20517 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

First step: introduce complex leg models to the game.
Second step: double the leg count.

[Juodas Varnas]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

First step: introduce complex leg models to the game.
Second step: double the leg count.

[wanderer]

Quote

First step: introduce complex leg models to the game.
Second step: double the leg count.

Third step: Realize PGI can't get a quad leg model to walk properly, in part because they got rid of the mechanic that actually set each leg individually on terrain to "optimize".
Fourth step: Cry.

Edited by wanderer, 14 June 2016 - 12:55 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

wanderer, on 14 June 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Third step: Realize PGI can't get a quad leg model to walk properly, in part because they got rid of the mechanic that actually set each leg individually on terrain to "optimize".
Fourth step: Cry.

From what I understand, it isn't so much that they "got rid" of inverse kinematics, but that they have disabled it.

[Metus regem]

wanderer, on 14 June 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Third step: Realize PGI can't get a quad leg model to walk properly, in part because they got rid of the mechanic that actually set each leg individually on terrain to "optimize".
Fourth step: Cry.

Step five: Everyone bows down to the Land Air Mech master race, that cares not for your puny inverse kinematics.

[Ovion]

Juodas Varnas, on 14 June 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Shoulda told him to make it a Quadruped then!

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

First step: introduce complex leg models to the game.
Second step: double the leg count.

wanderer, on 14 June 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Third step: Realize PGI can't get a quad leg model to walk properly, in part because they got rid of the mechanic that actually set each leg individually on terrain to "optimize".
Fourth step: Cry.

Fifth step, realise that even with every quad mech (minus the LAM quad) in the game there's only 30 total (and would require the timeline to be at 3145, and have transforming mech/tanks + a heap more weapons and tech).

Currently, there's 6, and even at 3060 we only get 11 total.
It's not really till 3070+ you see a revival of quads, which combined with the sheer amount of work it would take to implement, it doesn't make economically viable to do.

Which is a huge shame, as I'd love an Antlion, Fire Scorpion, Jaguar, Lich, Revenant, Sarath and Tarantula in game.

[Odanan]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

I'm not saying ya'll can thank me for the leg design of the Huntsman, but...

https://twitter.com/...540084189274113

...I'd like to think I at least influenced his decision to make it digitigrade.

Now make him draw the Fire Moth!
(who am I fooling? He did absolutely draw the Fire Moth a long time ago...)

Charger!!

[wanderer]

Quote

Step five: Everyone bows down to the Land Air Mech master race, that cares not for your puny inverse kinematics.

Step six: Realize LAMs in hybrid or fighter mode go too fast for the game to track and hence are utterly broken due to impossible-to-fix lagshielding. Cry some more.

[Metus regem]

wanderer, on 14 June 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Step six: Realize LAMs in hybrid or fighter mode go too fast for the game to track and hence are utterly broken due to impossible-to-fix lagshielding. Cry some more.

maybe, but if you just hard lock the speed down to 171 (should be doing around 226, factoring in the 15 hex movement they get for triple JJ power), but make that speed conditional on them maintain forward momentum for a few hundred meters before turning. If they don't maintain that forward momentum, then they drop down to 97 to mimic the basic 6/9 movement from TT that they have, when not working like a WiGE.

Of cource the price tag would be it would be next to impossible for them to find cover any where, as they would hover over it. The upside for those shooting at them, no JJ animations to mess with hit boxes.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 14 June 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

maybe, but if you just hard lock the speed down to 171 (should be doing around 226, factoring in the 15 hex movement they get for triple JJ power), but make that speed conditional on them maintain forward momentum for a few hundred meters before turning. If they don't maintain that forward momentum, then they drop down to 97 to mimic the basic 6/9 movement from TT that they have, when not working like a WiGE.

Of cource the price tag would be it would be next to impossible for them to find cover any where, as they would hover over it. The upside for those shooting at them, no JJ animations to mess with hit boxes.

if it were truly ground effect any dip in terrain would effect it's elevation, wouldn't it, so it would not be flying at one constant unbroken elevation unless going over a totally flat surface? (or am I understanding how WiGEs work?).... if so wouldn't that be almost identical to the stutters that people used ot use in JJs to bork hitboxes? Plus even in airmech mode LAMs could and did land, they just were slow and clumsy on the ground, but having that ability would also allow them to mess with aim.

To be militaristically useful, they'd spend most of the time skimming just a couple meters above the ground, anyhow, wouldn't they?

https://youtu.be/WMoCGryOloM?t=19m18s

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 June 2016 - 04:15 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

The topmost portion of ground effect is usually figured as approximately half the wingspan, measured from the ground surface to the lifting body itself. So, yes, changes is elevation would impact the maximum height of working in ground effect. Working below the maximum, on the other hand, means you have a little wiggle room up and down should elevation change. In addition, the ship is still flying, and generating lift, while in forward flight, so it isn't as if the vehicle would drop like a rock the second it gets out of ground effect. This means even if the elevation changes constantly, going up and down and up and down, as long as it is reasonably level and the ship is moving fast enough? Probably wouldn't even notice tremendous changes in altitude.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 14 June 2016 - 05:11 PM.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

if it were truly ground effect any dip in terrain would effect it's elevation, wouldn't it, so it would not be flying at one constant unbroken elevation unless going over a totally flat surface? (or am I understanding how WiGEs work?).... if so wouldn't that be almost identical to the stutters that people used ot use in JJs to bork hitboxes? Plus even in airmech mode LAMs could and did land, they just were slow and clumsy on the ground, but having that ability would also allow them to mess with aim.

