20517 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

Requiemking, on 22 April 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

How about no? Neither of those mechs are very good, and saddling each faction with the other's trash is basically a slap in the face to both sides.

First, they are good or not, it remains to be seems.

Second: making those two mechs dual faction a slap in the face because they are bad?That makes no sense. If they are "bad", that's one more reason to give them this bonus.

[Ovion]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 April 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

Why are you counting the Champion LCT-1E separate from the standard version? And the Phoenix LCT-1V (LCT-1V is on there twice)? None of the other 'Mechs seem to have their Champions or Phoenix variants called out.

Well, there's an error - that's probably because this version started life as a list of the mechs I *own*.
Having checked the excel file, I updated the partially complete list of MY mechs with with some new stuff / bits I'd missed, then uploaded that...

I my defence, I've spent the last week with cluster headaches + off my face on painkillers.
I'll rectify certain mistakes now....

Edited by Ovion, 23 April 2017 - 04:45 AM.

[Ovion]

Fixed it.

[Requiemking]

Odanan, on 23 April 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

First, they are good or not, it remains to be seems.

Second: making those two mechs dual faction a slap in the face because they are bad?That makes no sense. If they are "bad", that's one more reason to give them this bonus.

I really hope you don't want me to go into detail about why these two are going to be bad. I've done it already and would really not like to do so again.

That "bonus" is simply going to show that even "OP" Clan tech cannot save a doomed chassis. While it would be a slap in the face, I meant to imply that in a good way, as it's would show the "Clan tech OP" crowd that they are wrong, as no Clan tech, not even the almighty CXL engine, can save the Annihilator, and of course the Knockoff is doomed as well.

[Odanan]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

I really hope you don't want me to go into detail about why these two are going to be bad. I've done it already and would really not like to do so again.

That "bonus" is simply going to show that even "OP" Clan tech cannot save a doomed chassis. While it would be a slap in the face, I meant to imply that in a good way, as it's would show the "Clan tech OP" crowd that they are wrong, as no Clan tech, not even the almighty CXL engine, can save the Annihilator, and of course the Knockoff is doomed as well.

Well, I suppose the Annihilator will receive more quirks then the King Crab, for instance. That can compensate it's speed.

About the Mad cat MK II, I don't see why it would be bad, even without quirks.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 23 April 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Well, I suppose the Annihilator will receive more quirks then the King Crab, for instance. That can compensate it's speed.

About the Mad cat MK II, I don't see why it would be bad, even without quirks.

It's not going to be bad, just to run it a full armour one is going to strip the missiles and most JJ's Turing it into a 5t heavier MAD-IIC hero more or less.

[Requiemking]

Odanan, on 23 April 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Well, I suppose the Annihilator will receive more quirks then the King Crab, for instance. That can compensate it's speed.

About the Mad cat MK II, I don't see why it would be bad, even without quirks.

Here we go again....

The Knockoff is a very bad mech for the following reasons:

1) It's a mobility-based Assault that weighs more than 85 tons, thus meaning that it has to use the infamously useless Class 1 JJs. It also has to spend significantly more tonnage on engine to achieve the same speed as a smaller mech.

2) It's shares the same general body shape as the EBJ, meaning it's hard points are set far apart on the X axis, causing convergence issues at long range.

3) All of it's hardpoints, with the exception of it's missile hardpoints, are set at or below cockpit height, with the cockpit itself being set rather low on the mech, though not as drastically low as the Archer. This means that the Knockoff will have to expose it's entire torso to fire anything but LRMs.

4) It's STs are gigantic. Everything from the laser barrels outwards is going to be ST, making the Knockoff one of the least XL friendly Clan Assaults in game. It's doesn't help that you have to expose all of said giant STs to fire your weapons without hitting the dirt.

5) It's only usefully placed hardpoints, the ST missile hardpoints, are set in the infamously debilitating Micky Mouse ear Missileboxes that plague the Timby and the EBJ.

6) It has a large, wart-like structure on it's back between the Missileboxes, increasing the size of it's already massive torso hitboxes to the point where the only way you can't hit the torso is if you are standing directly under it firing at it's waist. Also, thats not going to disappear when you remove the missiles, thus meaning you give away your position long before you can fire your weapons.

