257 replies to this topic

[pwnface]

Averen, on 19 December 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Doesn't work, there is a central issue: Going into units takes a lot more time and commitment, and, like in every game, most players play the solo queue exactly because they don't wanto to. That's why games like counterstrike might be extremly team-based, but are built around the idea to acommodate less commited players.

You don't need to join a unit to use voice comms. As I stated earlier, there are PUBLIC teamspeaks available for people who want to group but don't want to join a unit. Having in-game voice comms would help eliminate the friction of having to download teamspeak.

Counter-strike also doesn't have anything remotely similar to Community Warfare. Your matches have no meaning outside of your actual match. We already have a similar system in place with the "solo" and "group" queues.

Community Warfare is not that and should not try to emulate that.

If counter-strike had a global map that teams could control, you can be sure that competitive teams would flock to control areas of the map. Casuals dropping in to have a fun match by themselves would get stomped probably even worse than in MWO.

[Squally160]

GroovYChickeN, on 19 December 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

First:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130202/multiplayer_level_design_indepth_.php?page=1

Here is a good starter for you. By no means is this comprehensive and we could have a discussion for YEARS about game/level design. BUT I've read this a number of times while working on my own projects.

Second:

PUG make up most the people who play this game. When you drive those players quit because of your "HardMode"/"L2P" attitude who are you going to play? Look at games like War Thunder/WoT/LoL. Why is it so popular? Because the average Joe can easily jump in and have fun while still feeling like they had an impact. It may not be exactly what you want but it is a simple fact that if PGI neglects the PUG/>12man's then CW will stop working. Especially, as it has been pointed out, this is a design pillar of the game and should be accessible to everyone. Not to mention the argument of PGI's success if they neglect the largest player base of their game.

You mention WoT/WT/ and LoL. I do not play LoL, I play smite instead.

WoT: You cant get into the big endgame clan warfare unless... you are part of a clan.
WT: There is no persistant map like we have now, it is all skirmish type games that have ZERO impact on the next game played.
Smite (LoL): Ranking system, sure. But to be a part of the leaderboards/tournaments... Team based.

Your point is moot here. All of the big endgame persistent content in the other games, REVOLVES around being in a team. not joining up as a solo player to have some teehee fun.

[GeistHrafn]

Whatever side of this argument you're on, or indeed neutral, GroovYChickeN made a point that others have made, and i think will turn out to be true:

GroovYChickeN, on 19 December 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

It may not be exactly what you want but it is a simple fact that if PGI neglects the PUG/>12man's then CW will stop working.

As laid back a player or unit you are, or as elite or hardcore as you claim to be, the player base size requires the numbers provided by pugs and smaller units, and the push to be better provided by larger units.

Solutions and compromises are what is going to be needed. Whining it's too hard, or telling folks they should go back to "puglandia" are not constructive.

[Sandpit]

What amazes me is how some people want to use pugs and solos as some sort of excuse for losing, even in the face of other pugs and solos telling them they're doing just fine.

I pug
I solo
I've yet to drop in a 12man for CW

I've lost 3 times
I've won 11 times

I've faced 4 12mans
I only lost one of those matches

So maybe someone can explain to me what some solo and pug players do just fine while others can't seem to cope and adapt to the same system?

It's not a pug thing, it's not a solo thing, so please stop using those as your shields. It's a teamwork and coordination thing. You don't need voip (although it makes it MUCH easier) for that, you just need players who are willing to work together as a team.

You are NOT going to be able to "carry harder" in CW. It's simply not going to happen. You aren't going to be able to derp out on your own and take out 2-3 enemy mechs and win. You MUST change "gears" from pub queue to CW queue if you want to be successful.

If you want to participate, then learn how to play as a team. Stop blaming everyone else. A team and tea mentality starts with the individual player. If you're sitting there saying "PUGs can't win", then you're not really helping anything because it's a proven fact that many of us PUGs CAN win and do, quite regularly, whether we're facing a 12man or other PUGs.

If you're sitting there saying "Solos can't win", then you're not helping anything. It's a proven fact that solos CAN win and do, quite regularly, whether they're facing a 12man of other solos or PUGs.

