20517 replies to this topic

[Virlutris]

Speed's only an issue if you're committed to having the MASC locked on the Fire Moth, and if you refuse to use options already available and previously used in-game.

Otherwise, if you remove the MASC Mk1 (my favored option) or remove its speed bonus (Pariah's "victimless crime" proposal, keeping accel/deccel boost), the stock engine "only" makes it the fastest unskilled much in the game, well within hitreg tolerance.

Under the current system, a slight quirk to top speed (SMN has had a boost) brings back in line with the old 171kph speed limit for max-engines Commies.

Under skill tree, it's even easier: limit the amount of speed tweak nodes available to keep it under the netcode speed limit for hitreg, whether it's removed or adjusted.

It's doable, with solutions already available or previously used elsewhere. No imagination required, just some ingenuity.

[Pariah Devalis]

Virlutris, on 10 April 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

Speed's only an issue if you're committed to having the MASC locked on the Fire Moth, and if you refuse to use options already available and previously used in-game.

Otherwise, if you remove the MASC Mk1 (my favored option) or remove its speed bonus (Pariah's "victimless crime" proposal, keeping accel/deccel boost), the stock engine "only" makes it the fastest unskilled much in the game, well within hitreg tolerance.

Under the current system, a slight quirk to top speed (SMN has had a boost) brings back in line with the old 171kph speed limit for max-engines Commies.

Under skill tree, it's even easier: limit the amount of speed tweak nodes available to keep it under the netcode speed limit for hitreg, whether it's removed or adjusted.

It's doable, with solutions already available or previously used elsewhere. No imagination required, just some ingenuity.

Victimless Crime might actually work for the Flea, come to think of it..... It uses the IS MASC MK1, right?

[Virlutris]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 April 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Victimless Crime might actually work for the Flea, come to think of it..... It uses the IS MASC MK1, right?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/flea
http://www.sarna.net...ignal_Circuitry

Yes on the MASC I, because it's Tonnage divided by 20, rounded up, same tonnage as the designation.

I think, given battlemech customizability and engine caps, it's a touch different than the Fire Moth's locked cXL200. But it has the same base speed as the Raven, so we'd end up with what? The equivalent of an XL160 or so? It would absolutely benefit from some speed boost, but I left my calculations in my other cooling jacket so I couldn't tell you how much.

I think Flea's Victimless Crime would be more like theft and less like the grand theft required for the Fire Moth. Each needs a different approach due to battlemech/omnimech construction rules, but the solutions for both have already been used. Victimless Crime is fundamentally a tuning pass on MASC I. It's been done before on the accel/deccel rates and the cooldown rates.

Victimless Crime would require a tuning pass for the speed boost, either removing it outright, or reducing it so it plays within the limitations of the netcode. (Edit: I don't know how many 20-ton IS mechs use it. Anything with a higher hypothetical engine cap my necessitate removing the boost from the equipment altogether for balance, which might be a pain. Mercury has the clues: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mercury)

I'd like to unlock it on Firemoth even if its speed boost is removed so it can be used. Kind of a "we know it's not full-powered, so we won't force you to lug that ton around." On Flea it would already be unlocked "because battlemech."

Wheeeeeeeeee÷eeeeeee brainstorming!

Edited by Virlutris, 10 April 2017 - 03:28 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Virlutris, on 10 April 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/flea
http://www.sarna.net...ignal_Circuitry

Yes on the MASC I, because it's Tonnage divided by 20, rounded up, same tonnage as the designation.

I think, given battlemech customizability and engine caps, it's a touch different than the Fire Moth's locked cXL200. But it has the same base speed as the Raven, so we'd end up with what? The equivalent of an XL160 or so? It would absolutely benefit from some speed boost, but I left my calculations in my other cooling jacket so I couldn't tell you how much.

Actually, it has the same base speed as the speed of light. 162.0 KPH base speed. With speed tweak, it puts it at around 174. Even without the speed boost of MASC, the sucker is stupid fast. That said, while I think a MASC MK1 that only offered acceleration, deceleration, and turning boosts would be potentially worthwhile, I could understand how it could be viewed as shedable weight. The question is if PGI, who won't even unlock the AP in the MLX, would be willing to unlock it. I mean, I'd take 1 ton of armor for the mech. I mean, it kinda needs it, anyways.

Quote

I think Flea's Victimless Crime would be more like theft and less like the grand theft required for the Fire Moth. Each needs a different approach due to battlemech/omnimech construction rules, but the solutions for both have already been used. Victimless Crime is fundamentally a tuning pass on MASC I. It's been done before on the accel/deccel rates and the cooldown rates.

Victimless Crime would require a tuning pass for the speed boost, either removing it outright, or reducing it so it plays within the limitations of the netcode. (Edit: I don't know how many 20-ton IS mechs use it. Anything with a higher hypothetical engine cap my necessitate removing the boost from the equipment altogether for balance, which might be a pain. Mercury has the clues: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mercury)

I'd like to unlock it on Firemoth even if its speed boost is removed so it can be used. Kind of a "we know it's not full-powered, so we won't force you to lug that ton around." On Flea it would already be unlocked "because battlemech."

