20517 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 13 April 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

For those who want the Piranha in MWo, we will have a taste of it with the 8 mgs Mist Lynx. And it's a flying Piranha! Like in that horrible movie from 1981 (God, I'm old).

Truer than you might think, considering it was well established that viably the Piranha will probably only be able to field about 8 MG's and still carry modest energy backup with suitable ammo stores. The jump jets and fixed probe eat up most of the benefit of the 5 ton gain, so weaponry-wise the MLX-G will be carrying about the same payload as the base Piranha.

Of course, unlike the Piranha most of the weaponry is still in the arms, so there is that to take into consideration; and it will certainly have issues because of it. Think of how the MLX looks with 3 hardpoints on the arms now . . . 4 is going to make them virtually impossible to miss if you're actually aiming . . . oh . . . and people will aim for them if it shapes up to be a terror.

On the other hand, IF PGI is going back and doing another geometry pass on mechs (given the start with the Quickdraw and Victor as per the Roadmap), then maybe we'll see the Mist Lynx's arms get MGs and Lasers that look more like the ones on the LA of the Uller and less like the massive boxes it has now. That could make a HUGE difference for the mech in general, let alone the new omnipods.

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Arctic Cheetah on the other hand . . . not even remotely comparable to the Piranha, so I hope no one tries to do it. Too much extra mobility and survivability in combination with the tonnage to truly put all of those hardpoints to use with plenty of ammunition.

That thing WILL be a terror; and yet the poor Spider 5K and Locust 1V/3V were limited on their ballistic hardpoints because 6+ MG's was just too terrifying for Russ to bear . . . I can only hope he was serious when he said that looking at the Javelin is making him seriously consider revisiting the older chassis and rebalancing them up to new standards as much as possible.

[Odanan]

Sereglach, on 13 April 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

Arctic Cheetah on the other hand . . . not even remotely comparable to the Piranha, so I hope no one tries to do it. Too much extra mobility and survivability in combination with the tonnage to truly put all of those hardpoints to use with plenty of ammunition.

Oh, I can assure you people will "try" it... >:-)

[Ovion]

Sereglach, on 13 April 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

Truer than you might think, considering it was well established that viably the Piranha will probably only be able to field about 8 MG's and still carry modest energy backup with suitable ammo stores.

An optimized 20T Clan battlemech with an XL180 (stock Piranha engine) has 7.5T and 25 slots free.
12 CMG is 3T, 12S.
You can then take either: 3CERML -or- 3CSPL (with 1.5T MG ammo), or 3 CERSL (with 3T MG ammo)

Personally, I'd likely take the latter, which can sustain fire for roughly 1 minute, which I think is pretty viable honestly.

Edited by Ovion, 14 April 2017 - 01:20 PM.

[Sereglach]

Ovion, on 14 April 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

An optimized 20T Clan battlemech with an XL180 (stock Piranha engine) has 7.5T and 25 slots free.
12 CMG is 3T, 12S.
You can then take either: 3CERML -or- 3CSPL (with 1.5T MG ammo), or 3 CERSL (with 3T MG ammo)

Personally, I'd likely take the latter, which can sustain fire for roughly 1 minute, which I think is pretty viable honestly.

SSW stripped Piranha with 67/69 armor, FF, Endo, XL-180, and SHS is 26 crits free and 7 tons.

In MWO any C-ER anything isn't going to tolerate SHS, so you're already dumping 3 more crits slots for DHS, so down to 23 crits. Thankfully, crits aren't a big deal here on this build. 23 should be more than enough.

However, we're already .5 tons behind what you're saying; and for a 20 ton mech that really matters.

12 C-MG is 3 tons, yes, and that brings us down to 4 tons available. That means your builds are now at 1 ton or 2.5 tons of ammunition on a 12 C-MG build. Either that or you're sacrificing some of that incredibly precious backup firepower . . . or you're stripping armor from your arms . . . which is where most of your backup firepower is located.

1 ton of MG ammo puts out about a whopping 200 damage if every shot hits. No one here can believably tell me that their aim is flawless and that they'll 100% of the time hit one component on a mech with infallible accuracy. This is especially true with the COF it still has (and every MG having their own COF each shot), the speed you're moving, the short optimal range of the weapon, and the fact that the enemy isn't just going to sit there and let you kill them. Therefore that damage WILL be spread and mitigated.