It's not even a matter of "skill", it's a matter of whichever team uses the more teamwork and coordination. If you're not into the whole "team" thing, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their own idea of fun and how they like to play. That's also why PGI has given those players plenty of options with pub queues, solo queues, group queues, CW queue, and private matches, so that everyone could play in a manner they find enjoyable.

Do you see 12mans jumping into the forums and complaining that they can't drop in the solo queue?
No, because that would be a but silly to expect those players and that queue to accommodate them.

just like it's still to expect the CW queue to completely rework the entire system and basis of the queue in the first place, to accommodate solo players who don't enjoy dropping with no Elo, etc.

Rhazien, on 19 December 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

Whatever side of this argument you're on, or indeed neutral, GroovYChickeN made a point that others have made, and i think will turn out to be true:


As laid back a player or unit you are, or as elite or hardcore as you claim to be, the player base size requires the numbers provided by pugs and smaller units, and the push to be better provided by larger units.

Solutions and compromises are what is going to be needed. Whining it's too hard, or telling folks they should go back to "puglandia" are not constructive.

The record breaking numbers that PGI recorded for CW would indicate that there are plenty of PUGs and solo players who enjoy it in its current form. Statements like that just try to imply that the majority doesn't enjoy it. Based on the forums (and completely ignoring other areas with even more players saying it), there's at LEAST as many solos and PUGs that enjoy CW.

To try and imply that that he represents some sort of majority is silly

[Karl Streiger]

I won't defend PUGs slaughter - i have seen one today - and it was not possible to stop the rampage, when there were 4 disconnects at the attacking team.


NO PUG team could have a chance to attack with success on Boreal - and its unlikely that they will made it on Sulfur.
On the other hand PUG teams have a good chance to defend both maps -with good success - when not facing "over the top" comp teams - we got almost an defeat today - dropping with 12 premade vs a group of pugs.

So the simplest fix before we get long wait list (without the current wait times already fixed) - prefer Solo Players for fill "defend" ques.
Maybe - if it should be a attack for (example) the Ghost Bears vs FRR - it shouldn't be a attack - position is automatically switched - the side with more premades - have to attack.

That would be a small fix with some effect.

OK the other thing is coordination - its hardly possible to coordinate via chat - for sure - but as attacker each team should take their time - to get to know what is in the queue - what mechs are comming - draft a "plan" -
most important if one guy in the Solo Drop - try to be a "Drop Commander" respect him - even worse orders are better than none.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 19 December 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[GeistHrafn]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

The record breaking numbers that PGI recorded for CW would indicate that there are plenty of PUGs and solo players who enjoy it in its current form. Statements like that just try to imply that the majority doesn't enjoy it. Based on the forums (and completely ignoring other areas with even more players saying it), there's at LEAST as many solos and PUGs that enjoy CW.

To try and imply that that he represents some sort of majority is silly

Sorry wut?
I drop with a small unit, or as a PUG, and I enjoy it just fine. At no point did i imply that the majority doesn't enjoy it. You may wish to re-read my post, I espoused the benefits of both PUGS and large teams.
My point was that PGI cannot leave out either demographic when deciding it's future, doing so may ruin the game for everyone.
I fail to see where in my post I implied he represented a majority, or for that matter, implied the majority didn't enjoy it?

[Sandpit]

Karl Streiger, on 19 December 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

NO PUG team could have a chance to attack with success on Boreal

Again, sweeping blanket statements like this are just inaccurate.

Let's look at it from a simple mathematical standpoint.

12mans comprise about 1% of the entire player population.

Let's use 10,000 as an example population size as I don't think it's unreasonable to use in relation to MWO's size (not saying MWO only has 10k, just that I feel it's a good example)

That would equate to 100 players being in dedicated 12mans
100, that's it.
It is physically impossible for 100 players to roflstomp there way through all of CW. It's not humanly possible. It's just not. Let's say half of the total population drops CW (conservative in my opinion as PGI recorded record breaking numbers), that still puts it at 5000 against that 100.

