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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

BattleMech Balance

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#1441 Strum Wealh

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:53 PM

Because I feel they're pertinent to the ongoing discussion, here are a couple of self-quotes.

View PostStrum Wealh, on 03 January 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Let's look at what variants the Zeus could have available (based on timeline and tech appropriateness):
  • ZEU-5T: x1 ERPPC (LA), x1 ERLL (LA), x2 MLas (LT, CT), Artemis-LRM-15 (RA); FF and DHS
  • ZEU-5S: x1 UAC/5 (LA), x1 ERLL (LT), x2 MLas (LT, CT), Artemis-LRM-15 (RA); DHS
  • ZEU-6S: x1 AC/5 (LA), x1 LLas (LT), x2 MLas (LT, CT), LRM-15 (RA)
  • ZEU-6T: x1 PPC (LA), x1 LL (LT), x2 MLas (LT, CT), LRM-15 (RA)
  • ZEU-9S: x1 ERPPC (LA), x1 ERLL (LT), x2 MPLas (LT, CT), CASE (RT), LRM-15 (RA); FF and DHS
  • ZEU-9S-DC: x1 ERPPC (LA), x1 ERLL (LT), x2 MPLas (LT, CT), Command Console (HD), CASE (RT), LRM-15 (RA); FF and DHS
All variant mass 80 tons and have a top speed of 64.8 kph.

None of the variants are jump-capable, normally mount AMS, normally mount BAP, or normally mount ECM.

The record sheets, included at the links above, also indicate that the -5T, -5S, -6S, and -6T have Hand Actuators in both arms, while the -9S and its DC subvariant lack hands but have Lower Arm Actuators in both arms; this is significant, as it affects how many open criticals are (and should be) available in each arm.

If the Zeus were to be implemented in MWO, I would imagine that it would be the ZEU-5T, ZEU-6S, ZEU-6T, and ZEU-9S-DC that would be implemented, as the -5S could be easily built from the -6S (with the latter being the most common variant) and the -9S could be easily built from the -9S-DC (by removing the Command Console and adding another DHS).

Your thoughts?

View PostStrum Wealh, on 11 December 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Well, the Banshee is fairly common, and actually has plenty of canon pre-3049 variants:
BNC-3E (2475) - x1 Small Laser, x1 PPC, x1 AC-5
BNC-3M (2579) - x1 Small Laser, x2 Medium Lasers, x2 PPCs
BNC-3Q (2915) - x1 Small Laser, x1 AC-20
BNC-3S (3026) - x2 Small Lasers, x4 Medium Lasers, x2 PPCs, x1 SRM-6, x1 AC-10
BNC-3MC (3037) - x1 Small Laser, x1 PPC, x1 AC-10
BNC-5S (3048 or 3053, depending on source) - x2 Small Lasers, x4 Medium Lasers, x2 ER-PPCs, x1 SRM-6, x1 Gauss Rifle

Potential Hero 'Mech: BNC-3S "Reinsblatt" (3029) - x2 Small Lasers, x4 Medium Lasers, x1 Large Laser, x1 LRM-10, x1 AC-10, x1 Hatchet

On the one hand, given that other common and less-commonly-used-in-the-video-games 'Mechs like the Trebuchet, Cicada, Cataphract, and Spider are being included, the Banshee is as good a candidate as any.
Additionally, the Banshee would fill the 95-ton slot and, in the case of the -3S, its hardpoint layout would be significantly different from that of the Atlas:
-- 8 energy hardpoints (x1 HD, x1 CT, x1 LA, x5 RT)
-- 1 ballistic hardpoint (LT)
-- 1 missile hardpoint (RT)
And for the -5S:
-- 8 energy hardpoints (x1 HD, x1 CT, x2 LA, x3 RT, x1 LT)
-- 1 ballistic hardpoint (LT)
-- 1 missile hardpoint (RA)

On the other hand, the number of variants that would be viable in terms of gameplay potentially becomes smaller:
-- the -3E and -3MC are essentially "the same 'Mech",
-- all but the -3M could be easily made into the -3Q, and
-- each of the -3S and -5S could be easily made into each of the -3E and -3Q.
This leaves the -3M, -3S, -5S, and the "Reinsblatt" as those that cannot be exactly replicated with each other.