In which case, it would function like an "optional quirk device" that could give you on demand mobility buffs, at the expense of one ton. Being unlocked, however, I think that could be an interesting mechanism to have for the mech.

Quote

Wheeeeeeeeee÷eeeeeee brainstorming!

Yay constructive exchange of ideas on a forum!

[Virlutris]

Pariah Devalis, on 10 April 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

Actually, it has the same base speed as the speed of light. 162.0 KPH base speed. With speed tweak, it puts it at around 174. Even without the speed boost of MASC, the sucker is stupid fast. That said, while I think a MASC MK1 that only offered acceleration, deceleration, and turning boosts would be potentially worthwhile, I could understand how it could be viewed as shedable weight. The question is if PGI, who won't even unlock the AP in the MLX, would be willing to unlock it. I mean, I'd take 1 ton of armor for the mech. I mean, it kinda needs it, anyways.


In which case, it would function like an "optional quirk device" that could give you on demand mobility buffs, at the expense of one ton. Being unlocked, however, I think that could be an interesting mechanism to have for the mech.


Yay constructive exchange of ideas on a forum!

Am I misreading that stock 120-rated engine on the Flea? I readily acknowledge that I rely on Sarna when I'm smartphoning the forums. Is there more to the story. Variant(s) with a bigger engine?

I mean, if some variants have bigger engines, then it just means that the chassis itself becomes a microcosm of the "How much do we victimize the victim of The Victimless Crime" question. Some would have relatively low engine caps (and need moar speed) and some other variants would have speed limit issues due to their higher engine cap.

Edits: punctuation, clarity

Edited by Virlutris, 11 April 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Virlutris, on 11 April 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Am I misreading that stock 120-rated engine on the Flea? I readily acknowledge that I rely on Sarna when I'm smartphoning the forums. Is there more to the story. Variant(s) with a bigger engine?

I mean, if some variants have bigger engines, then it just means that the chassis itself becomes a microcosm of the "How much do we victimize the victim of The Victimless Crime" question. Some would have relatively low engine caps (and need moar speed) and some other variants would have speed limit issues due to their higher engine cap.

Edits: punctuation, clarity

Na. I just misread your reply. I thought you were erroneously saying the Fire Moth was slower.

[Odanan]

Virlutris, on 11 April 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

Am I misreading that stock 120-rated engine on the Flea? I readily acknowledge that I rely on Sarna when I'm smartphoning the forums. Is there more to the story. Variant(s) with a bigger engine?

I mean, if some variants have bigger engines, then it just means that the chassis itself becomes a microcosm of the "How much do we victimize the victim of The Victimless Crime" question. Some would have relatively low engine caps (and need moar speed) and some other variants would have speed limit issues due to their higher engine cap.

The problem with the Flea was never the speed (it is a quite slow mech for a light) - even with enlarged engine and MWO's MASC active it shouldn't break much the speed limit. If it does, PGI can always limit the max engine.

The problem with the Flea is that it is too similar with the Locust, even in the looks. I have the conviction PGI showed the Flea's concept art before they decided to bite the bullet and release the first Unseen mechs (Project Phoenix). The Flea was a Locust surrogate - and with the release of the original, the necessity of Flea reduced to zero.

Also, Russ expressed several times in the Twitter and Townhalls that PGI has no plans to release the Flea. And don't ask me the sources, please. You need to trust me on that.

[Hollow Earth]

tbh the time spent on the Flea would be better spent classic-ing the Wasp and Stinger or making MASC variant Locusts. even i myself would likely never want to pilot one. but it can increase the chances of being the Battletech game.

[Virlutris]

Odanan, on 11 April 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

The problem with the Flea was never the speed (it is a quite slow mech for a light) - even with enlarged engine and MWO's MASC active it shouldn't break much the speed limit. If it does, PGI can always limit the max engine.

The problem with the Flea is that it is too similar with the Locust, even in the looks. I have the conviction PGI showed the Flea's concept art before they decided to bite the bullet and release the first Unseen mechs (Project Phoenix). The Flea was a Locust surrogate - and with the release of the original, the necessity of Flea reduced to zero.

Also, Russ expressed several times in the Twitter and Townhalls that PGI has no plans to release the Flea. And don't ask me the sources, please. You need to trust me on that.

Absolutely. I've heard all the same podcasts and read the same posts. I agree with everything in your post, and tend to answer direct questions the same way.

I'm running with this in a practical direction though, because I'm tired of people dismissing the possibility of the Fire Moth without thinking it through. The Flea becomes useful for working through the thought process of why/if/how we could actually do it.

For my part, the Flea is relevant in the larger context of a discussion about MASC. Of course, so is the Mercury. I find the Flea useful because it gives a different set of parameters with which to flesh out the discussion. I never really engaged it outside of that framework, though I also didn't explicitly say so. Keeping posts as short as possible, and all that.

To my mind, ready-made examples (like "Well, in this case ...") are a necessary ingredient in discussions about "How could/would/should it work?" The Flea makes a nice counter balance to the Firemoth for discussion purposes, as anything else that's 20 tons and has MASC will necessarily fall between the parameters they represent.