I don't see your original builds (especially if you're shedding armor to get that 7.5 tons or the calculations were just off) as being much of a viable build, especially with the incredibly lackluster backup weapons you'll be carrying. At a bare minimum you'd probably need to dump 2 of those MGs to get back a half ton for 3 C-ERSL and 3 tons of ammo with maximum armor. Otherwise you just end up with a quick-burn kamikaze mech . . . or someone who sits around bored until towards the end of the fight.

[Ovion]

Sereglach, on 14 April 2017 - 03:00 PM, said:

SSW stripped Piranha with 67/69 armor, FF, Endo, XL-180, and SHS is 26 crits free and 7 tons. In MWO any C-ER anything isn't going to tolerate SHS, so you're already dumping 3 more crits slots for DHS, so down to 23 crits. Thankfully, crits aren't a big deal here on this build. 23 should be more than enough. However, we're already .5 tons behind what you're saying; and for a 20 ton mech that really matters. 12 C-MG is 3 tons, yes, and that brings us down to 4 tons available. That means your builds are now at 1 ton or 2.5 tons of ammunition on a 12 C-MG build. Either that or you're sacrificing some of that incredibly precious backup firepower . . . or you're stripping armor from your arms . . . which is where most of your backup firepower is located. 1 ton of MG ammo puts out about a whopping 200 damage if every shot hits. No one here can believably tell me that their aim is flawless and that they'll 100% of the time hit one component on a mech with infallible accuracy. This is especially true with the COF it still has (and every MG having their own COF each shot), the speed you're moving, the short optimal range of the weapon, and the fact that the enemy isn't just going to sit there and let you kill them. Therefore that damage WILL be spread and mitigated. I don't see your original builds (especially if you're shedding armor to get that 7.5 tons or the calculations were just off) as being much of a viable build, especially with the incredibly lackluster backup weapons you'll be carrying. At a bare minimum you'd probably need to dump 2 of those MGs to get back a half ton for 3 C-ERSL and 3 tons of ammo with maximum armor. Otherwise you just end up with a quick-burn kamikaze mech . . . or someone who sits around bored until towards the end of the fight.

Go check using a Locust - max armour, but 5/1/5 arm/head/arm armour (as with the locust, the arms will be small, and hard to hit, and even then mounting little weaponry on the Piranha, and the Head Hitbox will be near nonexistent), endo, ferro, XL180 leaves you with 7.5T free.

It's a whopping 11.4DPS, for up to 50 seconds, for a potential 570 damage off the MG's alone, for no heat.
Then if using 3 CERSL, that's 4.62DPS, for a total of 16.02DPS for a sustained 50 seconds (though like 30-40 short bursts) then 4.62 after that, on a small fast profile.

I'm not saying it'll be something that eats enemy teams - it's not meant to be, it's a 20T light, but it can quite viably carry 12MG's, and do well enough with that.

I know that I would immediately put cash down for a Piranha, and it would be great fun to play.

[Sereglach]

Ovion, on 14 April 2017 - 05:19 PM, said:

Go check using a Locust - max armour, but 5/1/5 arm/head/arm armour (as with the locust, the arms will be small, and hard to hit, and even then mounting little weaponry on the Piranha, and the Head Hitbox will be near nonexistent), endo, ferro, XL180 leaves you with 7.5T free.

It's a whopping 11.4DPS, for up to 50 seconds, for a potential 570 damage off the MG's alone, for no heat.
Then if using 3 CERSL, that's 4.62DPS, for a total of 16.02DPS for a sustained 50 seconds (though like 30-40 short bursts) then 4.62 after that, on a small fast profile.

I'm not saying it'll be something that eats enemy teams - it's not meant to be, it's a 20T light, but it can quite viably carry 12MG's, and do well enough with that.

I know that I would immediately put cash down for a Piranha, and it would be great fun to play.

Really? Making the same assumptions about hitboxes that everyone does and just assuming that your build will magically work in that sense. That's a bad move, especially with larger humanoid arms that will be housing most of your energy hardpoints on the Piranha prime. These are not tiny arms that I'd shunt all of the armor off of.