To be militaristically useful, they'd spend most of the time skimming just a couple meters above the ground, anyhow, wouldn't they?

https://youtu.be/WMoCGryOloM?t=19m18s

No you totally got it, when looking at the maps in MWO most of them do not have a ton of adjustment in terrain heights in a short area, meaning that the hit box for a LAM would be much more predictable, than that of the JJ flutter. But hey, I'd take the challenge of them in the hybrid mode, over the easy piloting we have now.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 June 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

The topmost portion of ground effect is usually figured as approximately half the wingspan, measured from the ground surface to the lifting body itself. So, yes, changes is elevation would impact the maximum height of working in ground effect. Working below the maximum, on the other hand, means you have a little wiggle room up and down should elevation change. In addition, the ship is still flying, and generating lift, while in forward flight, so it isn't as if the vehicle would drop like a rock the second it gets out of ground effect. This means even if the elevation changes constantly, going up and down and up and down, as long as it is reasonably level and the ship is moving fast enough? Probably wouldn't even notice tremendous changes in altitude.

Good to know (and know you have some IRL experience in a related field) though even a meter drop off or "flutter" up or down....would bork hitbox reg..... though it sounds like it would only see that kind of motion at it's "service ceiling?" And then not really a sure thing?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 June 2016 - 05:41 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

(trust me, I'd be all for WiGEs hybrid LAMs.... i feel that the new LAMs in Classic Battletch should be locked Airmechs, tbh...since the conversion equipment is their achilles heel anyways. But as airmobile scouts? Fixed Airmechs would be pretty darn good I would imagine, at least until they got their lift surfaces potted, then probably a lot less mobile... but then.. they make more sense as scouts than heavy combat units anyhow, right?)

Now...I want to build a fixed form Airmech, packing an Arrow IV....... awesome mobile artillery unit. (I already use modified Yellowjacket Helos in TT to do something similar)

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Good to know (and know you have some IRL experience in a related field) though even a meter drop off or "flutter" up or down....would bork hitbox reg..... though it sounds like it would only see that kind of motion at it's "service ceiling?" And then not really a sure thing?

I mean, yes, if you were functioning at the upper limit of IGE, and it dropped out from under you, you would lose altitude - though how rapidly would depend on how dependant on it you were to stay airborn. Like, if you produce 90% of the lift you need at those speeds to maintain altitude, you wouldn't exactly drop like a stone without ground effect so long as your forward airspeed was maintained. However, dont think of ground effect as a layer with a fixed surface you need to ride upon. The entire zone of ground effect will be giving pushback on the aircraft.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 June 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

(trust me, I'd be all for WiGEs hybrid LAMs.... i feel that the new LAMs in Classic Battletch should be locked Airmechs, tbh...since the conversion equipment is their achilles heel anyways. But as airmobile scouts? Fixed Airmechs would be pretty darn good I would imagine, at least until they got their lift surfaces potted, then probably a lot less mobile... but then.. they make more sense as scouts than heavy combat units anyhow, right?)

Now...I want to build a fixed form Airmech, packing an Arrow IV....... awesome mobile artillery unit. (I already use modified Yellowjacket Helos in TT to do something similar)

How about if they just carry semi-guided Arrow IV in a bomb bay? There is a stock Phoenix Hawk LAM that does that....


On a related note, I've got a company of LAMs for TT, they are fantastic at hit and run as well as search and rescue. In fact in the S.A.R. they are fantastic, Areofighter in, convert close to the target, grab target, convert to hybrid, get altitude, then back to Areofighter to exit the mission area.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 14 June 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

How about if they just carry semi-guided Arrow IV in a bomb bay? There is a stock Phoenix Hawk LAM that does that....

On a related note, I've got a company of LAMs for TT, they are fantastic at hit and run as well as search and rescue. In fact in the S.A.R. they are fantastic, Areofighter in, convert close to the target, grab target, convert to hybrid, get altitude, then back to Areofighter to exit the mission area.

That sounds a lot like Robotech/Macross... as much as I like the concept of LAMs, I think FASA screwed Battletech hard by adding them.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 15 June 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

That sounds a lot like Robotech/Macross... as much as I like the concept of LAMs, I think FASA screwed Battletech hard by adding them.

I think that if they had stuck to hybrid and Areofighter only it would've been better. That being said, I think FASA never really handled them well. If they ever restart everything, there is a chance they could be better implemented. They are not direct combat units, they are rescue and scouting specialists.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 15 June 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

I think that if they had stuck to hybrid and Areofighter only it would've been better. That being said, I think FASA never really handled them well. If they ever restart everything, there is a chance they could be better implemented. They are not direct combat units, they are rescue and scouting specialists.

They are too good at scouting, steeping over Aerotechs/VTOLs' role.

And oh boy, they can do hit-and-run combat like nothing else.

Really, depending on the terrain, a LAM can beat any mech with impunity.

[Dawnstealer]

I want my Hatchetman LAM.