360 replies to this topic

[SpiralFace]

Krivvan, on 18 December 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

I imagine it would require some work for them to implement partial wins, hence why their solution was simply a timer increase.

I wouldn't really call it a solution so much as a "this is what we can do right this second" option. I fully expect that is this issue continues to exacerbate itself that a more comprehensive solution will be developed once they have the time and manpower to do so (holidays can be a ***** on your DEC-JAN staffing.)

[3rdworld]

Krivvan, on 18 December 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

As they were placed into 300 vs. 300 lobbies and the rest of the Persians fought the Greek turrets.

If they had unlimited lobbies, it would have still been 24 vs 60 ish, as they said they had 5ish 12 mans vs U and SJR. Which would be more indicative of "community warfare" not small group vs small group taken in aggregate to see who controls a planet.

[RustyBolts]

Ok so many responses. lets see if I can get through them.

SpiralFace, on 18 December 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

As to the response, Yeah, if they where basically letting the clock run out without even attacking the base, then yeah, that's griefing. If they where just running the clock before a final attack though, that's not.There is nothing in the rules that say they have to hurry up and throw themselves into the meat grinder "or else." It would probably be a case by case basis that greifing would have to be judged on.

What is being conveintly left out of their claim is the following: We landed and attacked one gate and got it open on the first wave in which I died. When then regrouped and attacked a second gate, which we got open and I died again. While regrouping for the third wave, I jumped into my Myst Linx and I went to the first open gate, Alpha, to provide intel and ran into a Lord who followed me back to the Beta gate, in which I jumped over a peak over looking the valley. I shut down to lose the tail. I releazed I was actually in a good spot and started providing movement information to my team. I was not aware that I was the last one until my team told me they were down. I then decided that I was not going to give them a free kill, because lets face it, they **** talk and I do not honor that, so I was not going to give them the honor of free kill. Had that been any other unit I would have rushed out and died. There was no intent to not fight.

jeirhart, on 18 December 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Napoleon's invasion of Russia:
Russian deaths: 210,000

Wehrmacht's invasion of Russia:
Russian total military casualties: over 4,000,000

Wolves idling at spawn:
Digital 'mechs destroyed: 48

But sure, compare sitting in your spawn point to the deaths of millions fighting tooth and nail over their homeland.

Still does not discount my point that the Russians traded land for time to defeat two opponants. Its not like I said they died in vain. The tactic worked and is one reason one the Russians won. Because lets face it, if the Russians had not tore up France in the 1800 and Germany in WWII Europe would be speaking all French or German.

jeirhart, on 18 December 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And finally let us not kid ourselves, this is a violation of the Code of Conduct:

Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

I love that you posted this. Mech suicide is abuse also. So me just rushing you to suicide would also be abuse. mmmm I also participated in two waves of attack and was moving in for the third when I was trying to lose the mech that was following. I was also participating, by providing my team with information as to where your team was.

jeirhart, on 18 December 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And in the Expanded Code of Conduct:

Exploiting / Griefing / Non-Participation
Our definition of Exploiting / Griefing includes:

Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics.
Wilfully or repeatedly taking advantage of an issue for personal gain.

*emphasis my own

Since you threw that out, Here you go cupcake.

Dracol, on 18 December 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Inappropriate Language


This category includes language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:

• Are a mildly inappropriate reference to human anatomy or bodily functions
  
• Are otherwise considered objectionable
  
• Bypass the Mature Language filter

If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:

• Be given a temporary ban from the forums, depending upon severity

Harassing or Defamatory



This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:

• Insultingly refer to other characters, players, Piranha Games Inc. employees, or groups of people
  
• Result in ongoing harassment to other characters, players, Piranha Games Inc. employees, or groups of people

If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:

• Be given a temporary ban from the forums, depending upon severity

Harassment takes many forms, and is not necessarily limited to the type of language used, but the intent. Repeatedly targeting a specific player with harassment can lead to more severe action. The idea behind this is to prevent any one player from consistently being uncomfortable in the forums.


