163 replies to this topic

[Hikaru]

I care. I *don't* want it to resemble the OP's suggestion because it will actually make it a much worse gameplay experience.

FPS + ridiculous amounts of head bobbing = vomitorium.

Look at the released videos. Look at the massive amounts of vibration seen from the visibile 'mech chassis upon running, jumping, landing. And note how the HUD does not move. Now try and imagine the HUD and POV locked to the 'mech body. A lot of people wouldn't be able to play for more than a few minutes.

If you want to go all lore: pilots conned their 'mechs with helmets that altered their propioception to include the 'mech. The 'mech's sensors gave the pilot their sense of balance, and the helmets were integral to the full movement feedback loop. We don't have that. We have the visual display as the only sort of feedback mechanism. And when you have incongruous visual elements -- crazy amounts of bobbing compared to what your body is feeling -- you're not going to get an accurate feel for your 'mech.

[Tal Kath Naabal]

So true about tech and sci-fi, cellphone anyone?

I love that someone else noticed this as well as me. Honestly I don't think modifying the movement animations would take too long, and I'm a little confused on why so many people are upset at this suggestion. The Devs are never going to waste time and effort on something that will make the game LESS fun for anyone. So just let anyone who wants to speculate on the kinematics of giant robots do so, no need to insinuate that what they are discussing is pointless or stupid. It's just open discussion (isn't that what a forum is?)

Actually I think at this point modifying the walk animations and getting realistic looking animations at variable speed shouldn't be that hard for the engine to handle. (look at BF3's animation blending.)

Anyway Great OP, I'd love to see a mechs that looked like they weighted a bit more and think that it could be done with out all the drawback to gameplay that you might think would be involved.

[zer0imh]

did anybody mentioned the neurohelmet? the essential equipment used by mechwarriors.

it is possible to pilot a mech because of the neurohelmet. without it, it will be vomit galore.

used also to control the posture and balance of mechs, directly interconnected to the gyros of the mech.

it's like walking or running in real life. even though your body makes rapid movement, we don't get confused when running, we still see the road as very stable.

like the VR of dslr Lenses

Edited by zer0imh, 27 June 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[BarHaid]

zer0imh, on 27 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

did anybody mentioned the neurohelmet? the essential equipment used by mechwarriors.

it is possible to pilot a mech because of the neurohelmet. without it, it will be vomit galore.

used also to control the posture and balance of mechs, directly interconnected to the gyros of the mech.

it's like walking or running in real life. even though your body makes rapid movement, we don't get confused when running, we still see the road as very stable.

like the VR of dslr Lenses

Hey, I think we have a "No-Prize" here! The neurohelmet is what makes the mech seem to move around us while the outside world stays stable! Excellent rationalizing job there.

[TLBFestus]

[quote name='Undead Bane' timestamp='1340812144' post='468173']




Sure thing, i did. As i've said, i'm really a bipedal machines designer The problem is, that to have gyro to stabilize your machine completely it must be VERY big and heavy. So in mechs gyros are mostly used to compensate dynamic loads, not static ones.
BTW, in real life bypedal gyros are not used yet exactly because of their heaviness.[/quote]

However, since we are engaging in a discussion about a made up universe, and maybe the lore never fully explains the full nature of the stabilizing mechanism of mechs, wouldn't it be possible for the gyros to be smaller in diameter, spinning at a ultra-high speeds and made up of a super dense material?

I was going to suggest neutronium, but that stuff is HEAVY.

[quote name=' " [url="http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=47860"]http://boards.straig...ead.php?t=47860[/url]" ] neutronium is approximately 10[/color][sup]15[/sup][color=#000000] times as dense as water. One cubic centimeter of water weighs one gram. Once cubic centimeter of neutronium would weigh 10[/color][sup]15[/sup][color=#000000] grams' date=' or about 165 tons. You best do those earlobe exercises. [/quote']

Now, they also expalin how this stuff would bascially be unstable and blow up in your face, but it's a made up universe, so I'm going with the idea that they learned how to stabilize it. There, we have small, super dense, ultra-fast spinning gyros made up of a neutronium-transparent aluminum alloy (Star Trek reference here, and look.... that is coming true: [url="http://dornob.com/transparent-aluminum-glass-like-see-through-metal/"]http://dornob.com/transparent-aluminum-glass-like-see-through-metal/[/url] ) . I also think that the estimate above could be "light", just as a disclaimer.

