163 replies to this topic

[Outrider01]

Lucky Strongarm, on 27 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Sweet kicks on that droid.

The future may not be bright for humanity, but, damn it's gonna be funky!

[Morang]

cinco, on 27 June 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

the entire structure of the mech doesn't resemble humans one bit. it has no muscle

It HAS muscle. One of the key design features of the BattleMechs is the use of contracting myomer attached to internal structure bones to move. Fusion engine provides electrical power fed to the myomer strands under control of actuators and DI computer.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

W4rl0ck, on 27 June 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

From what I have seen only the outer cockpit is moving, but your head is still. To make it more realistic your head would have to move more and the cockpit would be still relative to your head... even more if your mech accelerates or breaks. But when I think about that I'd probably barf on the keyboard after a few matches.

The moving cockpit is just there to give you some feedback about your movement. I don't think it has to be a physically hundred percent correct simulation of the mech's movement.

Yeah dunno if Im gonna be playing a game where Im barfing every two or three matches

Fugu, on 27 June 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

We seem to have quite a lot of engineers around here. Yesterday it was all about how an Atlas could possibly only weigh 100 metric tons.
Of course applying logic doesn't quite work for a game about giant BattleMechs.

But besides that, it's always an interesting read. Carry on.

Fugu, your sig's missiles look backwards - the fire is ahead of what looks like the missiles. Other than that thats really cool lol

[Tekkiller]

Dennis de Koning, on 27 June 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

Believe it or not, there was a lot of discussion and research that went into the animation of the 'Mechs.
Many (most) 'Mechs are humanoid and so scaling cues alone are not enough to make a 'Mech look less like an environmental suit than a giant walking tank. The more animation looks and feels like natural human movement, the harder it is to suspend belief. We wanted the 'Mechs to look like machines, if this means that it has a stiffer gate, then so be it. Also, on a note of balance from the initial post; sway, for the purpose of balance is lessened the faster one moves. In other words, the slower you walk, the more sway is necessary for you to keep balanced. When running (or walking at 60kph), you (and/or a 30-100t 'Mech) will have almost no sway at all; that extra energy will be converted into forward motion instead.
As for the cockpit movement: It is attached to the 'Mech and therefore the movement is a realistic translation. This is necessary because the (exterior) architecture of some 'Mechs is visible from within the cockpit ie, Hunchback, Dragon and others coming down the pipe. Imagine the effects that more sway would have on a users aiming and desire not to puke.

Thank you. I like the movement and I especially like the cockpit movement. It gives you the feeling of being shaken about in the cockpit of a 100 ton machine as it stomps across a planet, which is, in fact, precisely what we pretend to be doing!!!

Screw this toggle nonsense.

[Lockon StratosII]

W4rl0ck, on 27 June 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

From what I have seen only the outer cockpit is moving, but your head is still. To make it more realistic your head would have to move more and the cockpit would be still relative to your head... even more if your mech accelerates or breaks. But when I think about that I'd probably barf on the keyboard after a few matches.

The moving cockpit is just there to give you some feedback about your movement. I don't think it has to be a physically hundred percent correct simulation of the mech's movement.

I think there should be "head" moving animation. First time when I watched the gameplay video, it was exactly that that seemed odd to me. No matter how sophisticated gyro and other balance systems in mech are, there is bound to be some head sway in there simply for the fact that you are standing on top of the 20-40-100t of mass which center of gravity is moving with each step. For me the HUD and cockpit movement as it is look very odd and unrealistic ( yea I know we are debating realism in a mech game...) and was the first things I noticed. Just my 0.02$

And for the original topic of mech movement, yes it looks wrong at least for a slow speed animation where I agree that there should be some side to side movement for the sake of moving center of mass into stable point but for bigger speeds that shouldn't be such big of a problem as long as it's one directional movement. Even we (humans) aren't completely stable during walking/running. I remember someone on my university comparing human walk to a series of controlled falls, implying that our center of mass isn't always within bounds of stability ( try to spontaneously freeze in the middle of your step and see what will happen)

[Vengeance1]

Canned Heat, on 27 June 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

DARPA and Boston Dynamics are working on some amazing things now...granted MWO takes place far into the future and we cant compare now.

Man, this is officially now the most awesome thing I have ever seen.... and the music just makes it so much better

[Lomack]

I can see that the mech's should move more realistically and that it would help the realism of the game. The upper body could simply compensate for the CCM adjustments. But the hips should rise up on the opposing side before the step takes place.

The hip on the side of the mech that is staying on the ground could easily have a hydrolic (myofibril unit) in it that raised the torso up as the stepping leg moved forward (or backward). The torso could have a reversed feature to compensate so the upper body (where all the guns are located) didn't experience significant movement with each step and make targeting simpler. But then we would see the CCM (hips) move up and down more with each step and a compression of sorts occure in the lower torso to keep the upper torso stable.

The downside is I am unsure how difficult it would be for PGI to re-design this portion of the animation for realism. If we are talking about months of animation work to redo this it may just be something we have to live with till they come out with version 2.0 a year or so from now. If its a relatively simple fix that would take some wireframe adjustments of an hour per mech or so, then I say do it. I can hold off a day or 2 on the game to add more realism.

Edit: I want to walk down the street with the PETMan. I hope those Boston Dynamics people take it out for walks around town.

Edited by Lomack, 27 June 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Hikaru]

User experience trumps all.

I love the attention to realism, but we are not trying to make mechs that work physically. We are making a mech shooting game.