I think we can have the Firemoth. But I can't force the dev team to implement tools they already have available. They've got to decide they want to do that, or this goes no further than being an awesome and worthwhile discussion, rather than the catalyst for a practical solution that nets us a super nifty 'mech.




Edits: spelling

Edited by Virlutris, 11 April 2017 - 09:29 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Virlutris, on 11 April 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

Absolutely. I've heard all the same podcasts and read the same posts. I agree with everything in your post, and tend to answer direct questions the same way.

I'm running with this in a practical direction though, because I'm tired of people dismissing the possibility of the Fire Moth without thinking it through. The Flea becomes useful for working through the thought process of why/if/how we could actually do it.

For my part, the Flea is relevant in the larger context of a discussion about MASC. Of course, so is the Mercury. I find the Flea useful because it gives a different set of parameters with which to flesh out the discussion. I never really engaged it outside of that framework, though I also didn't explicitly say so. Keeping posts as short as possible, and all that.

To my mind, ready-made examples (like "Well, in this case ...") are a necessary ingredient in discussions about "How could/would/should it work?" The Flea makes a nice counter balance to the Firemoth for discussion purposes, as anything else that's 20 tons and has MASC will necessarily fall between the parameters they represent.

I think we can have the Firemoth. But I can't force the dev team to implement tools they already have available. They've got to decide they want to do that, or this goes no further than being an awesome and worthwhile discussion, rather than the catalyst for a practical solution that nets us a super nifty 'mech.




Edits: spelling

Damn, though. Can you imagine the acceleration rate on a 20 ton mech with a large engine and MASC?

You'd probably suffer whiplash in your computer chair IRL.....

[Odanan]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Damn, though. Can you imagine the acceleration rate on a 20 ton mech with a large engine and MASC?

You'd probably suffer whiplash in your computer chair IRL.....

And wouldn't it be glorious?

[Odanan]

And if piloting a 20 tons (smaller than the Spider!) mech at ludicrous speed isn't enough, consider that same mech has ECM (Fire Moth B and "Aletha") and 11 energy hardpoints (9 from the Fire Moth H).

Fire Moth variants in MWO should be:

Fire Moth Prime:
LA 2e
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 1m
RA 1m

Fire Moth A:
LA AMS
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 1m
RA 1e

Fire Moth C:
LA 1m
LT
CT MASC
H
RT AMS
RA 1m

Fire Moth D:
LA 2e
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 2e
RA 2e

Fire Moth H: (introduced in 3060)
LA 4e (4 heavy small lasers)
LT
CT MASC
H
RT
RA 5e (5 heavy small lasers)

Fire Moth Aletha "hero" configuration: (introduced in 3068)
LA 3e
LT ECM
CT MASC
H
RT
RA 1e

PS: I left the Fire Moth B out of the list because it has AP Pods (easily replaced by armor, though, like in the Hellbringer Prime) and because it has ECM in a different location of the Aletha's (that would open the weird possibility of a mech having 2 ECMs)

Edited by Odanan, 11 April 2017 - 05:17 PM.

[Odanan]

Changes on the new Clan hero mechs, reducing the "P2W factor".

Also, they showed us the new omni configurations to be released in August - and those are nice!

Edited by Odanan, 13 April 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[CK16]

Not happy till Mad Dog D _._

[Odanan]

CK16, on 13 April 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

Not happy till Mad Dog D _._

Not wanting to spoil the surprise, but I bet the MDD-D will be one of the Loyalty Reward mechs.

[Odanan]

Also, Gargoyle with 16 energy hardpoints!!! (+1 missile) For C-Bills!

#gargoylekingofthebattlefield

...

Oh, and Arctic Cheetah with 8 machineguns (+2 energy), with the hero. Or 6 machineguns + 4 energy! Do. Want.

Wait, it gets better! Mist Linx with 8 machineguns + 4 energy!! Screw you Arctic Cheetah.

[Odanan]

For those who want the Piranha in MWo, we will have a taste of it with the 8 mgs Mist Lynx. And it's a flying Piranha! Like in that horrible movie from 1981 (God, I'm old).

[Zergling]

Odanan, on 13 April 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

For those who want the Piranha in MWo, we will have a taste of it with the 8 mgs Mist Lynx. And it's a flying Piranha! Like in that horrible movie from 1981 (God, I'm old).

I think the Arctic Cheetah will be better suited to running 8x HMG than the Mist Lynx, due to being able to run 4 tons of ammo (or 3 tons plus ECM) versus just 2 tons when running 8x HMG on the Mist Lynx.

I predict the Mist Lynx will be running around with regular MGs or LMGs instead.

Edited by Zergling, 13 April 2017 - 05:49 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Zergling, on 13 April 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

I think the Arctic Cheetah will be better suited to running 8x HMG than the Mist Lynx, due to being able to run 4 tons of ammo (or 3 tons plus ECM) versus just 2 tons when running 8x HMG on the Mist Lynx.

I predict the Mist Lynx will be running around with regular MGs or LMGs instead.

8x MG and 4x uER probably. Dakkadakkapewpew.

[Ovion]

Oh yeah, I made a thing: