141 replies to this topic

[Vassago Rain]

Tolkien, on 18 December 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

The article makes some good points, but to be fair to PGI it has only been 2 years of delays, not 3. PGI had told us CW was coming 5 different times over that two year window and while I'm glad it's finally out the current state is a big letdown. Exactly as the author of that article says - disappointing.

I'm not bothered at all by having to pick a house, but like the author I am very bothered by all the roadblocks between playing with your friends of the same faction or side of the invasion who just happen to be spread over 4 or 5 different units. Want to fight against the clans? Well you can't do that unless you're in the same unit... not just the same faction, the same unit. Want to join a unit? Well you need a contract... wrong contract length, can't join unit....

Additionally the lack of drop lobbies is inexcusable - we have to guess where action is happening, sync drop with/against our friends and *hope* we get a match against them within the coming hour!?

I hope PGI does the right thing and puts in planetary drop lobbies like we had back in 2001, and lets us basically have control over our own matches and events. What are they afraid of? That we will farm a soft currency in a game where you can't transfer soft currency between players? Seeing them make the same mistakes again and again since 2012 is disheartening.

For some reason they seem to keep putting up roadblocks to communities/teams that have existed for decades running events. First with having to sync drop to run them, then with Pay2Lobby, now back to sync drop to run them in CW.

You're right.

It's about 2 years and 11 months delayed. So 3 years.

[Lightfoot]

So the Whiners got their own beta website finally. Good, maybe they will stop asking for all the nerfs here and wasting everyone's time.

CW looks good to me for a start point, but only if it grows into something much larger in scope, which I know it will. CW seems very open ended, ready to grow in a modular fashion.

And as far as I know your contract expires leaving you free to do whatever you want, but there may be some RP consequences for flipping sides, but that is what I am going to do for awhile. Be the Privateer Merc.




.

Edited by Lightfoot, 18 December 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 18 December 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

You're right.

It's about 2 years and 11 months delayed. So 3 years.

let's see...promised 90 days (or so) after Open Beta. Open Beta commenced October 29th, 2012. 90 days (aka 3 months) would put it about January 29th 2013. Let's see, 1 year puts it at....1-29-14..... it's release was what....12-9-14? So 1 year, 11 months?

So, while still indefensibly late (and if a person is still here, water under the bridge), perhaps your arguments would have more impact if...they were accurate.

[Arkmaus]

The best part of the article is that screenshot of the King Crab.

[Lone Ranger]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

let's see...promised 90 days (or so) after Open Beta. Open Beta commenced October 29th, 2012. 90 days (aka 3 months) would put it about January 29th 2013. Let's see, 1 year puts it at....1-29-14..... it's release was what....12-9-14? So 1 year, 11 months?

So, while still indefensibly late (and if a person is still here, water under the bridge), perhaps your arguments would have more impact if...they were accurate.

Yes, Closed Beta started in the Sep/Oct 2012 timeframe - and my install was in Sep 2012, I still have the emails on all the trouble tickets. But I registered in May 2012, I was by no means the first, and they were talking about the analog of CW at least a month or two before then. So it has been close to three years of "discussions," with maybe two years of "promises"???

Edited by Lone Ranger, 18 December 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Jacob Side]

Typical destructiod trash

[KovarD]

Very Good Article.

Tears are delicious.

[KharnZor]

KovarD, on 18 December 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

Very Good Article.

Tears are delicious.

Thats koolaid you are drinking

[SweetJackal]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

let's see...promised 90 days (or so) after Open Beta. Open Beta commenced October 29th, 2012. 90 days (aka 3 months) would put it about January 29th 2013. Let's see, 1 year puts it at....1-29-14..... it's release was what....12-9-14? So 1 year, 11 months?

So, while still indefensibly late (and if a person is still here, water under the bridge), perhaps your arguments would have more impact if...they were accurate.

The real damming point to the article is that even if you ignore the dismissive and almost insulting tone to the writing the article uses to those that are currently enjoying the game then it still has the bulk of the article consumed by a history lesson and minor teething problems within the CW launch.

It jumped at the first possible chance to gather up every small point it could find to condemn the game and in doing so it has hinged the weight of the complaints about the current state on things that are actively being fixed. The article dated itself and is going to lack any relevance in less than a month.

