257 replies to this topic

[Sadist Cain]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

In game VOIP would go quite a ways to bridge this gap, however most units play together and even practice together regularly. Chances are a random group of 12 in comms will still have a difficult time beating an organized team who know each others strengths and weaknesses and have practiced running specific tactics together.

Most definitely, although a 2-3 groups of 4-3 man units would certainly have an easier time working together with a bit more structure implemented.

I heard someone in game put it perfectyl "Too many chiefs, not enough indians".
Coordinating small groups to work with each other can often be more tasking than herding cats with solo players.

Whilst a bunch of solo players still wouldn't have much of a hope against a bunch of battle hardened veterens who play together regularly, the soloists would certainly have a higher quality of game.

Small units however the change could be more profound. There can be a lot of skill hiding in those smaller units and I think seeing them come together more effectively, once given the tools to do so, would bring some surprising results.

And ultimately it's all about match quality, losing is far more palatable as long as it's a good fight.

Void2258, on 19 December 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

The problem is that in a game that clearly needs universal integrated voice chat, we have none. The extremely slipshod "integration" with C3 is nowhere near practical.

Good lord is that thing still around?

Edited by Sadist Cain, 19 December 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[Mystere]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

How about we just not allow solo players to do CW?

Booo!

I do just fine as long as I don't get teamed up with <unmentionables>.

[Averen]

Tidy, on 19 December 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Common no one wants to be steam rolled or do the rolling in this game but every one wants to have access to all of the content.

Yeah, people play indeed for fun and dont want to be steamrolled.

Edited by Averen, 19 December 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[GeistHrafn]

Squally160, on 19 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

And no, I do not thing pugs need to be considered when designing CW.

I saw a statistic earlier stating the community base was approximately 84% pug players...you truly believe that those folks, only the larger units, need to be considered? Really?

Squally160, on 19 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

For the past two years, this game has revolved around pugs.

As I was so accurately corrected earlier, there already WAS a group queue. This queue revolved around pugs?

Squally160, on 19 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

I am sorry, but if you want to come play in CW, i suggest you put on your big boy panties and be ready for the ride. This isnt a casual mode.

Right back to "hard mode" and L2Play. Good on you. Consistent I'll give you.

[Darth Futuza]

Tidy, on 19 December 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Wonder if it would be bad thing to match 12 man with only 12 man?
Common no one wants to be steam rolled or do the rolling in this game but every one wants to have access to all of the content.

I've seen pugs roll 12 mans, they aren't always cut out to be all that.

However, doing so would mean 12 man wait times would increase by a significant margin. Also it would disable you from attacking/defending planets you want if PUGS are holding it. Which is dumb and kind of defeats the point of CW and working for a planet.

[Jonathan Paine]

OP might want to focus on being helpful rather than complain about a game mode that is in its first week of beta. How do we solve discrepancies in skill? Handicaps perhaps - extra re-spawns for outclassed teams? Rewards perhaps - more cbills/xp for fighting uber teams? Tougher bases for outclassed teams?

[Here5y]

ztac, on 19 December 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

12 mans can slaughter PUG's again ... hooray !
Is this what CW was all about ? Certainly feels that way . Still it's only redeeming feature is longer battle time and multiple drops ... other than that it is quite boring and gets very old very fast . 2 years and this is what is on offer?

Welcome to the Shark Tank without Matchmaker :-D

[Darth Futuza]

Jonathan Paine, on 19 December 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

OP might want to focus on being helpful rather than complain about a game mode that is in its first week of beta. How do we solve discrepancies in skill? Handicaps perhaps - extra re-spawns for outclassed teams? Rewards perhaps - more cbills/xp for fighting uber teams? Tougher bases for outclassed teams?

This would indeed be fair. If PUGS win against 12 man, give them triple rewards or something.

[NextGame]

After a hard day chomping down on clan mechs on some clan held planet with zero defeats as an 8 thru 12 man depending on who was around I have a few points to make, in no particular order.

1# There are some excellent solo players who are more than good enough to play CW against teams. Also, some unit players will drop solo too if they have no teammates on to play with, or their unit group/s is/are full. The problem is generally not skill, it's Rambo mentality/attitude.

2# If you are getting thumped on a particular planet over and over again by a unit, it might not be the best idea to keep queuing for that planet.