Spamming or Trolling

This category includes:

• Excessively communicating the same phrase, similar phrases, or pure gibberish
  
• Creating threads for the sole purpose of causing unrest on the forums
  
• Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters
  
• Making non-constructive posts
  
• Abusing the Reported Post feature by sending false alarms or nonsensical messages
  
• Numbering a thread, IBTL, TLDR, or any other fad statements

If a player is found to have participated in such actions, he/she will:

• Be given a temporary or permanent ban from the forums, depending upon severity

Next time you spam "ggclose" or insult players, just remember this portion of the TOS there pot. Or is it kettle?

DV McKenna, on 18 December 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

What I suggest is actually making people fight over planets. Not vs empty teams and AI turrets.

If there are people in game defending a planet additional forces waiting in the attack que should be held in the que ready to go as defending teams come out and reque.

If there are no games in progress and less than 12 people in the defence que then it can spawn a turret game under current conditions.

Larger number factions can still win out long term but smaller factions aren't left at auto waste of time status.

I agree with this, but as an attacker, I should not have to sit in the lobby for an hour waiting to attack because one faction does not have the bodies to defend either. If that happens, CW will dry up quick as people go back to the pug matches.

Krivvan, on 18 December 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

If you continue doing that when you're the only one alive, then that actually is an unquestionable ToS violation. I don't blame any other Wolf player for the overall strategy they used, but I do take specific objection with griefing by being the last one hiding.

And the extent of the "trolling" in that chat were comments like "Don't be cowards Wolves."

See my above posts. trolling is trolling regardless if it verbal or game play. Like I said, if I can get through one match with a Lords player without hearing "GGclose" "are you guys even trying" "You must be the worst warriors ever", etc... then I may have a heart attack.

Edited by RustyBolts, 18 December 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Hukkama]

RustyBolts, on 18 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

See my above posts. trolling is trolling regardless if it verbal or game play. Like I said, if I can get through one match with a Lords player without hearing "GGclose" "are you guys even trying" "You must be the worst warriors ever", etc... then I may have a heart attack.

ive never seen them spam ggclose in a game by one player. they each say it once? that isnt spamming any more then multiple people saying o7 is spamming

[Krivvan]

RustyBolts, on 18 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

I then decided that I was not going to give them a free kill, because lets face it, they **** talk and I do not honor that, so I was not going to give them the honor of free kill. Had that been any other unit I would have rushed out and died. There was no intent to not fight.

See my above posts. trolling is trolling regardless if it verbal or game play. Like I said, if I can get through one match with a Lords player without hearing "GGclose" "are you guys even trying" "You must be the worst warriors ever", etc... then I may have a heart attack.

That's the very definition of intent to not fight. It's the very same thing as when people get reported for hiding with their mech in regular queue. It's not about honour or anything, it's actual violation of the game rules.

I've already mentioned that as a general rule that I don't insult other players.

Hukkama, on 18 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

ive never seen them spam ggclose in a game by one player. they each say it once? that isnt spamming any more then multiple people saying o7 is spamming

Well, there was still Villz before he essentially quit HoL and quit MWO....

ggclothed

Edited by Krivvan, 18 December 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Hukkama, on 18 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

ive never seen them spam ggclose in a game by one player. they each say it once? that isnt spamming any more then multiple people saying o7 is spamming

I have seen it last time we met them. They still say it, do not worry, bad habits are hard to die..

[RustyBolts]

Krivvan, on 18 December 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

That's the very definition of intent to not fight. It's the very same thing as when people get reported for hiding with their mech in regular queue. It's not about honour or anything, it's actual violation of the game rules.

I've already mentioned that as a general rule that I don't insult other players.

Well, there was still Villz before he essentially quit HoL and quit MWO....

Then everytime a mech has ECM they are hiding. I was participating by providing intel. Its not like as soon as the match started I ran off and hid. Also, if you are not one of those who insult players, which I do not recall you ever being on that does, it does not apply. However, your unit does it, your unit condones it, so you are going to be lumped in with the rest by most of the community, because most people see it as guilt by association.

[Hukkama]

CyclonerM, on 18 December 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

I have seen it last time we met them. They still say it, do not worry, bad habits are hard to die..

like i said i see them each say it once. is that really spamming? the same way KFC says is this new map or game mode? and GGCLOTHED FROM THE LURDS

[CyclonerM]

Hukkama, on 18 December 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

like i said i see them each say it once. is that really spamming? the same way KFC says is this new map or game mode? and GGCLOTHED FROM THE LURDS

If technically it is not "spamming", saying it once is enough. Saying it is so much a habit that they say it even when the match is evidently close and their enemies have not been really wrecked. I mean, winning after 20 minutes of failed attacks to the base, at the third wave (so they have actually lost more than half their 'Mechs) does not sound to me a great victory. Does it to you?