If it was going to take the negative tone then it could have played to the downsides of some of the current designs and how these downsides would be sticking around for a long time or would require significant time and manpower to change. Instead it is a complaint about problems with the maps (that have already been updated,) limited map pool (which is being expanded,) and problems within the CW UI (which is being worked on and improving as we speak.)

Resting the rest of the complaints on "It's too late" is saying "It doesn't matter how good this game ever becomes in the future, never play it because of it was unacceptably late in delivering features." Condemning it for missing features is one thing but condemning it for the features being late after their release speaks more to an agenda than a review.

Not saying that I didn't feel this way in the past but I have been surprised by the changes in the past few months. PGI has been stepping up their game and acting like a responsible development team.

[Lindonius]

SuckyJack, on 18 December 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Not saying that I didn't feel this way in the past but I have been surprised by the changes in the past few months. PGI has been stepping up their game and acting like a responsible development team.

I think it's too late though. Thinking about demographics, non-battlech fans.....There were quite a number of them around during closed beta who just liked stompy robots = gone. Casual BT fans, people aware of the franchise, probably played the previous games but not really hung up on the IP = gone. Islanders, big BT fans who have stopped supporting the game due to PGI's development issues and awful community management = these are the ones that might come back if PGI really do pull their collective fingers out. And finally we have the obsessive hardcore fans, who will lap up anything with the BT label on it, regardless of quality. These are the guys who have kept this game alive so far, but they're not enough to maintain it forever.

So the Islanders might come back but that's it. The quality of the product isn't good enough yet to float on steam if they want new players, and I don't think the hardcore Gold's and the trickle of returnees will be enough to keep it alive.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lindonius, on 18 December 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

er.

So the Islanders might come back but that's it. The quality of the product isn't good enough yet to float on steam if they want new players, and I don't think the hardcore Gold's and the trickle of returnees will be enough to keep it alive.

been hearing that for two years, yet the game is growing more now than ever, implying making money..

[Tolkien]

Lindonius, on 18 December 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I think it's too late though. Thinking about demographics, non-battlech fans.....There were quite a number of them around during closed beta who just liked stompy robots = gone. Casual BT fans, people aware of the franchise, probably played the previous games but not really hung up on the IP = gone. Islanders, big BT fans who have stopped supporting the game due to PGI's development issues and awful community management = these are the ones that might come back if PGI really do pull their collective fingers out. And finally we have the obsessive hardcore fans, who will lap up anything with the BT label on it, regardless of quality. These are the guys who have kept this game alive so far, but they're not enough to maintain it forever.

So the Islanders might come back but that's it. The quality of the product isn't good enough yet to float on steam if they want new players, and I don't think the hardcore Gold's and the trickle of returnees will be enough to keep it alive.

If they go to steam before they dramatically improve the new player experience and the UI, then going to steam will do nothing for player numbers. This game has a steep enough learning curve on the mech combat, weapon group management and mech design but let's count what layers of complexity have been added since closed beta:

1) Movement archetypes are last I checked not explained in the movement tutorial (aka what hills can I climb and how fast in what mech). Last I checked the movement tutorial doesn't cover this.

2) Consumables... again, not really covered anywhere you just sort of have to learn the hard way.

3) GXP vs. XP vs. Cbills, vs. MC vs. LP vs. the Washington Generals - which is useful for what, why and when might you rather use the other if possible? This will baffle a new player.

4) Skill unlocks and the rules around the 3 chassis for basics, but then once you have one chassis of a weight class mastered you can... etc.

5) Clan tech versus inner sphere.

6) Dat UI2.0 mechlab... even as an old time mech designer I find it impossible to design a mech in there. I invariably have to jump out to a site like smurfy to figure out if stuff will fit.

7) Quirks.... lots of data there that isn't presented in the in game UI. New players probably won't even know these exist yet for many inner sphere chassis they are now role defining.

8) Game play modes - there's a bit to learn there.