Edited by TLBFestus, 28 June 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[grimzod]

Irreverence, on 27 June 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Firstly, too much nit-picking. But very good analysis.

Secondly, most robots, especially big ones do not sway left and right when they walk. A mech would "lumber" more than sway. It may lean left or right depending on which foot is in the air due to gravity. You could force a robot to sway but it really wouldn't serve any purpose in this case. Humans sway because of hips but also because of our spine that is composed of many segments of small bones. We have more freedom of movement, robots do not. Robots are mechanical so they move in a mechanical way.

We have no 13 meter tall combat robots today. Please, when were trying to promote suspension of disbelief by asking for realistic movement in a game about 3049 mechs, don't bother with our robots do this so in the fake future robots won't do that.

BlindProphet, on 27 June 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Ok going to point out that Mech Gyro's in BT, are large, and heavy. They're also more advanced than our own current technology level. Consider for a moment they're also running fairly small, self contained, safe fusion power plants to run these things as an example

Yep.

Undead Bane, on 27 June 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Heh, very funny. "Somewhat" meant that the main type of bipedal machines i'm currently designing is exoskeleton, and it has way less concerns about the actual balancing. But I also participated in creation of an autonomous stand, that was created exactly to test, how the balance issues affect the walking machine.

As for the second part of your reply, here you go: http://en.wikipedia..../Verisimilitude
And, aside from that, the main thing, that may raise questions about JJs is... FUEL, not the landing dynamics. In CBT, JJs are not only used to jump, but also to compensate vertical velocity at landing, otherwise pilot completely ruins the mech and, possibly, himself.

Mech Jump Jets dont use FUEL. Within an atmosphere the compressed atmospheric gasses from outside the mech keep them stocked with reaction masses indefinitely. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Jet Worry about running out in a vacuum only.

[grimzod]

Morang, on 27 June 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

It HAS muscle. One of the key design features of the BattleMechs is the use of contracting myomer attached to internal structure bones to move. Fusion engine provides electrical power fed to the myomer strands under control of actuators and DI computer.

When they finally READ about myomer I will be content. The entire mech relies on a few important (fake/undeveloped) technologies (fusion power and diamond aligned layered armor being only two of them) with Electrically motivated muscle fibers being another.

[Undead Bane]

TLBFestus, on 28 June 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

However, since we are engaging in a discussion about a made up universe, and maybe the lore never fully explains the full nature of the stabilizing mechanism of mechs, wouldn't it be possible for the gyros to be smaller in diameter, spinning at a ultra-high speeds and made up of a super dense material?

I was going to suggest neutronium, but that stuff is HEAVY.



Now, they also expalin how this stuff would bascially be unstable and blow up in your face, but it's a made up universe, so I'm going with the idea that they learned how to stabilize it. There, we have small, super dense, ultra-fast spinning gyros made up of a neutronium-transparent aluminum alloy (Star Trek reference here, and look.... that is coming true: http://dornob.com/tr...-through-metal/ ) . I also think that the estimate above could be "light", just as a disclaimer.

Sorry, but still no. Even if the gyro would be super-duper-mega heavy + rotating at 1mil rpm, it still would not allow the mech to stand absolutely upright on one foot.
Gravity will just create a momentum and make the gyro (and mech with it) precess, like shown in a video with gyro i've posted here.

Here is the video again. Start looking at 1:47, that's where the situation with CM off the supporting area, that is described in initial post:


The main idea of a massive gyro is compensation of dynamic loads, like hits, steps (meaning the loads, produced from foot's impact with the ground). They, unfortunately, cannot compensate static ones.

[syngyne]

Hikaru, on 27 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

FPS + ridiculous amounts of head bobbing = vomitorium.

I can see that happening with something like the Hunchback, it's going all over the place. How would you do with something like this though:



Start at 1:05. He starts out walking, and then gets up into a run. There's vertical bob (and a little bit of side-to-side, but you can't see it in the video), but it's not all over the place.

[Undead Bane]

grimzod, on 28 June 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

We have no 13 meter tall combat robots today. Please, when were trying to promote suspension of disbelief by asking for realistic movement in a game about 3049 mechs, don't bother with our robots do this so in the fake future robots won't do that.

Ok, here i go again. If these robots don't have an anti-gravity device (if they do according to canon - point it to me pls ) then they will still be affected by gravity, any technology (again, other than anti-gravity) cannot help them to surpass it.

A very simple example: take a thick straw. While it is straight, you can make it stand on it's but end. But if you bend it in, say, half, for better demonstration, whatever you do, you won't make it stand.

