163 replies to this topic

[Undead Bane]

l33tworks, on 17 July 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Nope I am sure there there is a reasonable chunk of people that want it done right but not at the expense of delaying the game.

And I don't think it bothers them the way it bothers you. You see it a core.fundamental aspect of the game they see it as something to be tweaked.

Here my take on it. It depends on the mech and whether its running our not..in my opinion running is defined if both feet leave the ground at the same time.

A humanoid bipedal design like the atlas, unless the legs stretch, either the hips have to.sway or the .whole body has.to sway. An atlas does not run.

Designs like the mad cat can run without swaying as both feet leave the ground and the b mech is v effectively airborne. If it uses its feet/toes for forward thrust.

Hm. Well, animation does concern me. It's not that I won't play the game, if it has wrong animations, but it will break my experience for sure.
Anyway.

I'm not speaking about forward thrust, i'm speaking about the way for mech not to fall down when trying to step.

The best example of what i mean you can get, if you look at the latest video and try to walk like a mech. You won't be able to do so, but try - it's a funny experience.

And also, why i am so concerned: this is a small thing, that you may not consciously notice, but your brain will, and it does make the feeling of "something strange happening". The effect is quite similar to "uncanny valley" effect.
An example from music: if a mix is lacking something, only a professional soundman can tell, what is wrong. An ordinary listner will just say, that "this song aint cool", but will never specify correctly why.
This small animation gap is quite alike.

The poll i made for the only purpose if there are many people, who don't feel this movement is right.


Edit: oh, and about delaying the game... For sure, if this can cause a delay - let it stay like this. But what I hope for is that it won't stay like this forever.

Edited by Undead Bane, 17 July 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[Undead Bane]

For non-humanoid mech (like Catapult or Timberwolf) animation idea look at this:


The point to look at is how the chicken places it's foot on the ground. When it walks slowly, the feet are almost forming a line. When it runs, they don move that close to the center - no need for that while running.

[l33tworks]

Undead Bane, on 17 July 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Hm. Well, animation does concern me. It's not that I won't play the game, if it has wrong animations, but it will break my experience for sure.
Anyway.

I'm not speaking about forward thrust, i'm speaking about the way for mech not to fall down when trying to step.

The best example of what i mean you can get, if you look at the latest video and try to walk like a mech. You won't be able to do so, but try - it's a funny experience.

And also, why i am so concerned: this is a small thing, that you may not consciously notice, but your brain will, and it does make the feeling of "something strange happening". The effect is quite similar to "uncanny valley" effect.
An example from music: if a mix is lacking something, only a professional soundman can tell, what is wrong. An ordinary listner will just say, that "this song aint cool", but will never specify correctly why.
This small animation gap is quite alike.

The poll i made for the only purpose if there are many people, who don't feel this movement is right.


Edit: oh, and about delaying the game... For sure, if this can cause a delay - let it stay like this. But what I hope for is that it won't stay like this forever.

I don't see how you can.consider one without the other. Accelerating forward is part of the waling process you need to.push back on.the ground for this to happen. If you dont you won't move I.am saying this can be done with the toes or feet wheen running and the mech.does not need to have the motions you describe. Nor will it fall over. When its walking I.said, the mech does need to sway or, lean if, not its hips its body.

I am completely aware of what you are saying. I am.very sensitive to this. I get that feeling a lot with racing games when the physics are off.

[Undead Bane]

l33tworks, on 17 July 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

I don't see how you can.consider one without the other. Accelerating forward is part of the waling process you need to.push back on.the ground for this to happen. If you dont you won't move I.am saying this can be done with the toes or feet wheen running and the mech.does not need to have the motions you describe. Nor will it fall over. When its walking I.said, the mech does need to sway or, lean if, not its hips its body.

I am completely aware of what you are saying. I am.very sensitive to this. I get that feeling a lot with racing games when the physics are off.

Well, sorry, just misread you then. But let me correct you a bit.
From a point of view of CCM movement, the higher forward movement velocity is, the lower swaying is (or the smaller is the distance a foot travels towards the center line of a mech during the step). The reason is super simple - while running you spend less time "standing" on the leg (well, a bit more complicated, but just the general idea), so the impulse, produced during the step is to compensate gravity momentum also for a lower amount of time.
So, the side to side pelvis turning (resulting in mech's swaying) or moving feet towards the CCM line remains (the latter is preferrable), but becomes very subtle. I actually posted a Mad Cat/Timberwolf gif at the main post as an illustration. This is valid for both humanoid and non-humanoid designs, actually.

And again, sorry for misunderstanding, at first, the only idea i got from your reply was only "no swaying for chicken-like mechs at all", that's also why I posted a chicken video

Edited by Undead Bane, 17 July 2012 - 04:27 PM.

[Undead Bane]

Unfortunately, poll votes do not bump the topic, and I was foolish enough not to create the poll from start. So, I will have to bump it, would really like to see at least 100 ppl having voted the poll. Sorry for the bump =)

[Undead Bane]

One more bump (100 of voters to be reached!)