Players are divorced from the kinetic feel of walking, running, swaying. This disconnect is why motion sickness from FPS games is a real concern and limiting factor. No matter what the animation looks like, the primary concern should be the user experience.

[I Am Sancho]

I think this thread is becoming a master's thesis.

[Multitallented]

Movement animations were a huge part of mechwarrior for me. Being able to see the 3-D model of my enemy or my own mech was really nice, and I found myself watching that model a lot when I wasn't trying to line up a shot.

That said, I hope they improve the running/walking animations.

[zer0imh]

mechs have muscle... myomer.


best realistic mech movement/run/walk/jump.... MechWarrior4 period.

they even used in-game footage for cutscenes because it looks natural/realistic.


it looks natural(torsos tilting a little bit left and right for balance) not floating/always upright torso.

minimal slide(moonwalk) of feet on the ground. feels like the feet has real grip on the ground.

upon landing the mech feels his weight and it uses its hands to stabilize the landing.

when the mech is hit by enemy fire, it's very hard to make a stable aim which is good/realistic.

light mechs have short+fast strides (which is correct because they are small and they are traveling fast)

running(long+slow strides) animation/movement is different from walking(short+slow or fast strides) animation/movement


played mw1,mw2clans, mw2mercs, mw3, mw4vengeance mw4mercs.



give me MW4 with DX11 graphics and physx support.... i'll be a happy mechwarrior

Edited by zer0imh, 27 June 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Undead Bane]

Hikaru, on 27 June 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

User experience trumps all.

I love the attention to realism, but we are not trying to make mechs that work physically. We are making a mech shooting game.

Players are divorced from the kinetic feel of walking, running, swaying. This disconnect is why motion sickness from FPS games is a real concern and limiting factor. No matter what the animation looks like, the primary concern should be the user experience.

But player's experience is what it is all about. On one side - motion sickness. On the other - the feeling, that you are shooting mechs, not plastic dolls.
Let me give an example from my hobby - sound mixing/mastering. If you make something wrong, only another soundman will tell you "hey, here you have cut to much low-end freqs from guitars" (like i did here about side-to-side movement), but a normal listner will just feel, that your song "aint sounding cool".
And again, swaying looks like a small thing, but plays quite a role in our perception. A sort of "uncanny valley" thing, "something is wrong".

I Am Sancho, on 27 June 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I think this thread is becoming a master's thesis.

rofl, actually, the pictures were taken from the intro of my master's draft

Lucky Strongarm, on 27 June 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

I'm just glad to hear you're not disabled!

Ehm, sorry for offence and tx for concern! Didn't read the question right then.

Edited by Undead Bane, 27 June 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Grimarch]

So we are comparing our knowledge of physics and tech in a world of 2012 against 1000 years of development of machines. Thin kabout it thats comparing a horse and cart with a car and a car drives too smoothly.....

[Darksteps]

There was too much to read in the OP, but did he also state that when something large and heavy walks, the hip dips down on the striding leg. If you watch the original Jurassic Park and pay attention to the animation of the TRex walking, his hip dips a little as his knees bend when the brunt of his weight lands on the stride leg. The MWLL mechs looked like they were weightless as there was zero weight translation animation.

"Thin kabout it thats comparing a horse and cart with a car and a car drives too smoothly"

But the basic principles are still there from the horse and buggy.

Edited by Darksteps, 27 June 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Undead Bane]

Grimarch, on 27 June 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

So we are comparing our knowledge of physics and tech in a world of 2012 against 1000 years of development of machines. Thin kabout it thats comparing a horse and cart with a car and a car drives too smoothly.....

Well, that's not entirely correct. Aside from technological decay in the universe by that time, the physics i was talking about here is the very basics - gravity, momentums, a bit of dynamics (innertia). Actually, you normally get this in school.
So, if mechs don't have a sort of anti-gravity device inside (and they obviously don't), the idea about their movement remains pretty much the same.

Edited by Undead Bane, 27 June 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[Romulus Stahl]

Undead Bane, on 27 June 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

rofl, actually, the pictures were taken from the intro of my master's draft

Your time would be better suited working on the draft vs. trying to apply existing tech and understanding to a computer game based on a hex map board game developed by some high school kids using Japanese cartoons models.

Walking = a controlled fall

Edited by Romulus Stahl, 27 June 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[Undead Bane]

Romulus Stahl, on 27 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Your time would be better suited working on the draft vs. trying to apply existing tech and understanding to a computer game based on a hex map board game developed by some high school kids using Japanese cartoons models.

Well, actually i spend time on tonns of things, engineering, programming, sound editing, drums and so on. And, btw, master's here, in Russia, is almost entirely formal, so i mostly made it for my own self-development and will most likely never be finished (though completely written) in this country, as noone gives a f... Well, that's entirely offtopic. BUT.
These activities are jobs, sort of. Jobs that i do like, but still, that require quite some effort to be put in. And gaming is a pure hobby - relaxation. So, as i don't have anything to play in right now, i'd like to spend equal time on trying to make the game i've been (all of us, actually) waiting for so long a bit better experience, to have a better relax when i can actually play it

Edited by Undead Bane, 27 June 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[Noob Weapons]

Looks fine to me. I'll attribute anything that looks different to technology 1000 years ahead of me.

Edited by Noob Weapons, 27 June 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[zer0imh]

technology has no relation with realistic movement and physics. (battletech universe)

[ScientificMethod]

Great thread, I love when people actually get into the details of this stuff.

As to the people that don't care... Why are you here? You'll get your pew pew once Aug 7th comes around. Although I must add that most technological advancements we've made have a basis in science fiction