It's quite simply impossible for that small of a population to have as much affect on CW as some would like to portray it as.

Rhazien, on 19 December 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Sorry wut?
I drop with a small unit, or as a PUG, and I enjoy it just fine. At no point did i imply that the majority doesn't enjoy it. You may wish to re-read my post, I espoused the benefits of both PUGS and large teams.
My point was that PGI cannot leave out either demographic when deciding it's future, doing so may ruin the game for everyone.
I fail to see where in my post I implied he represented a majority, or for that matter, implied the majority didn't enjoy it?

I was referring to the post you quoted. That players was trying to indicate that some sort of majority wasn't enjoying it and unless PGI changed it, CW was going to die off

[LegoPirate]

100 people is about how many people mercstar alone fields in 12's on a given day. i think organized groups make up alot more of the population then you realize.

[Sandpit]

LegoPirate, on 19 December 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

100 people is about how many people mercstar alone fields in 12's on a given day. i think organized groups make up alot more of the population then you realize.

not according to factual numbers that PGI released.
1% of the population.
I'm not "guessing" or "theory crafting", I'm going by PGI's statistical data.

I also never said there were only 100 12man players in MWO, the numbers I gave were an example

1% of the population regardless of how many 12mans there are. They still only comprise a very minute portion of the player population

[pwnface]

LegoPirate, on 19 December 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

100 people is about how many people mercstar alone fields in 12's on a given day. i think organized groups make up alot more of the population then you realize.

Mercstar is also a disgusting abomination of several mushed together units . Whichever faction houses Mercstar will likely be winning at CW purely due to the population bump. The fact that they have several competent pilots doesn't hurt either.

[Omaha]

I just want to add my point of view, not that this little one guy matters a whole lot. Anyways.....

While I am always gonna be a solo player, in this world of coop. I do not recommend going at it solo. Facts are the game was designed in such a way that you need to coordinate as a team. Now it's been quite proven that units have a competitive edge when it comes to this.

Again I must say I do not recommend playing a solo style even though that's how I currently and always play the game. I have good reasons,
1, I really don't wanna deal with the drama that comes with it.
2, I'm not of the social personality.
3, Other reasons I'll keep private.

The thing that bothers me about what I've been seeing in CW (Community Warfare - Community decided wars and territories) CW is supposed to be (In my eyes) faction based warfare, but there seems to be an emphasis on unit based warfare. Unit tags on planets, etc. Which is fine by me. I just don't completely agree with (well it seems this way, maybe its a demographic thing) the way mm seems to stack the 12 mans up against the pugs. I'm fine with this personally, as it make the game for me incredibly hard. I really revel on that underdog type of feeling. But if I'm trying to see the game in the eyes of others I can completely understand how it will frustrate some. Surely there could be a little toning down the rules of the way mm could perhaps set ppl up in matches, after all it's beta. I mean really the group queue is already there, as well as the solo queue. So pick a play-style if that's your thing.

From the developers of the game, CW was supposed to the that hardcore mode, set up a unit, and such etc etc.

The whole Idea of CW being completely catered for organized 12 mans and or units, ehhh I'm not so sure I agree with. I think it should be more based on your faction and not your unit in that faction. That's just me, but don't worry I'll keep fighting life or death, I'll be there to face whatever challenge awaits. GLHF GUYS -N- GALS

Yes the game is made for teamwork. That doesn't mean pugs cant work together as a team, a unit if you will. It's just much much more difficult to organize. This also doesn't mean we people who play at it solo like, aren't being part of the team.

I dunno here towards the end I'm losing track of what I wanted to voice. I'll leave this message at this. o7

[Sandpit]

Omaha, on 19 December 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

the way mm seems to stack the 12 mans up against the pugs.

There is no MM system in CW. You're dropped against players who drop on the same planet as you do. It's not matching you up against anyone in any other particular way. It's first come first serve in the planetary queues

[Sandpit]

Omaha, on 19 December 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

No there is a mm system there has to be. It was even said mm has to play tetris game.