I'm fully willing to expect and suspect that the arms, with a weapon mounted, will not be unlike the Koshi/Mist Lynx arms. After all, look at the artwork and mini and then tell me that it has small arms. The energy hardpoints on those arms are huge; and we're talking humanoid arms . . . NOT little tiny fins that barely exist.

Those will be arms that will likely be taking hits and probably vanish from the mech in many a fight . . . which is where most of your backup firepower is housed. Therefore I'd put my builds stock in solid armor and either solid ammo stores or torso-housed weapons.

I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't put down cash for a mech if they really want it; and I'm certainly not saying that it'll be a terrible mech. However, some of your basis for making a viable build is highly and poorly placed . . . because it's making assumptions about ART. That is something which we all know is subject to the whims of PGI within modest confines of the source artwork.

[Ovion]

Not magically assuming, hedging bets.
20/25T mechs are small - very, so even 'large' arms, won't be that big - to the point I think that you could get away with 5 (especially with any base armour buffs / quirks it may receive) combined with the internal structure. (based on the existing 20 and 25T mechs)

While yes it's backup weapons, I'll be mounting CERSL there so it's less of a concern for me, and honestly, with the facetime required for MG's, even burst firing chances are good you'll still die outright before losing those arms.

[Ovion]

[TheArisen]

Critical Rocket talking about some mechs for the IS that would help boost the IS to Clan levels.

[Odanan]

TheArisen, on 17 April 2017 - 12:12 AM, said:

Critical Rocket talking about some mechs for the IS that would help boost the IS to Clan levels.

A lot of good looking mechs (and a hideous one), but I think the author missed the mark not considering the nostalgia factor (which is as important as the mech efficiency).

Also, stock firepower it's not the same as MWO (mechlab) firepower.

[Virlutris]

Sereglach, on 13 April 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

Truer than you might think, considering it was well established that viably the Piranha will probably only be able to field about 8 MG's and still carry modest energy backup with suitable ammo stores. The jump jets and fixed probe eat up most of the benefit of the 5 ton gain, so weaponry-wise the MLX-G will be carrying about the same payload as the base Piranha.

Of course, unlike the Piranha most of the weaponry is still in the arms, so there is that to take into consideration; and it will certainly have issues because of it. Think of how the MLX looks with 3 hardpoints on the arms now . . . 4 is going to make them virtually impossible to miss if you're actually aiming . . . oh . . . and people will aim for them if it shapes up to be a terror.

On the other hand, IF PGI is going back and doing another geometry pass on mechs (given the start with the Quickdraw and Victor as per the Roadmap), then maybe we'll see the Mist Lynx's arms get MGs and Lasers that look more like the ones on the LA of the Uller and less like the massive boxes it has now. That could make a HUGE difference for the mech in general, let alone the new omnipods.

---------------------------------------------------------

Arctic Cheetah on the other hand . . . not even remotely comparable to the Piranha, so I hope no one tries to do it. Too much extra mobility and survivability in combination with the tonnage to truly put all of those hardpoints to use with plenty of ammunition.

That thing WILL be a terror; and yet the poor Spider 5K and Locust 1V/3V were limited on their ballistic hardpoints because 6+ MG's was just too terrifying for Russ to bear . . . I can only hope he was serious when he said that looking at the Javelin is making him seriously consider revisiting the older chassis and rebalancing them up to new standards as much as possible.

Odanan, on 14 April 2017 - 04:48 AM, said:

Oh, I can assure you people will "try" it... >:-)

I'm totally going to run a 6MG Cheetah. Probably with cERMLs/MPLs on the torsos to start.

There are no builds that match the SPL murder-pulse build, and few enough that are sufficiently effective to grind with for variety. I'm pretty sure I've still only mastered one of my 4 Wave 3 Cheetahs. One of them is totally going to get the Upgraded Ember/SDR-5K MG finisher build. New pods, new build, minimal assembly required.

Edited by Virlutris, 17 April 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[Odanan]

Mark my words: 2 weeks until the next big thing.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 20 April 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

Mark my words: 2 weeks until the next big thing.