Another issue with the Banshee, especially anything not the -3S or -5S, is its relatively heavy dependence on melee as a primary means of offense - with "advanced melee" not slated to become available until Solaris is implemented (if at all), several variants of the Banshee (especially the "Reinsblatt") would lose a key part of their capabilities.

Your thoughts?


#1442 Odanan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:59 PM

My thoughts are: dang, you said it all.

I just want to add the Zeus is (mainly) an energy boat for the same tonnage of another energy boat (Awesome).
But it is more iconic (semi-Battlemaster look) and hardpoint balanced than the Banshee.

Banshee's greatest asset in its tonnage.

#1443 Lagfest

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 06:49 PM

At this point we need a Assault that is a GUNBOAT!
WE already have M+L X2 and an atlas.

Needs more DAKKA

#1444 Zaptruder

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:29 PM

New one!

Locust with a tie fighter cockpit, just for you Odanon.

Posted Image

#1445 Strum Wealh

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostLagfest, on 03 January 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

At this point we need a Assault that is a GUNBOAT!
WE already have M+L X2 and an atlas.

Needs more DAKKA

I would argue that the Banshee would be better-suited to that task than any other viable choice.

If the -3S and/or -5S (a minimum of 10 hardpoints each) were to be implemented, it stands to reason that the other variants would be granted a number of additional hardpoints to make them more comparable.

For example, the -3E could be implemented with five energy hardpoints (one in the head, and four in the right-torso) and five ballistic hardpoints (all five in the left-torso) for a total of ten hardpoints.

Likewise, the -3Q could be implemented with one energy hardpoint in the head and eight (yes, eight!) ballistic hardpoints in the right-torso for a total of nine hardpoints.
Imagine a 95-ton 'Mech with eight (8) ballistic hardpoints (with all of them in one location, no less) - how's that for a ballistics boat?! :P ;)

By contrast, the -3M could have nine energy hardpoints - one in the head, and four in each side-torso.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 04 January 2013 - 09:21 AM.


#1446 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

@ Zaptruder

Coming from someone with absolutely NO artistic talent, your designs are amazing. Hope you don't mind, but I am saving every one :P. Keep 'em coming ;). Any more Unseen would be great (pick any in the original 3025 book imo). You'd do them all justice.

#1447 Zaptruder

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:09 PM

@cdlord

Glad to hear that you're enjoying them!

It's been a lot of fun drawing them. And absolutely, save the pieces for whatever (but if you do repost them elsewhere, remember to credit). I plan on going back and redrawing them properly and doing them up in basic 3D and then doing a drawover at a level of detail similar to the official MWO art. It might be somewhat ambitious and beyond the scope of my skills, but won't know till I try.

#1448 Name140704

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:15 PM

Next mech? Grasshopper, clint, panther.


choose one

#1449 Butane9000

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostNARCoMAN, on 03 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Next mech? Grasshopper, clint, panther.


choose one


None.

Zeus of Banshee. Those or [Censored]? <- For shame!

By the way, kudos to you Strum for your excellent break downs. But as it stands the Banshee has "more" to add then the Zeus does by virtue or it's weight class and role. The Zeus can and most likely will be implemented later as an alternative to the Awesome.

Edited by Butane9000, 03 January 2013 - 10:13 PM.


#1450 Sandslice

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostSennin, on 03 January 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:


I like your sketches Zap but if it resembles anything of the original design (and it does) then it's subject to a lawsuit from "The Company That Shall Not Be Named." (Cause I might be sick if I mention it.) :P

No it won't, unless Sunrise is that company. The Battlemaster is from Dougram. ;)

Full list of those follows:

Spoiler


#1451 Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:02 AM

View PostNARCoMAN, on 03 January 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Next mech?


choose one


Banshee! ;)

#1452 Odanan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 04:18 AM

View PostZaptruder, on 03 January 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

New one!