Assuming they get past this initial barrier there's another big problem at the gates of CW>

A 'new' player is hopelessly outmatched even after their cadet bonus is claimed. They need 4 mechs customized to take advantage of quirks and with doubled basics unlocked before they get thrown in the shark tank - let's not even consider how much more it will cost to add modules to those mechs. Basically CW is forming up like a MOBA but to borrow terminology from league of legends it is putting new players at level 3-5 with 1-2 runes against level 30's with full pages - results may be messy.

TL:DR; All the things PGI has added to the game since closed beta to further push monetization and to add 'end game content' via a deluge of weapon modules has built a pretty impressive wall to entry for potential new players. Add this on top of the UI2.0 frustrations and MW just being a pretty complex game to begin with (even when mech customization isn't involved) and it's clear the current single movement tutorial won't cut it.

[DaZur]

Lindonius, on 18 December 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I think it's too late though. Thinking about demographics, non-battlech fans.....There were quite a number of them around during closed beta who just liked stompy robots = gone. Casual BT fans, people aware of the franchise, probably played the previous games but not really hung up on the IP = gone. Islanders, big BT fans who have stopped supporting the game due to PGI's development issues and awful community management = these are the ones that might come back if PGI really do pull their collective fingers out. And finally we have the obsessive hardcore fans, who will lap up anything with the BT label on it, regardless of quality. These are the guys who have kept this game alive so far, but they're not enough to maintain it forever.

So the Islanders might come back but that's it. The quality of the product isn't good enough yet to float on steam if they want new players, and I don't think the hardcore Gold's and the trickle of returnees will be enough to keep it alive.

No offense... but chances are an awful lot of that demographic would not be here regardless of the state of development. There was a large contingency that PGI lost when the realization that MW:O was not ever going to be a 100% faithful translation of the TT iteration came to bear.

Edited by DaZur, 18 December 2014 - 04:08 PM.

[Basskicker]

I've always felt this game needed a few single player missions for new players to cut their teeth on instead of dropping in the thick of it against other players.

Nothing as complicated as a full SP campaign but maybe a testing ground against moving and shooting targets would be nice.

[Suko]

Quote

You want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard to believe them when they say they've been working on this for three years.

This guy isn't reading between the lines.

Yes, I know that PGI has said they've been working on CW for 3 years, but did (does) anyone really believe that? I know I didn't after year 1. I knew they didn't spend more than an hour on it until they ditched IGP in August. I sincerely believe that 90% of the work done to get CW to the point it is at now was done in less than 4 months. That gives me a small hope that CW, despite all it's huge flaws at present, could be really awesome in another 3 or 6 months.

However, I will say one thing; They really need to get a better UI designer. I was hoping UI 2.0 was just a fluke, but after seeing some of the asinine placement of some things in the CW menus, I'm sure there's some person behind these decisions who might need to be put in charge of other aspects of the game.

Seriously, UI is possibly the most important aspect of any game after it's core mechanics. PLEASE GET IT RIGHT PGI!

Edited by Suko, 18 December 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[Novakaine]

Any clown with a keyboard.
I wonder who the petulant child really is.

[Tolkien]

Basskicker, on 18 December 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

I've always felt this game needed a few single player missions for new players to cut their teeth on instead of dropping in the thick of it against other players.

Nothing as complicated as a full SP campaign but maybe a testing ground against moving and shooting targets would be nice.

I agree. Even in world of tanks there is a mini mission given to teach you how to drive a tank, shoot a gun, about accuracy, about cover, etc. Putting in a series of small missions each with a lesson or two in there would go a long way to addressing the 'in game' complexity. The menu/UI/design complexity however would require something completely different.

Suko, on 18 December 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

This guy isn't reading between the lines.

Yes, I know that PGI has said they've been working on CW for 3 years, but did (does) anyone really believe that? I know I didn't after year 1. I knew they didn't spend more than an hour on it until they ditched IGP in August. I sincerely believe that 90% of the work done to get CW to the point it is at now was done in less than 4 months. That gives me a small hope that CW, despite all it's huge flaws at present, could be really awesome in another 3 or 6 months.

However, I will say one thing; They really need to get a better UI designer. I was hoping UI 2.0 was just a fluke, but after seeing some of the asinine placement of some things in the CW menus, I'm sure there's some person behind these decisions who might need to be put in charge of other aspects of the game.

Seriously, UI is possibly the most important aspect of any game after it's core mechanics. PLEASE GET IT RIGHT PGI!

The problem for me is that I believed them the first three times they said it was just around the corner. Incidentally I gave them a bit of money based on those statements two of the three times. After that I felt pretty pickpocketed and have had trouble believing PGI on anything they say - in fact, I would be stupid to take anything they say about features or content at face value as they now have a well documented history of straight up fabricating statements to sell content.

[Suko]

Tolkien, on 18 December 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

I agree. Even in world of tanks there is a mini mission given to teach you how to drive a tank, shoot a gun, about accuracy, about cover, etc. Putting in a series of small missions each with a lesson or two in there would go a long way to addressing the 'in game' complexity. The menu/UI/design complexity however would require something completely different.



The problem for me is that I believed them the first three times they said it was just around the corner. Incidentally I gave them a bit of money based on those statements two of the three times. After that I felt pretty pickpocketed and have had trouble believing PGI on anything they say - in fact, I would be stupid to take anything they say about features or content at face value as they now have a well documented history of straight up fabricating statements to sell content.

Absolutely and totally agree. I bought the Phoenix package and within a month of that became incredibly disenfranchised with the company. It was that December post where (summarizing here) they basically said they got the rights to keep the game going longer than 2014 (that's news to me. Thank God that happened or I'd have just spent $120+ on a game that wouldn't exist 1 year later), and how CW wasn't even close to done, when at the launch event that September they said it'd be out within 60 days of launch.

God I was SO PISSED at that. Others try to tell me it wasn't a lie, but if what PGI (IGP?) said there wasn't a bold-faced lie, then I don't know what is. I kept my wallet shut since then. I finally did buy some more stuff from them, but not until the news of IGP getting the boot and personally seeing what I thought were good, positive changes by PGI around September. I wanted to encourage more of those kinds of changes, so I bought some stuff. I will now sit patiently and wait to see what happens.

Edited by Suko, 18 December 2014 - 04:27 PM.

[Tolkien]

Suko, on 18 December 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Absolutely and totally agree. I bought the Phoenix package and within a month of that became incredibly disenfranchised with the company. It was that December post where (summarizing here) they basically said they got the rights to keep the game going longer than 2014 (that's news to me. Thank God that happened or I'd have just spent $120+ on a game that wouldn't exist 1 year later), and how CW wasn't even close to done, when at the launch event that September they said it'd be out within 60 days of launch.

God I was SO PISSED at that. Others try to tell me it wasn't a lie, but if what PGI (IGP?) said there wasn't a bold-faced lie, then I don't know what is. I kept my wallet shut since then. I finally did buy some more stuff from them, but not until the news of IGP getting the boot and personally seeing what I thought were good, positive changes by PGI around September. I wanted to encourage more of those kinds of changes, so I bought some stuff. I will now sit patiently and wait to see what happens.

Yeah, that December update was a huge slap in the face considering they told us as recently before that as the Launch party in September that it would be out by the end of the year or something - all of a sudden 'oh yeah we weren't working on it since we didn't know if we could milk it for enough money, we just said we were - wait another 10 months.' Anyone who doesn't understand why people are livid with PGI after bait and switch like that is plainly a sociopath.

I'm very glad to see them making progress since the split with IGP, and to finally have CW drop (even in the rough state) but because of all the past shenanigans there's still a big question mark in my mind about whether I think they really have turned over a new leaf. I actually think they only rush CW out because Transverse showed them their reputation was garbage and no one believed their BS about how great Transverse would be. People just had to look at how badly they had jerked people around with MWO.

PGI as a company has a history of changing names and moving on after past projects are 'done'. For example Jarhead games, gimobi, rabbit hole interactive. The latter of those was even involved in a lawsuit that just wrapped up in March over the quality of the work done (among other things).

Transverse raising only $11,030 over 3 weeks informed PGI that their only hope for survival as a company was to fix MWO pronto. So far they are doing it, and sadly they will probably have to cut their staff to the few dozen people Russ said MWO can support, but they have make good on their past promises or they'll never crowd fund a game again.

[Tezcatli]

Oh holy shet. Let me stop playing because someone got sand in their private parts.