So long as it isn't the Annihilator the IS should be due for a good chassis sometime.... oh wait... we got the Annihilator coming, maybe we'll see something decent to good this time for the IS....

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 20 April 2017 - 04:15 AM, said:

Mark my words: 2 weeks until the next big thing.

Like a Civil War Mech pack actually featuring Mechs which had a notable role in the Civil War? Now that would be something.

Metus regem, on 20 April 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

So long as it isn't the Annihilator the IS should be due for a good chassis sometime.... oh wait... we got the Annihilator coming, maybe we'll see something decent to good this time for the IS....

And then, we get the Hollander.

[Metus regem]

FLG 01, on 20 April 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Like a Civil War Mech pack actually featuring Mechs which had a notable role in the Civil War? Now that would be something.




And then, we get the Hollander.

....

I really need to make my sig "We can't fix stupid."

The Hollander would be next to useless in MWO, it also begs the question would they use the BZK-G series or F series as the base model? As the G series is 35t and the F series is 45t....

I mean for all the times that I hear that my pet Clan Mech (The Coyotl) wouldn't be good due to having limited hard points, often being built around a cLPL or cERPPC, how would the Hollander be any better? It is literally the same thing, but worse since it's built around a weapon system with finite ammo supplies and IS tech....

-sigh- If we were to get something interesting from the Civil War erra, I'd like to see the Templar, lots of interesting variants (with some tech problems, like C3 slaves / Master units and crit splitting in one variant) or the Nightstar as far as assault class mechs go, getting into the mediums (my perfered weight class), we've already got the Bushy... so maybe the Enfield or the Lineholder....

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 20 April 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

So long as it isn't the Annihilator the IS should be due for a good chassis sometime.... oh wait... we got the Annihilator coming, maybe we'll see something decent to good this time for the IS....

Infidel! When it comes out, I will challenge you for a duel!

(should I bring 6 UAC5s?)

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 20 April 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

Infidel! When it comes out, I will challenge you for a duel!

(should I bring 6 UAC5s?)

If we're on at the same time, I'll be game for that duel... should be an easy kill, you'll need to expose so much of your mech to be able to shoot due to the distance between cockpit and weapon mounts, coupled with a low engine cap you'll not be doing much peek-an-shoot....

(Should I use my 6xLRM5 MAD Dog or 6xLRM10 MAD dog?)

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 20 April 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

The Hollander would be next to useless in MWO, it also begs the question would they use the BZK-G series or F series as the base model? As the G series is 35t and the F series is 45t....

I mean for all the times that I hear that my pet Clan Mech (The Coyotl) wouldn't be good due to having limited hard points, often being built around a cLPL or cERPPC, how would the Hollander be any better? It is literally the same thing, but worse since it's built around a weapon system with finite ammo supplies and IS tech....

I agree the Hollander has no place in this game (specially the lighter chassis).

Hey, who said Coyotl would have limited hardpoints? PGI would need to invent 4 variants (1 of them hero), so the omnipods and hardpoints can be anything.

As medium Clan omni, there is actually no better choice than the Coyotl (the alternatives are the boring Pouncer, uninspired Mongrel, undergunned Phantom and the possibly underwhelming Black Lanner).

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 20 April 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

(Should I use my 6xLRM5 MAD Dog or 6xLRM10 MAD dog?)

Cheater!

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 20 April 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

I agree the Hollander has no place in this game (specially the lighter chassis).

Hey, who said Coyotl would have limited hardpoints? PGI would need to invent 4 variants (1 of them hero), so the omnipods and hardpoints can be anything.

As medium Clan omni, there is actually no better choice than the Coyotl (the alternatives are the boring Pouncer, uninspired Mongrel, undergunned Phantom and the possibly underwhelming Black Lanner).

I believe it was Gas that along with point out the age of the Coyotl and her being out of production... but hey the freaking Nova is out of production too....

How ever the hard point bit comes from the 2E 2M on the Prime and the 2E 2M on A... granted the second E on the A is mounted in the CT (along with one of the JJ's), means that you could push a 3E 2M or 3M 2E builds... on a mech that would run 121.9km/h post speed tweak and fly almost as well as the Viper isn't bad.

Odanan, on 20 April 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

Cheater!

All is fair in love and war.