20517 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 November 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

some of it has to be the competition, too. Watching that video he skylined like he owned the place.... decent players should have fried his but for that.

Low hardpoints, no JJs, light ammo, (soon to be long cooldown), just can't see it being a consistent winner against good players. Sorry man.

Oh Bishop, what happened to you...

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 06 November 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Oh Bishop, what happened to you...

Nothing, I've alway tried to be objective. The mech has the deck stacked against it. What one thing does that Enforcer build do that the Jagermech does not do better? It's not ever faster. Nothing wrong with playing it, but even if it was my pet build, I would be trying to claim it's a good build, even if I was doing moderately well in it.

I'm glad your unit leader is good enough to have success in it, and hope he has fun. But it's NOT, objectively speaking a good build, or one that 99% of players would have success with.

An sorry if I offended by pointing out the level of competition in that match, but the way he parked it up on top of ridges and popped off.... any match I try that, I get focus fired almost instantly. At almost no time against decent players would you get away with skylining that boldly.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 November 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 November 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Nothing, I've alway tried to be objective. The mech has the deck stacked against it. What one thing does that Enforcer build do that the Jagermech does not do better? It's not ever faster. Nothing wrong with playing it, but even if it was my pet build, I would be trying to claim it's a good build, even if I was doing moderately well in it.

I'm glad your unit leader is good enough to have success in it, and hope he has fun. But it's NOT, objectively speaking a good build, or one that 99% of players would have success with.

An sorry if I offended by pointing out the level of competition in that match, but the way he parked it up on top of ridges and popped off.... any match I try that, I get focus fired almost instantly. At almost no time against decent players would you get away with skylining that boldly.

Sure the mech is not optimal and it is clearly a troll build, but he can make it work. And the issue is not competition level (he is tier 1, after all). I think the ability to be in the right place in the right time is part of what makes him good.

But lets not talk about meta and min/max. This is for people not full of Battletech love.

I will love to pilot the Rifleman (and the other Macross Unseen) because of the lore, the legacy of those mechs, not because of some quirks, hardpoints, hitboxes or stats in a videogame.

[TheArisen]

I really want the Rifleman II or III, I've thought for a long time about how good a 75 to 90 Jeagermech/Rifleman would be in MWO. I want the Rifleman II the most because it would be able to actually move and do stuff. That Rifleman III would make the Dwolf look fast.

[Odanan]

Legend Killer it is!
https://mwomercs.com/rifleman

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 06 November 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Legend Killer it is!
https://mwomercs.com/rifleman

No JJ, small engine... Man the Lancelot would be so much better.

[wanderer]

Looks like you've got the original flavor, a potential quad AC/2 battery, and what will almost certainly be a laserboat, especially if the -4D's arm mounts are properly high enough to pew-pew-pew over cover. The Hero may have some potential for asymmetrical arm mounts given the shield mode and the energy/ballistic arm mix. It can actually fit twin AC/5's and a large laser in one arm, for example.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 06 November 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

Legend Killer it is!
https://mwomercs.com/rifleman

counterfeit legend killer.

I know, making it a stock 3N like it's supposed to be really ain't an option. But this version is just BAD.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 November 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

counterfeit legend killer.

I know, making it a stock 3N like it's supposed to be really ain't an option. But this version is just BAD.

To be fair, it looks like what they were trying to do was play into the "canon rumor" thing by emulating the Rifleman II loadout as best they could with the more limited tonnage?

" The Rifleman II uses an Endo Steel structure and an XL Engine, and carries a pair of LB-X Autocannon/10s and Large Pulse Lasers, one in each arm, as well as a pair of Medium Lasers, a Beagle Active Probe, and fourteen Double Heat Sinks."

PGI could (and, IMO, should) have dropped the third ton of LB-X ammo and a bit of armor & put in a Beagle unit, to make the RFL-LK a more complete emulation of the RFL-3N-2.
(Gray Norton running around with such a 'Mech (e.g. one bearing a few centuries-old Star League goodies that no one at the time would have recognized as such) in 3027 wouldn't have been that much different, conceptually, from the Bounty Hunter's 3015 Marauder having Star League era DHS, yes? )

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 07 November 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

To be fair, it looks like what they were trying to do was play into the "canon rumor" thing by emulating the Rifleman II loadout as best they could with the more limited tonnage?

" The Rifleman II uses an Endo Steel structure and an XL Engine, and carries a pair of LB-X Autocannon/10s and Large Pulse Lasers, one in each arm, as well as a pair of Medium Lasers, a Beagle Active Probe, and fourteen Double Heat Sinks."

PGI could (and, IMO, should) have dropped the third ton of LB-X ammo and a bit of armor & put in a Beagle unit, to make the RFL-LK a more complete emulation of the RFL-3N-2.
(Gray Norton running around with such a 'Mech (e.g. one bearing a few centuries-old Star League goodies that no one at the time would have recognized as such) in 3027 wouldn't have been that much different, conceptually, from the Bounty Hunter's 3015 Marauder having Star League era DHS, yes? )

Except that if the Legend Killer had DHS, you would never have gotten the heat commentary from Justin Allard, as it would have been one of the coolest running mechs he ever piloted, making no waste heat unless he used the medium lasers.

Also, since when is the BTE canon? While it would not be impossible for the Bounty Hunter's to have SLDF tech (since it was Natasha's) it seems unlikely, TBH, especially since I don't remember the actual MAD-3R in the scenario pack (where she was ambushed) getting any new tech. Nothing in the special scenario rules.

See, that's my thing, I don't like the rumors, because too many people gravitate toward them as fact (just like IRL).

By canon, the Legend Killer was indeed a stock RFL-3N, Kerensky piloted a Stock WHM-6R and the Bounty Hunter piloted the Marauder he stole from Natty K... which in the original write ups, was also, a stock MAD-3R.

Of course, I would not be shocked to see it retconned post 2000, like so many other stupid things (laser AMS, the whole overblown secret tech SLDF Royals, etc).. End of the day, it invalidates so much of the rich history and lore of the game, and is a total "screw you" to those of us who actually played the game at the official events for this stuff (there was no Laser AMS in 3048, and it would have totally invalidated Ranna's comments to Phelan about the reconstituted Grinner-IIC. And even if it was new enough she would not have known, I doubt it would have slipped Ulrich's attention, as Khan of the Clan that invented it.)

So annoying.

Anyhow, I do prefer the revised loadout, as it makes the mech actually useful, whereas the original posted LK for MWO had 4 bloody AC5 which it could in no way realistically support and would have been bad, and should feel bad.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Except that if the Legend Killer had DHS, you would never have gotten the heat commentary from Justin Allard, as it would have been one of the coolest running mechs he ever piloted, making no waste heat unless he used the medium lasers.

Also, since when is the BTE canon? While it would not be impossible for the Bounty Hunter's to have SLDF tech (since it was Natasha's) it seems unlikely, TBH, especially since I don't remember the actual MAD-3R in the scenario pack (where she was ambushed) getting any new tech. Nothing in the special scenario rules.

See, that's my thing, I don't like the rumors, because too many people gravitate toward them as fact (just like IRL).

By canon, the Legend Killer was indeed a stock RFL-3N, Kerensky piloted a Stock WHM-6R and the Bounty Hunter piloted the Marauder he stole from Natty K... which in the original write ups, was also, a stock MAD-3R.

Of course, I would not be shocked to see it retconned post 2000, like so many other stupid things (laser AMS, the whole overblown secret tech SLDF Royals, etc).. End of the day, it invalidates so much of the rich history and lore of the game, and is a total "screw you" to those of us who actually played the game at the official events for this stuff (there was no Laser AMS in 3048, and it would have totally invalidated Ranna's comments to Phelan about the reconstituted Grinner-IIC. And even if it was new enough she would not have known, I doubt it would have slipped Ulrich's attention, as Khan of the Clan that invented it.)

So annoying.

Anyhow, I do prefer the revised loadout, as it makes the mech actually useful, whereas the original posted LK for MWO had 4 bloody AC5 which it could in no way realistically support and would have been bad, and should feel bad.

BTE itself is not canon, but the sources it draws from are.

In the case of the BH's MAD, it is listed as having DHS in Record Sheets: 3085 Unabridged — Project Phoenix - both BTE & Sarna cite that as their source.

Additionally, BattleTech Dossiers: The Bounty Hunter says the same thing.
"Natasha Kerensky’s former Marauder was customized in 3015, subsequent to some heavy damage it sustained during a Periphery mission. Its ancient Vlar 300 engine was beyond repair, and replaced with a 225-rated reactor instead. Jump jets were included to compensate for the loss of mobility, and its GM Whirlwind was replaced with a third Hellstar PPC. The third particle cannon, along with three additional Mk II lasers, rely heavily on the use of Star League-era double heat sinks recovered from a lostech cache found during the same mission. All these improvements still allowed the armor shell to be improved by three tons."