Locust with a tie fighter cockpit, just for you Odanon.

Posted Image


I would name mine the Mosquito!

BTW: loved it!

#1453 Zaptruder

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:07 AM

View PostOdanan, on 04 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:


I would name mine the Mosquito!

BTW: loved it!


Glad you enjoyed it. But you can't name that the Mosquito. That name is reserved for things that sting. Like this Stinger.

Posted Image

Original and Reseen for reference:
Posted ImagePosted Image

Edited by Zaptruder, 04 January 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#1454 KinLuu

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

Very nice little stinger. I like the paintjob aswell.

#1455 Name140704

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:16 PM

I make my predictions from the MW tactic list, since it's the same except for Highlander, Clint, Grasshopper, Panther, Cataphract

#1456 Khan Hallis

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:52 PM

I'll bet on the Banshee.
There are only 2 weight classes that have yet to be filled. 55 and 95 ton.
There are almost no mechs in the 55 ton bracket meeting the requirements for inclusion (3 variants over time) in the current age, but the Banshee does meet that easily.

#1457 Wintersdark

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostKhan Hallis, on 04 January 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I'll bet on the Banshee.
There are only 2 weight classes that have yet to be filled. 55 and 95 ton.
There are almost no mechs in the 55 ton bracket meeting the requirements for inclusion (3 variants over time) in the current age, but the Banshee does meet that easily.
I'd really prefer they add a JJ capable medium, even if that requires taking creative license with variants. I understand they need 3 for the xp system, but we need a solid JJ medium more than another assault right now.

#1458 Odanan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostZaptruder, on 04 January 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:


Glad you enjoyed it. But you can't name that the Mosquito. That name is reserved for things that sting. Like this Stinger.

Original and Reseen for reference:



Very cool, specially the legs and torso.
But I find the head too different from the Unseen and the Reseen and I don't like these "hand guns" (I prefer something like that arm gun you made for the Battlemaster).

#1459 Odanan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 04 January 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

I'd really prefer they add a JJ capable medium, even if that requires taking creative license with variants. I understand they need 3 for the xp system, but we need a solid JJ medium more than another assault right now.


Although I don't usually like the mech, the Clint would fit very well as fast/mobile medium mech. Few variants, but enough for the game.

Variants (speculation):

----------------------------------------------------
Clint CLNT-1-2R (AC/10, Medium Laser)

LA
LT
CT 1e (recommended 2e)
H
RT
RA 1b (recommended 3b)

----------------------------------------------------
Clint CLNT-2-3T (AC/5, 2x Medium Laser, Jump)

LA
LT 1e (recommended 2e)
CT 1e (recommended 2e)
H
RT
RA 1b

----------------------------------------------------
Clint CLNT-2-4T (2x AC/2, Medium Laser)

LA
LT
CT 1e
H
RT
RA 2b (recommended 4b)

----------------------------------------------------
Clint CLNT-2-3U (ER PPC, 2x Medium Pulse Laser, Jump, DHS)

LA
LT 1e
CT 1e (recommended 2e)
H
RT
RA 1e (recommended 2e)

#1460 Wintersdark

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostOdanan, on 04 January 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:


Although I don't usually like the mech, the Clint would fit very well as fast/mobile medium mech. Few variants, but enough for the game.

It would be a great addition to the game. I'd rather see a heavier jump medium (as adding the Cicada jump variant can fill the light-jump-medium role), though - something to bridge the enormous gap between the Jenner and the Catapult in terms of jump capable mechs.

Particularly as there's also the Cataphract and ("soon") Highlander for heavier jump capable mechs, it just seems so damn bizarre that there's no mediums at all with jump jets.

I'd figure they'd be pushing a lot harder to fill that void.





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