3# When a match turns into a farm for a unit team, it isn't really that fun after about the 5th or 6th time; and you do start wanting opposing organised units to appear to play against (I think we only saw one or 2 8ish mans the whole day, these were the better matches we had, despite the glib smack that both sides were talking )

4# Clearly lots of people want to play CW. Who wouldn't? Its the funnest and newest game mode in MWO. But you are going to have to accept you will be swimming against the tide if you go it alone, especially if you do not have the insight into the gameplay that being in a good organised unit can provide. CW is a team game mode, expecting not to come up against teams is counter intuitive

5# Throwing your toys out the pram simply displays that you are not adaptable and are not willing to adapt to this new game mode. There will always be whining idiots in a pvp game that have no concept of reason or logic. Enjoy losing. Theres no real point in worrying too much about this type of player. The game should not be magically changed in order to hand free wins to sore losers.

6# Practically every single unit in the game (including the one I'm part of) are actively recruiting. It's not exactly a difficult task to find a home that suits your needs and improves your chances in CW. However it won't be handed to you, you actually do have to go find a unit and be accepted by them.

7# Bad solo groups losing progress made by units on a planet is a minor annoyance, we really want puggies (on the factions we are in at least) to be better and more organised. Groups aren't against you, despite that some seem to think that they are out to get them, and them specifically.

8# Units don't actually pick their opponents in CW, we cannot magically avoid playing 12 pugs, despite what some people seem to imply in many of the gripes that I have read today, nor will we abandon the CW game mode that has been created for teams to contest.

9# There is a solo queue, it might not be CW, but it is specifically for people who don't want to play with or against groups. Go play it if you are one of those people.

glhf and thanks for the games to anyone we played against today.

Edited by NextGame, 19 December 2014 - 03:16 PM.

[Tidy]

Darth Futuza, on 19 December 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

This would indeed be fair. If PUGS win against 12 man, give them triple rewards or something.

Or place 12 mans in a seperate match making que with bigger rewards and more impact on planets.

[pwnface]

Averen, on 19 December 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

If this is going to continue, than the playerbase will just shrink even more. Pug-players will just stop, because nobody wants to run into the danger of just wasting 30 to 60 minutes on a game without any fun.

I think ultimately it is up to the community to get their solo pug players into comms. Whenever our unit has less than 12 and we pick up a few solo players, we direct them to the House Kurita CW teamspeak and let them know it is available for helping to find groups. If people can't be bothered to try to communicate or work as a team, I don't really feel bad about how their gaming experience is. "Solo queue heroes" won't do well in community warfare, and they really shouldn't either.

[Averen]

Darth Futuza, on 19 December 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

This would indeed be fair. If PUGS win against 12 man, give them triple rewards or something.

Rewards scaling with the skill-difference to the opponents, that is a pretty interesting idea. Especially, if you could still gain something for kill during your team is slaughtered.

[oldradagast]

Averen, on 19 December 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Rewards scaling with the skill-difference to the opponents, that is a pretty interesting idea. Especially, if you could still gain something for kill during your team is slaughtered.

Good idea... give the PUG's some reason to play a game that will almost certainly be a steamroll from the start and give the large groups a reason to look for worthy foes vs. stomping PUG's.

[MischiefSC]

I've played with pugs who beat 12mans in CW a few times. The problem is that it's a completely and totally different skillset than what we've been learning for 2years.

You've still got people bringing LRMs and no ECM against the Clans, you've got people who absolutely never listen to the plan in chat, you've got plenty of folks who just absolutely will not push - they get shot and they hide.

The result being that they cost their entire team the win. It only takes 1 or 2 people doing this sort of stuff to absolutely hamstring their own team. In pug/group drops 1 person being a bit of a derp isn't critical. In CW matches it is. If a push is called by whoever the drop leader is and you don't push you may as well just start trying to TK. The outcome is the same and if you're TKing at least you're denying the enemy team some free points.

It's going to take a while to re-train people. Pugs can do great in CW - many members of organized groups pug games in CW. The issue is making sure that pug or premade you're playing to your team, you know the tactics and you stick to the plan. If you don't then you're absolute dead weight. We've just still got a lot of dead weight right now.

[GroovYChickeN]

Squally160, on 19 December 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

How do you balance a map for unorganized pugs, and 12 mans?

Are there giant flashy lights on the ground and big arrows that point pugs to where to go?

And no, I do not thing pugs need to be considered when designing CW. For the past two years, this game has revolved around pugs. We finally get a system in place that is built around playing as the best team possible to put results, up on a map.

I am sorry, but if you want to come play in CW, i suggest you put on your big boy panties and be ready for the ride. This isnt a casual mode.

First:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130202/multiplayer_level_design_indepth_.php?page=1

Here is a good starter for you. By no means is this comprehensive and we could have a discussion for YEARS about game/level design. BUT I've read this a number of times while working on my own projects.

Second:

PUG make up most the people who play this game. When you drive those players quit because of your "HardMode"/"L2P" attitude who are you going to play? Look at games like War Thunder/WoT/LoL. Why is it so popular? Because the average Joe can easily jump in and have fun while still feeling like they had an impact. It may not be exactly what you want but it is a simple fact that if PGI neglects the PUG/>12man's then CW will stop working. Especially, as it has been pointed out, this is a design pillar of the game and should be accessible to everyone. Not to mention the argument of PGI's success if they neglect the largest player base of their game.

Edited by GroovYChickeN, 19 December 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[Averen]

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

I think ultimately it is up to the community to get their solo pug players into comms. Whenever our unit has less than 12 and we pick up a few solo players, we direct them to the House Kurita CW teamspeak and let them know it is available for helping to find groups. If people can't be bothered to try to communicate or work as a team, I don't really feel bad about how their gaming experience is. "Solo queue heroes" won't do well in community warfare, and they really shouldn't either.

Doesn't work, there is a central issue: Going into units takes a lot more time and commitment, and, like in every game, most players play the solo queue exactly because they don't wanto to. That's why games like counterstrike might be extremly team-based, but are built around the idea to acommodate less commited players.

To get a hardcore community, you need to entertain a casual userbase in the most cases. You might not like it, but that's how it works. Can't just convert one of the groops.

oldradagast, on 19 December 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Good idea... give the PUG's some reason to play a game that will almost certainly be a steamroll from the start and give the large groups a reason to look for worthy foes vs. stomping PUG's.

Would definitly give motivation to fight a loosing fight and actually feel like you gained something. Could be a very good approach to the clan invasion.

Edited by Averen, 19 December 2014 - 03:19 PM.

[Darth Futuza]

Tidy, on 19 December 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Or place 12 mans in a seperate match making que with bigger rewards and more impact on planets.

Queue would take too long, don't want. Matchmaker should just compare relative elo of teams and give rewards for the match based on that. (Only never decrease from current rewards since CW is too piss poor rewardy at the moment, only increase.)

[Squally160]

Rhazien, on 19 December 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

I saw a statistic earlier stating the community base was approximately 84% pug players...you truly believe that those folks, only the larger units, need to be considered? Really?

As I was so accurately corrected earlier, there already WAS a group queue. This queue revolved around pugs?

Right back to "hard mode" and L2Play. Good on you. Consistent I'll give you.

First point: YES. hence why I said it?
Second point: Group que was setup to alleviate whiners in the normal que at the time. it was so bad, it forced many players out of the game. You could ONLY que with 12, no more, no less. you could wait all night and not get a match. Then they changed the que, and it became more tolerable, but still, people whined about that.

Third point: Uh, yes? Want to fight over planets? get good, join a unit, be more effective. Want to just play? join the puglandia que.

[pwnface]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

You've still got people bringing LRMs and no ECM against the Clans, you've got people who absolutely never listen to the plan in chat, you've got plenty of folks who just absolutely will not push - they get shot and they hide.

The result being that they cost their entire team the win. It only takes 1 or 2 people doing this sort of stuff to absolutely hamstring their own team. In pug/group drops 1 person being a bit of a derp isn't critical. In CW matches it is. If a push is called by whoever the drop leader is and you don't push you may as well just start trying to TK. The outcome is the same and if you're TKing at least you're denying the enemy team some free points.

I've had to deal with this issue sometimes within my own unit, when I call for a push once in a while I'll see 1 or 2 people hang out in the back and and continue sniping. Typically, it won't cost us a defeat but in a very close match it definitely could. It irks me when I call people out on it and they reply with "but look at my 1 million damage...". Winning the match should always be more important than personal performance. Being that one guy that is a special snowflake and wants to play the "solo hero" game has no place in organized play.

[NextGame]

Tidy, on 19 December 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Or place 12 mans in a seperate match making que with bigger rewards and more impact on planets.

The matchmaker currently places bigger groups right at the front of the queue. If you are 12 pugs against a unit, chances are that your faction has no units working on the planet unless they are currently in battle. Maybe choose your faction/planet/battles more wisely?

Edited by NextGame, 19 December 2014 - 03:29 PM.