So, there it is - the BH would have been piloting a MAD with Star League era DHS in/around 3025.
Likewise, it's not completely unthinkable that Norton could have likewise stumbled upon a similar LosTech cache, and acquired/upgraded his Rifleman that way, and said acquisition/upgrade might just happen to vaguely resemble the Rifleman II loadout, yes?

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 07 November 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

BTE itself is not canon, but the sources it draws from are.

In the case of the BH's MAD, it is listed as having DHS in Record Sheets: 3085 Unabridged — Project Phoenix - both BTE & Sarna cite that as their source.

Additionally, BattleTech Dossiers: The Bounty Hunter says the same thing.
"Natasha Kerensky’s former Marauder was customized in 3015, subsequent to some heavy damage it sustained during a Periphery mission. Its ancient Vlar 300 engine was beyond repair, and replaced with a 225-rated reactor instead. Jump jets were included to compensate for the loss of mobility, and its GM Whirlwind was replaced with a third Hellstar PPC. The third particle cannon, along with three additional Mk II lasers, rely heavily on the use of Star League-era double heat sinks recovered from a lostech cache found during the same mission. All these improvements still allowed the armor shell to be improved by three tons."

So, there it is - the BH would have been piloting a MAD with Star League era DHS in/around 3025.
Likewise, it's not completely unthinkable that Norton could have likewise stumbled upon a similar LosTech cache, and acquired/upgraded his Rifleman that way, and said acquisition/upgrade might just happen to vaguely resemble the Rifleman II loadout, yes?

except that actual loadout is fully described by an elite mechwarrior piloting it, who would have known the difference between a light autocannon and a medium heavy, lasers and pulse lasers, and the commentary is pretty explicit about the poor heat management, paper thin armor, light ammo load, etc....as well as all 3 seperate weapon systems being explicitly described, hence why even the Sarna post under Gray Noton is pretty definitive on it.

As for the Bounty Hunter, yes thank you for proving my point about needless retcons ruining the game and it's lore.

Odd that the Bounty Hunter scenario in Tales of the Black Widow happens AFTER 3015 (3025, actually, on Le Blanc), and yet he is in a Stock Marauder in it.

So again, yeah, I'll be selective on this and call BS on the retcon.

But retcon or no, there is no such evidence for the Legend Killer.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

except that actual loadout is fully described by an elite mechwarrior piloting it, who would have known the difference between a light autocannon and a medium heavy, lasers and pulse lasers, and the commentary is pretty explicit about the poor heat management, paper thin armor, light ammo load, etc....as well as all 3 seperate weapon systems being explicitly described, hence why even the Sarna post under Gray Noton is pretty definitive on it.

As for the Bounty Hunter, yes thank you for proving my point about needless retcons ruining the game and it's lore.

Odd that the Bounty Hunter scenario in Tales of the Black Widow happens AFTER 3015 (3025, actually, on Le Blanc), and yet he is in a Stock Marauder in it.

So again, yeah, I'll be selective on this and call BS on the retcon.

But retcon or no, there is no such evidence for the Legend Killer.

"Fully described" might be a bit of a stretch, to be fair.
Looking back over Warrior: En Garde, there does not appear to be any statement indicating either the class or caliber of the canonical Legend-Killer's autocannons.

• "Justin laughed as the announcer carefully nudged the conversation in another direction. The status monitor on his command console confirmed that both large lasers were operational. The auto-cannons appeared to be in fine working order, as were the twin, torso-mounted medium lasers. I must remember to use the cannons sparingly, as I don't have that much ammo for them. I'll only use them when the lasers need to cool down."
  
• "Cascades of white heat swirled around the ruby shafts of laser lire from the Legend-Killer's arms. One large beam shucked armor from the other Rifleman's right shoulder. The other bean-stitched a series of small explosions across the 'Mech's left shoulder, blasting chips and chunks of armor into the air. The Legend-Killer's medium lasers also scored the same targets as their larger cousins, spitting more half-melted ceramics onto the tunnel floor. One of the two autocannon bursts tore holes in Ishiyama behind Capet's Rifleman, while the other smashed armor from the 'Mech's right shoulder."
  
• "Sweat coursed down Justin's face, leaving one droplet suspended from the tip of his nose. He shook his head to flick it off, then studied his heat monitors again. As the Legend-Killer's ten heat sinks vented the excess heat that his firing had created, the monitors slowly sank back down through the red and yellow zones to what MechWarriors often referred to as 'green fields'."

There is no statement to indicate that the autocannons are the factory-stock Imperator-A models, or some other model of class-5 autocannon (e.g. GM Whirlwinds, or Armstrong J11s, or Defiance type J's, and so on)... or even if they are class-5 ACs at all (as the Mydron Excel LB 10-X is of the same caliber as the Imperator-A AC/5, at 80mm).
Likewise, there are no statements to indicate whether the canonical Legend-Killer's lasers are the factory-stock models (Magna Mk. III Large Lasers & Magna Mk. II Medium Lasers), or other models to replace those that may have been damaged beyond repair during the matches the 'Mech fought.
And we know that the Legend-Killer had only ten heat sinks, but we know nothing definitive about them beyond how many were installed on the 'Mech.

Granted, we "know" that everything "should" be stock, but there is (from the standpoint of the "canon rumor") the possibility that there may have been more to the canonical Legend-Killer that meets the eye, and that would not have been revealed by anything short of a full disassembly & reverse-engineering effort.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 07 November 2015 - 09:00 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Strum Wealh, on 07 November 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

"Fully described" might be a bit of a stretch, to be fair.
Looking back over Warrior: En Garde, there does not appear to be any statement indicating either the class or caliber of the canonical Legend-Killer's autocannons.

• "Justin laughed as the announcer carefully nudged the conversation in another direction. The status monitor on his command console confirmed that both large lasers were operational. The auto-cannons appeared to be in fine working order, as were the twin, torso-mounted medium lasers. I must remember to use the cannons sparingly, as I don't have that much ammo for them. I'll only use them when the lasers need to cool down."
  
• "Cascades of white heat swirled around the ruby shafts of laser lire from the Legend-Killer's arms. One large beam shucked armor from the other Rifleman's right shoulder. The other bean-stitched a series of small explosions across the 'Mech's left shoulder, blasting chips and chunks of armor into the air. The Legend-Killer's medium lasers also scored the same targets as their larger cousins, spitting more half-melted ceramics onto the tunnel floor. One of the two autocannon bursts tore holes in Ishiyama behind Capet's Rifleman, while the other smashed armor from the 'Mech's right shoulder."
  
• "Sweat coursed down Justin's face, leaving one droplet suspended from the tip of his nose. He shook his head to flick it off, then studied his heat monitors again. As the Legend-Killer's ten heat sinks vented the excess heat that his firing had created, the monitors slowly sank back down through the red and yellow zones to what MechWarriors often referred to as 'green fields'."

There is no statement to indicate that the autocannons are the factory-stock Imperator-A models, or some other model of class-5 autocannon (e.g. GM Whirlwinds, or Armstrong J11s, or Defiance type J's, and so on)... or even if they are class-5 ACs at all (as the Mydron Excel LB 10-X is of the same caliber as the Imperator-A, at 80mm).


Likewise, there are no statements to indicate whether the canonical Legend-Killer's lasers are the factory-stock models (Magna Mk. III Large Lasers & Magna Mk. II Medium Lasers), or other models to replace those that may have been damaged beyond repair during the matches the 'Mech fought.
And we know that the Legend-Killer had only ten heat sinks, but we know nothing definitive about them beyond how many were installed on the 'Mech.

Granted, we "know" that everything "should" be stock, but there is (from the standpoint of the "canon rumor") the possibility that there may have been more to the canonical Legend-Killer that meets the eye, and that would not have been revealed by anything short of a full disassembly & reverse-engineering effort.

"Justin, shaken by the explosion and stifled by the volcanic heat-vortex swirling in his cockpit, struggled to keep the Rifleman standing. "
""Damn!" A wave of heat washed over Justin. The 'Mech's heat indicators spiked high into the red zone. This isn't an efficient machine. It vents heat poorly. Justin slapped the manual "shutdown" override with his right hand, then cursed again as Capet backed his Rifleman down the far slope."
We know they are not doubled, because of the description of solow heat dissipation, when again, 10 DHS would leave a mild 6 waste heat from an alpha while running. That doesn't even take it out of the green on the heat scale.

Stackpole describes the Legend Killer as having 5 shot popguns vs the Urbanmechs 10 shot.
"That's the UrbanMech. He's got a ten-shot-burst autocannon, as opposed to the five-shot popguns our Riflemen carry. Justin narrowed his eyes. They have to assume my back armor is in sad shape. Given Capet's rudimentary cunning, that means they'll try to trap me between them so that one of them can get a shot at me. The UrbanMech has the jump jets to get it down here. How stupid is that pilot?"