[Undead Bane]

Another bumpee for votes collection

[Tincan Nightmare]

Honestly watching all the MWO videos I don't have a problem with the way the mechs move. They give you a feel of a lumbering powerful machine, instead of a person walking in a suit. Maybe that isn't 'realistic' but it looks just fine to me, and mostly watching the videos I tend to lose myself in the action and fighting and honeslty don't think about 'wow the Centurions hips are not moving right.' And you shouldn't bump your own thread so much, let it stand or die on its own.

[Undead Bane]

Well, as i've written - i was stupid enough not to add a poll from start and added it only when the post already had 6 pages. And now, unfortunately, the poll votes do not bump the topic.
When i collect around 100 votes - i will let it die.

And about something wrong - well, when moving fast it is almost ok, but when mechs start to walk slowly the problem rises.

[Lettuce Prey]

this DOES point out a problem that the pen and paper version of the game solved quite nicely.

[Undead Bane]

Lettuce Prey, on 19 July 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

this DOES point out a problem that the pen and paper version of the game solved quite nicely.

Ehm, you mean TT?

[bpphantom]

I'd rather see the slight sway a-la MW4, but that might require a LOT of work in which case I'm quite content with the in game videos we've seen. I'd actually like to see a current in-game video released that shows a cockpit view of gradual acceleration so we can see the extra sway at the beginning fading to a faint sway at moderate to top speed.

[Lexxen]

BaneReIIiK, on 27 June 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

He's right. From this picture you can see that it's not quite right. Wait...what...

I was quite interested in reading a serious post and then this came about. I can't stop laughing now.

[Undead Bane]

bpphantom, on 19 July 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

I'd rather see the slight sway a-la MW4, but that might require a LOT of work in which case I'm quite content with the in game videos we've seen. I'd actually like to see a current in-game video released that shows a cockpit view of gradual acceleration so we can see the extra sway at the beginning fading to a faint sway at moderate to top speed.

Well, there already is a number of them.
Catapult:
http://mwomercs.com/...deo/sWBOIh078aY
Atlas:
http://mwomercs.com/...deo/YXZ7HKpaEHc

No swaying, at all.

By the way, I have checked both MW3 and MW4 videos - swayind was present, but noone still puked....

And regarding the work - yeah, probably it will take quite some, as lots of animations have to be updated. Hopefully, this will be changed... someday.
But what I suspect, nothing is more constant than temporary things...

Edited by Undead Bane, 19 July 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Undead Bane]

thontor, on 19 July 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

After watching multiple videos, I think that MWO mech movement looks fine.. and i do think there's some swaying, but it's very subtle..

They arent nearly as bad as the MWLL videos i've seen... where it looks like the upper part of the mech is on rails

1. MW:LL animation = torsos on rails (+always moonwalking)
2. MW2/MWO animation = torsos on rails on hills (+sometimes moonwalking)
3. ???
4. PROFIT!

J/K =)

Also, I never told that it is as horrible as MW:LL, but veeery close to that.

Edited by Undead Bane, 19 July 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Scytale]

I actually prefer it this way, more than how it was in Mechwarrior 4. The mechs seem a bit more inscrutable this way - I think of them not as armoured humans, with the same vulnerabilities we have (not that you're saying this), but as enormous, almost unknowable machines, walking this way. I think it'll actually enhance my experience with it.

[Undead Bane]

Scytale, on 19 July 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I actually prefer it this way, more than how it was in Mechwarrior 4. The mechs seem a bit more inscrutable this way - I think of them not as armoured humans, with the same vulnerabilities we have (not that you're saying this), but as enormous, almost unknowable machines, walking this way. I think it'll actually enhance my experience with it.

Well, I see your point, to a certain degree.

However, for me such movement makes mechs look like they have no weight at all, just floating strangely.

It's like playing a car simulator (even arcade), where car moves without regard to existence of wheels, like turns VERY wrong (e.g. around the center of it) or moves diagonally.

Edited by Undead Bane, 19 July 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Curbstomper]

The solution I came up with was pretty simple, internal counterweight to counter the necessary sway, to make aiming easier.

[Undead Bane]

Curbstomper, on 19 July 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

The solution I came up with was pretty simple, internal counterweight to counter the necessary sway, to make aiming easier.

Well, yeah, that can be (theoretically) used, however there are certain limitations to that solution.
1. The mass moved must be quite big, very close to the weight of the chasis around that (physical limitation)
2. Either range of movement of such mass should be long (to accelerate), or it must accelerate VERY fast, but deceleration should be fast (hit) at any variant => mech like that will sound like it has a blacksmith with BIG anvil working inside. (physical limitation again)
3. No such thing described in canon, only gyros (canon limitation, though close to Aragorn's pants)
4. Walking will look very different with such solution, as mass transfer from leg to leg is performed differently (physical limitation again). Like it's in this video (only almost without sway):

[Undead Bane]

Sorry guys... After seeing this video with Jenner:



on whoose wide-pelvis figure animation looks super weird I just could not resist and bumped the topic...

How a mech like that should move you can also look in this JJ compilation video from MW4 (just look at any mech with human-like legs):