The MM system is a first come first serve basis.

first 12 up are dropped together. There's no matching 12mans against pugs. There's no Elo. There's no random MM system. Each planet has its own queue. Once you have 12 players who fit together that 12 are dropped togather. Whether that be a 12man, 2 6mans, 12 solos, etc.

[Omaha]

Alright then fair enough, then the lack there of may be a problem. I'ts not for me but I can see how it will make people freak out.

Edited by Omaha, 19 December 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[Sandpit]

Omaha, on 19 December 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

Alright then fair enough, then the lack there of may be a problem. I'ts not for me but I can see how it will make people freak out.

CW is geared more towards groups, but plenty of solos do quite well as do smaller pugs (myself included)

The ones that don't do well typically try to play the same way they did in the pub queues and that simply isn't going to work well in CW with they way the matches play out. You can't carry a team no matter how good you are individually.

The solo queue you can. If the players who enjoy playing like that didn't already have a queue and play style dedicated exclusively for them, I could understand, but they do. They aren't being left out in the cold or excluded from anything, but they are going to have to accept that they'll ahve to play as a team in CW or simply not do well.

There's nothing wrong with having one singular portion of the game in a team based game, geared towards promoting teamplay. That's kind of the whole basis. Some people just don't want to accept that not every game mode is going to be for them. Group minded players typically can't stand the solo queue because of the lack of that team mentality. It goes both ways.

Everyone now has options to play in the way that's most enjoyable for them, but some want to attempt to make it look like they're somehow being excluded from playing MWO in any way simply because CW doesn't cater more towards solo play style and that's just silly to me.

[Dahnyol]

ITT: poor arguments against voip to close ease of communication gap

summary :

ppl will cry and i refuse to understand mute buttons
omg use teamspeak (wat? is this supposed to be a point?)
hardmode = deathmatch with a central objective (aka assault) but with walls!

[Sandpit]

Dahnyol, on 19 December 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

ITT: poor arguments against voip to close ease of communication gap

summary :

ppl will cry and i refuse to understand mute buttons
omg use teamspeak (wat? is this supposed to be a point?)
hardmode = deathmatch with a central objective (aka assault) but with walls!

huh?

[LegoPirate]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

not according to factual numbers that PGI released.
1% of the population.
I'm not "guessing" or "theory crafting", I'm going by PGI's statistical data.

I also never said there were only 100 12man players in MWO, the numbers I gave were an example

1% of the population regardless of how many 12mans there are. They still only comprise a very minute portion of the player population

source? cause last i saw pgi posted data that alluded to 50% of people being in groups of 2-4 (since the 12 man queue was dead back then)

pwnface, on 19 December 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Mercstar is also a disgusting abomination of several mushed together units . Whichever faction houses Mercstar will likely be winning at CW purely due to the population bump. The fact that they have several competent pilots doesn't hurt either.

sort of, but not really. most of us realized when cw came around we'd need to join up to stay effective. sig/swk had no chance of making a dent, kind of like how SJR is struggling atm

Edited by LegoPirate, 19 December 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[Sandpit]

LegoPirate, on 19 December 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

source? cause last i saw pgi posted data that alluded to 50% of people being in groups of 2-4 (since the 12 man queue was dead back then)

12mans are not pugs or anything under 12.
12mans are 1% of population per PGI.
You'd have to dig back through the archives. It was in the post when they talked about not allowing over 4mans back in after they announced they would. I believe it was Russ who posted it.
They gave the statistical data.

[LegoPirate]

Sandpit, on 19 December 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

12mans are not pugs or anything under 12.
12mans are 1% of population per PGI.
You'd have to dig back through the archives. It was in the post when they talked about not allowing over 4mans back in after they announced they would. I believe it was Russ who posted it.
They gave the statistical data.

yes but most units that could field 12 mans ran several 4mans instead because the 12s queue was dead, which i just explained. aka most of the smaller groups were actually part of larger groups that could(and now do) field 12.

and youre quoting data (which youre too lazy to go and find, but happy to make conclusions from) from years ago? srs?

Edited by LegoPirate, 19 December 2014 - 05:06 PM.