As an experienced elite warrior, Justin would know the difference in recoil, damage done to his opponent between a class 10 and a class 5 ACs. A much less experienced warrior, Phelan Kell, immediately noticed the difference between pulse lasers and normal lasers in the Blood of Kerensky series, and noted it, as Justin surely would have noted a "what the hell" moment had that been the case.

"Twin laser beams from the Legend-killer's arms lanced up between the legs of the other 'Mech. The beams liquified the armor covering the Firestarter's groin, then pulsed on up into the 'Mech's torso. "
"The large lasers cored through the UrbanMech's heart like ruby drills. Shards of hot armor careened off the tunnel walls and whirled through the air. "

so here we have Large Lasers, firing beams, not pulses. The same account further points out the Medium Lasers, as did his initial encounter with Noton in the beginning of the book.

experienced combat troops know when something is not "right" with the gear and vehicles.

What specific manufacturer made each weapon is totally irrelevant.

About the only things that would need to be torn about by an engineer to reveal would be things like an Endo IS or ER Large Lasers, as the actual damage profiles of larger bore autocannons and pulse lasers would be very revealing.

Furthermore, he would need far more than just an advanced tech Rifleman, but a huge cache of spare parts, and a NAIS level tech/engineer to keep it running, especially with the week in and week out abuse it would take in the Arenas.

The Canon Rumors are nice, they add some fun and fluff to the game, but that is ALL they are.

All evidence falls on the Legend Killer being exactly what it is... a stock 3N.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 November 2015 - 09:18 AM.

[TheArisen]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

[i][b]
All evidence falls on the Legend Killer being exactly what it is... a stock 3N.

Hmmm this is a testament to just how good Norton was. There's a discussion on who's the best ever here: http://mwomercs.com/...arrior-in-lore/

[MightyBolamite]

I rather like Odanan's Phoenix II. I'd buy a good number of those mechs.
Do want.

[TheArisen]

We only have one IS 95 tonner in game, so I was looking at some possible additions. I know not all of these are totally in timeline but they're close-ish.

#1 is the Cerberus: http://www.sarna.net...rus_(BattleMech)

#2 is the Albatross: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Albatross

#3 is the Naginata: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naginata

#4 is my personal preference, the Nightstar: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nightstar

Which of these would be the best addition to the game? I really like the Nightstar but the Cerberus is a close 2nd.

Edited by TheArisen, 08 November 2015 - 10:12 PM.

[Odanan]

TheArisen, on 08 November 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

We only have one IS 95 tonner in game, so I was looking at some possible additions. I know not all of these are totally in timeline but they're close-ish.

#1 is the Cerberus: http://www.sarna.net...rus_(BattleMech)

#2 is the Albatross: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Albatross

#3 is the Naginata: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naginata

#4 is my personal preference, the Nightstar: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nightstar

Which of these would be the best addition to the game? I really like the Nightstar but the Cerberus is a close 2nd.

Naginata is the most fitting in the timeline, but that C3 Computer is a problem.
Nothing against the Albatross, but I think it would feel too much like an Atlas.
Cerberus might look very cool in the game (in Alex Iglesias we trust) and has a good loadout.
Nightstar is not humanoid, so it has my vote (but will resume production only in 3057).

I don't care much about another IS 90-100 tonner (except for the freaking Annihilator and Berserker). The two IS assault mechs I really want to see the most are Charger (funny chassis, very different variants) and Long Bow (for Unseen reasons).

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 09 November 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

Naginata is the most fitting in the timeline, but that C3 Computer is a problem.
Nothing against the Albatross, but I think it would feel too much like an Atlas.
Cerberus might look very cool in the game (in Alex Iglesias we trust) and has a good loadout.
Nightstar is not humanoid, so it has my vote (but will resume production only in 3057).

I don't care much about another IS 90-100 tonner (except for the freaking Annihilator and Berserker). The two IS assault mechs I really want to see the most are Charger (funny chassis, very different variants) and Long Bow (for Unseen reasons).

The Naginta is 3055, the Cerberus is 3054, Albatross is 3053. The Nightstar could be explained away by there being some left, it doesn't say it went extinct. We do have the Highlander & KC in game. So the Naginta is the farthest out of the timeline, from what I can tell.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

kodiak. i dont care about those ugly unseen/noneseen/reseen.