[Krivvan]

http://www.reddit.co...ie_the_s_issue/

[Hukkama]

its a catch phrase who cares when and why they say it. Lurds say ggclothed even when we get stomped. not spam QQ more

[Karl Streiger]

Krivvan, on 18 December 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

http://www.reddit.co...ie_the_s_issue/

Sounds adequate should work for the good the bad and even the ugly.

[Gas Guzzler]

I have seen a couple fallacies here:

1) Clans aren't supposed to take other Clan planets

Really? Then why are they attackable? Just because in lore they didn't right off the bat doesn't mean that in this CW BETA video game clans cannot attack each other. No one ever said events were going to follow lore exactly.

2) Spawn camping is wrong

Why are you letting the defenders waltz into your spawn? Have yet to have that happen...


As far as running out the clock goes, are you guys saying it is an exploit or what? I mean dishonorable/dezgra whatever, but if that is what is keeping you from defending the planets then that is a problem with game design and not really there fault.

All in all, this is beta, its all going to be reset, so I don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape.

[jeirhart]

RustyBolts, on 18 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Since you threw that out, Here you go cupcake.

Next time you spam "ggclose" or insult players, just remember this portion of the TOS there pot. Or is it kettle?

I am not nor have ever been a member of Lords. It is quite clearly stated in my forum signature which unit I belong to. If you wish to call me out, make sure I actually do the things you are accusing me of first.

Furthermore, I hope you screenshot and report all instances of insults and derogatory language you encounter as that is what you are supposed to do and what I do when I encounter that language. The point of this thread, at least for me, is not to report or even publicly shame those Wolves who took part in the tactics discussed in this thread. Merely an attempt to dissuade other units from using said tactics in future drops until such behavior can be curbed by game mechanics or more specific rule sets.

If certain Wolves find these tactics acceptable, what is there to keep other units from performing these exact same strategies against others? What prevents Wolves from taking any Falcon planet or the Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth from simply swamping the queue to turn the drops into prolonged battles where the defenders have to become attackers in order to to get back into queue and then still get insulted as being "spawn killers" when they do successfully push out?

It is bad gameplay, plain and simple and it needs to be called out and decried before it spreads.


~~~

As far as potential solutions go, allowing multiple attackers/defenders to actually "join in" a battle after it is finished would be an interesting change. Lords goes from fighting a 12 man drop to fighting multiple 12 mans in a row with no break in between to repair or rearm (button option to continue defending or just pull out which gives the next wave of attackers an auto win if no other teams are queued to defend). Then you simply add a Community Warfare attack cooldown (longer one for attack than defense) to accounts (Drop Ship travel) and the good teams on limited population factions can now potentially defend planets being swamped by teams. Meanwhile the other teams can actually wear the Lords down with attrition and pure length of time.

Full post over here now that I have had a chance to write it up.

Edited by jeirhart, 18 December 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Armando, on 18 December 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

[/size]

While no one player or perhaps even one unit could take em down in blind public ques...

Speak for yourself. Ive taken out so many " Lords " players in pub ques for the last few years I kinda lost count. They are good pilots, but not invincible.

On to the main subject... if an enemy team really wants to waste 30 min of their time to hold up Lords or whoever for an extra 5-10 min and they still get the win... WTF is the problem? You win the match anyway, your defending your base. Not even sure why you guys are all butt hurt over what an enemy team decides to do.

If you want to call it trolling... go ahead. YOU GOT TROLLED. CRY SOME MORE.

Edited by Alwrath, 18 December 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[RustyBolts]

Hukkama, on 18 December 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

its a catch phrase who cares when and why they say it. Lurds say ggclothed even when we get stomped. not spam QQ more

Its a catch phrase that is an insult to the other team. Which is a violation of the very same ToS that some of your members are throwing out. And although only one guy each may be saying, when a whole bunch say it, then it is group spam.

[Krivvan]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 December 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

As far as running out the clock goes, are you guys saying it is an exploit or what? I mean dishonorable/dezgra whatever, but if that is what is keeping you from defending the planets then that is a problem with game design and not really there fault.

I'm not saying it was an exploit so much as a flaw with game design. The exception to this is hiding the last mech, that I would consider to be griefing.

RustyBolts, on 18 December 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Its a catch phrase that is an insult to the other team. Which is a violation of the very same ToS that some of your members are throwing out. And although only one guy each may be saying, when a whole bunch say it, then it is group spam.

He's not on Lords.

Alwrath, on 18 December 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

On to the main subject... if an enemy team really wants to waste 30 min of their time to hold up Lords or whoever for an extra 5-10 min and they still get the win... WTF is the problem? You win the match anyway, your defending your base. Not even sure why you guys are all butt hurt over what an enemy team decides to do.

The issue fundamentally is about how ghost wins occur and are handled more than anything else.

Edited by Krivvan, 18 December 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Hukkama]

RustyBolts, on 18 December 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Its a catch phrase that is an insult to the other team. Which is a violation of the very same ToS that some of your members are throwing out. And although only one guy each may be saying, when a whole bunch say it, then it is group spam.

my members? theres only one other Lurd and he isnt on the forums.

[Dracol]

RustyBolts, on 18 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

-sniped the long post the includes a indirect reference that I was part of the 'ggclose' crowd as well Failling to quote what I actually posted-

So. um, ya.... I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm just an outside party putting up an observation. No allegiance to anybody currently aligned with clans.

Your false claim of my allegiance/behavior could be considered an insult and against the ToS.....

[RustyBolts]

jeirhart, on 18 December 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

I am not nor have ever been a member of Lords. It is quite clearly stated in my forum signature which unit I belong to. If you wish to call me out, make sure I actually do the things you are accusing me of first.

Furthermore, I hope you screenshot and report all instances of insults and derogatory language you encounter as that is what you are supposed to do and what I do when I encounter that language. The point of this thread, at least for me, is not to report or even publicly shame those Wolves who took part in the tactics discussed in this thread. Merely an attempt to dissuade other units from using said tactics in future drops until such behavior can be curbed by game mechanics or more specific rule sets.

If certain Wolves find these tactics acceptable, what is there to keep other units from performing these exact same strategies against others? What prevents Wolves from taking any Falcon planet or the Draconis Combine and Federated Commonwealth from simply swamping the queue to turn the drops into prolonged battles where the defenders have to become attackers in order to to get back into queue and then still get insulted as being "spawn killers" when they do successfully push out?

It is bad gameplay, plain and simple and it needs to be called out and decried before it spreads.


~~~

As far as potential solutions go, allowing multiple attackers/defenders to actually "join in" a battle after it is finished would be an interesting change. Lords goes from fighting a 12 man drop to fighting multiple 12 mans in a row with no break in between to repair or rearm (button option to continue defending or just pull out which gives the next wave of attackers an auto win if no other teams are queued to defend). Then you simply add a Community Warfare attack cooldown (longer one for attack than defense) to accounts (Drop Ship travel) and the good teams on limited population factions can now potentially defend planets being swamped by teams. Meanwhile the other teams can actually wear the Lords down with attrition and pure length of time.

You are correct. I appoligize, I was doing a lot of mutliQuoting and I lumped you in as a lord. However, it does not change my post in response to your post concerning their behavior being a violation of the ToS that they are accusing others of violating. And yes, I have screen shots so its up to PGI.

And those who dont think its acceptable tactic, let me put it this way. We have 30 minutes to kill the generator. If we choose to base rush and kill it in the first 5 minutes or the last 5 minutes, it does not matter. We have 30 minutes.

We did two waves of attacks that took out their gates and were starting the 3rd when they pushed out toward our spawn. They then want to acuse us of not attacking. They then sat on our spawn to kill our last wave. However, they are conviently leaving that out. Did we milk the clock? Yes. to make sure we were organized and trying to get ready. Because lets face it, if you are not organised the beating will be worse. I also explained my actions, so I will not go into that any more.

Hukkama, on 18 December 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

my members? theres only one other Lurd and he isnt on the forums.

My appoligies. I saw Lurds and misread that. But it still applies to the Lords.