[Undead Bane]

syngyne, on 28 June 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

I can see that happening with something like the Hunchback, it's going all over the place. How would you do with something like this though:



Start at 1:05. He starts out walking, and then gets up into a run. There's vertical bob (and a little bit of side-to-side, but you can't see it in the video), but it's not all over the place.

Yeah!

Actually, the faster you run, the less swaying will be.

And also, i have a question to people, who think they can possibly get sick from swaying. What if not your entire view, but only the cockpit in your sight (not ground, trees, other mechs) moves aroung up-down and left-right a bit? Will it still make you sick?..

[GHQCommander]

BlindProphet, on 27 June 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Have you taken into account that Mechs have gyroscopic stabilizers which are there to keep mechs balanced?

Gyroscopes maintain balance in mechs when under fire do they not. I think what your suggesting a gyro does is to lift the side of the mech that does not have a foot on the ground and defy gravity.

I agree with the OP.

Who never mentioned the condition of the machine when under fire. At the point of sway or foot off the ground, an LRM strike would knock it too the ground easily. In a realistic world, mechs would have a simple software that helps the pilot to fire at the right time to knock another mech off its feet. Your talking basic maths to predict movement and fire at the right time.

Obviously such a thing in canon would sound silly and it is another area not covered in canon to keep things simple.

Edited by GHQCommander, 28 June 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[syngyne]

I could honestly do without any side-to-side movement. It's mainly a little bit of vertical movement I would like to see.

[BduSlammer]

watching the atlas move the hips moved side to side as the legs moved

[Durahl]

PETMAN is pretty much doing the exact opposite of what the OP suggested it should look like.
He doesn't move it's center of gravity towards the leg touching the ground but rather to the one in the air.

I have no idea why Boston Dynamics choose to do it this way but it seems to be working quite well =)

[Undead Bane]

Durahl, on 28 June 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

PETMAN is pretty much doing the exact opposite of what the OP suggested it should look like.
He doesn't move it's center of gravity towards the leg touching the ground but rather to the one in the air.

I have no idea why Boston Dynamics choose to do it this way but it seems to be working quite well =)

Not exactly so. Petman utilizes slightly more complicated pattern of movement, that is more like a living human would move.
First phase (VERY, VERY-VERY short one, but enough to compensate and overcome gravity momentum), when it starts to lift a leg from the ground, it sends an impulse towards the supporting leg. After this, he starts to move his entire body towards a moving leg, tranferring the mass to it as it falls down. And it's synced very well.

Actually, if you look at the phase of movement pictures i've posted, what you see as a movement towards the leg in the air is the entire movement the chasis does in steps 2 to 4.

You just can't lift a leg without unloading it (that is what the movement i described also does), otherwise it will still be a supporting.

Edited by Undead Bane, 28 June 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Undead Bane]

BduSlammer, on 28 June 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

watching the atlas move the hips moved side to side as the legs moved

Have just re-watched this: http://mwomercs.com/...deo/W6wYb6TNFNk

Didn't find any pelvis rotation/hip movement from side to side... Honestly, i did my best.
All the mechs do is moving up and down, not falling to the side somehow.

Edited by Undead Bane, 28 June 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[BarHaid]

Undead Bane, on 28 June 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

And also, i have a question to people, who think they can possibly get sick from swaying. What if not your entire view, but only the cockpit in your sight (not ground, trees, other mechs) moves aroung up-down and left-right a bit? Will it still make you sick?..

Well, that's what they've got now, isn't it? The cockpit bobs around, but the terrain doesn't.

[Waverider]

Undead Bane, on 28 June 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Have just re-watched this: http://mwomercs.com/...deo/W6wYb6TNFNk

Didn't find any pelvis rotation/hip movement from side to side... Honestly, i did my best.
All the mechs do is moving up and down, not falling to the side somehow.

I liked the legs movement of the Catapult @2:42. The feet and the legs seem to follow the terrain and the Mechs have a subtle jingle, Looks and feels ok to my eyes. Lets see how it feels in your and mine screen when open beta starts. I do not like to drive huge robot warriors that looks like stiff action figures. They must swing a little.

[Waverider]

I still thinks that the key foor all "scale" sensation is at the falling Mech! They still not looking massive tonnage giant walking tanks falling... The falls just #$% now. All falling Mech must look epic like a building being demolished, looks slow but it is not, makes a lot of powder debris when hit the ground. I just do not know how they could do it.