. But I have to concede it will have an influence on players thinking.

---

E.g. Freedom of expression under American constituational law (and other countries) does not mean you are free to incite riots or to encourage people to commit a criminal act. And you would be accountable to these actions if you did.

So I reiterate that with Freedoms comes responsibility.

Edited by Noesis, 29 December 2014 - 01:43 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

I love this politicking. We all know that this will end with CW and CGB keeping the truce alive, but we argue anyway. Go drama!

Btw Jaroth, are you sure they will wipe the map? From what I've heard Russ saying at last NGNG session, nothing is set in stone and nothing is about to be set in stone. Do you have some info I skipped?

[Knightcrawler]

Jaroth, unless things have changed in the last week, PGI is leaning toward *not wiping* the map. They said so in the Town Hall (with the caveat that if the Clans managed to conquer "too much," that they might reconsider), and AFAIK they've never said they would wipe.

[Kin3ticX]

I find it hilarious how one faction wants another to "allow" passage through when attack paths are completely unknown. In fact, so far most attack options have involved shallow border violations followed by wide sweeps and encirclement through the map.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 29 December 2014 - 02:23 AM.

[SickerthanSars]

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 December 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

My suggestions:

Wolves get your **** together; you guys have fractured so much it is ridiculous. Jaguars, you have the smallest touman this is true but there are Clans playing in CW that are not in the Big Four, you can offer them contracts to fight with you while retaining their identity. I saw Goliath Scorpions, Snow Ravens & Hell's Horses running around here; talk to them. Stop being xenophobes. You do not have to be the ******* like in the lore. Jade Falcons, you guys are basically the goons of the Clans. Can you attempt to converse with your trothlkin to work something out? You guys can troll me all you want now if you like or take what I am saying to heart & build on it. The choice is yours.

Despite the "fracturing" of clan wolf, the clan wolf galaxies have continued to take planets from the IS, and hold onto them. Just wanted to point that out. Also have you looked at the IS CW fourms? The clans as a whole and across the board are far and above more unified than any of the IS factions. Apart from the very early stages, there havent really been a lot of clan vs clan fighting which is a good thing to remember come march.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Mordin Ashe, on 29 December 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

I love this politicking. We all know that this will end with CW and CGB keeping the truce alive, but we argue anyway. Go drama! Btw Jaroth, are you sure they will wipe the map? From what I've heard Russ saying at last NGNG session, nothing is set in stone and nothing is about to be set in stone. Do you have some info I skipped?

That is what I was told early on. If you guys heard it from Russ directly in the Town Hall, then I stand corrected.

@Noesis could we get this back on track please?

@Kin3ticX You do realize that the proposal in question was made by a merc unit?

[Mordin Ashe]

Agreed with Jaroth, Kin3ticX. It was a merc unit, albeit a big one, that made this proposal. Eventually we are getting to the same core problem of most CW interclan issues. That is one unit/group making decisions that are generalized and considered a faction-wide decision, which it clearly is not. Hard to blame people for doing it but it does not change a bit on that it is a wrong thing to do.

[IraqiWalker]

Noesis, on 28 December 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

With freedoms comes responsibility however.

This despite whether you're unable to appreciate the very fine qualities of tea. Though of course a fully educated gentleman worth his salt will of course partake of this beverage.

This discussion did however get more interesting since the Dark Born are an organisation that enjoys flexibility and freedoms and even though being marked as Dezgra are in fact still capable of being civilised. Shame some "honourable" clans cannot claim the same?

Come to Davion, Our mech cockpits come pre-assembled with built in tea makers. I highly doubt you will find another faction that truly appreciates tea like we do.

As for freedom. That is true. Freedom bears great responsibility, and your example of the first amendment is correct.

The first amendment protects your right to say, and do things, but it does not protect you from repercussions. It allows you to do them. What happens afterwards is usually outside it's purview.

[LegoPirate]

IraqiWalker, on 29 December 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

The first amendment protects your right to say, and do things, but it does not protect you from repercussions. It allows you to do them. What happens afterwards is usually outside it's purview.

this is false, part of the protection of freedom of speech is protection from persecution because of said speech.

however, freedom of speech only applies to the government. a private establishment can do whatever it wants. thats why the KKK isnt technically illegal, they just dont/cant get any government money.

Kin3ticX, on 29 December 2014 - 02:16 AM, said:

I find it hilarious how one faction wants another to "allow" passage through when attack paths are completely unknown. In fact, so far most attack options have involved shallow border violations followed by wide sweeps and encirclement through the map.

lets be perfectly clear here, our other option would be to keep chewing through FRR (which we are doing at quite the pace) until we hit the steiner border and then attempt to reach you guys that way. if we were successful, we'd effectively cut wolf off from both steiner and frr attack routes, meaning theyd only be able to attack cgb or cjf. i wonder how that would go.

oh, and at most we would need to eat through about 7 planets before we'd get a viable border with cjf if they were to let us. a week of passage for ensuring we dont potentially cut off their advance route seems pretty fair to me.

Edited by LegoPirate, 29 December 2014 - 03:59 AM.

[Noesis]

Jaroth Corbett, on 29 December 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

@Noesis could we get this back on track please?

I believe that more tea will help with efforts to sustain more "relaxed" relations amongst the factions. And I believe it would also help if more people could appreciate its social empowering properties. For instance Clan Wolf units might be more aggreable to suggestions about allowing CGB members to travel accross borders if they learnt to sit down and have a cup of tea together to better understand the aims involved? Which is a more civilised approach to the topic material in my view.

The tea campaign will continue then as an effort to allow more sustainable social relations within the factions. In fact we will be smuggling various herbal infused products around the IS to help with these very interests. Croquet game sets will be awarded to those organisations more receptive to helping sustain constructive social narratives with each other as a recognition of their efforts with diplomacy to achieve their aims.

As such the first Croquet set will be delivered to the MS alliance in recognition of their efforts to educate certain elements of this community about the importance of the social narrative and respecting others.

[Noesis]

LegoPirate, on 29 December 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

this is false, part of the protection of freedom of speech is protection from persecution because of said speech.

Not entirely true:

The court handed down its decision in "Brandenburg v. Ohio" (1969), expressly overruling "Whitney v. California". Now the Supreme Court refers to the right to speak openly of violent action and revolution in broad terms:

"[Our] decisions have fashioned the principle that the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not allow a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or cause such action".

---

Also libel and slander are not relevant legal procedings where you live, these are not just government related and can be associated to individual protections? (Though this may be treated differently in various countries due to equal rights considerations as to whether it is treated in the context of a criminal action).

There are other examples of implications where you are responsible for what you express having repercussions in law, this before the more obvious implications of the ethincal and moral values of what you do say having a basis on how you will be viewed, even if protected by law. So those implcations are still relevant to a process of diplomacy based on how you represent things irrespective of whether legal action is relevant.

Maybe akin to the Geneva convention the Clans should write up a document to help them relate in times of war to avoid unecessary casualties with expressed views unrelated to the actual game efforts? Anyone wish to pen the MWO Kerensky convention?

Edited by Noesis, 29 December 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[Naglinator]

Pretty sure freebirth dezgras don't get legal rights....

[Noesis]

Naglinator, on 29 December 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Pretty sure freebirth dezgras don't get legal rights....

lol

[LegoPirate]

Noesis, on 29 December 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

stuff

only if they have a reasonable belief that those words would actually cause "lawless action", which is to say 99% of it doesnt apply here.