7) It's "Shield" arms will turn into useless nubs unless you feel like offering a portion of your firepower in tribute. Also, those "Shields" cannot protect the Wart on it's back.

8) Since it's a Clan Battlemech, it will either come with no quirks at all, or quirks so bad even the FIRESTARTER would be laughing at it, and the Firestarter's quirks are a bad joke to begin with.

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 23 April 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Well, I suppose the Annihilator will receive more quirks then the King Crab, for instance. That can compensate it's speed.

Its 300 engine cap (instead of the 240 it should have had) is a massive quirk already.
And you know a Mech is going to be underwhelming if you have to hope for quirks in the first place.

[TheArisen]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Here we go again....

The Knockoff is a very bad mech for the following reasons:

1) It's a mobility-based Assault that weighs more than 85 tons, thus meaning that it has to use the infamously useless Class 1 JJs. It also has to spend significantly more tonnage on engine to achieve the same speed as a smaller mech.

2) It's shares the same general body shape as the EBJ, meaning it's hard points are set far apart on the X axis, causing convergence issues at long range.

3) All of it's hardpoints, with the exception of it's missile hardpoints, are set at or below cockpit height, with the cockpit itself being set rather low on the mech, though not as drastically low as the Archer. This means that the Knockoff will have to expose it's entire torso to fire anything but LRMs.

4) It's STs are gigantic. Everything from the laser barrels outwards is going to be ST, making the Knockoff one of the least XL friendly Clan Assaults in game. It's doesn't help that you have to expose all of said giant STs to fire your weapons without hitting the dirt.

5) It's only usefully placed hardpoints, the ST missile hardpoints, are set in the infamously debilitating Micky Mouse ear Missileboxes that plague the Timby and the EBJ.

6) It has a large, wart-like structure on it's back between the Missileboxes, increasing the size of it's already massive torso hitboxes to the point where the only way you can't hit the torso is if you are standing directly under it firing at it's waist. Also, thats not going to disappear when you remove the missiles, thus meaning you give away your position long before you can fire your weapons.

7) It's "Shield" arms will turn into useless nubs unless you feel like offering a portion of your firepower in tribute. Also, those "Shields" cannot protect the Wart on it's back.

8) Since it's a Clan Battlemech, it will either come with no quirks at all, or quirks so bad even the FIRESTARTER would be laughing at it, and the Firestarter's quirks are a bad joke to begin with.

The original faced most of the same concerns and I'm pretty sure it's done well enough. However I do agree the MK2 won't be as good as it's fans hope.

[Karl Streiger]

TheArisen, on 23 April 2017 - 09:44 PM, said:

The original faced most of the same concerns and I'm pretty sure it's done well enough. However I do agree the MK2 won't be as good as it's fans hope.

Well it would be totally ok for the IS

[CK16]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Moronic rambling

[Requiemking]

CK16, on 25 April 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

Go ahead and try. Every single one of the points I brought up are valid points, and unless the Knockoff has some magical advantage that can negate the disadvantages they bring, the Knockoff will never be good unless it gets pre-Rescale level Black Knight quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Requiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

Go ahead and try. Every single one of the points I brought up are valid points, and unless the Knockoff has some magical advantage that can negate the disadvantages they bring, the Knockoff will never be good unless it gets pre-Rescale level Black Knight quirks.

Clan Tech
EBJ type Profile
High mounted arm weapons

And the ability to pack 2x C-Gauss/ERPPC

As long as it has those attributes, I'd be hard pressed to call it "bad", since those pretty much are the key attributes to the current meta?

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 April 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

Clan Tech
EBJ type Profile
High mounted arm weapons

And the ability to pack 2x C-Gauss/ERPPC

As long as it has those attributes, I'd be hard pressed to call it "bad", since those pretty much are the key attributes to the current meta?

Further, while jump jets on a 90 ton mech are terrible, you can, I donno... opt not to take them, and end up with a superior platform for 2x ERPPC 2x Gauss than a Kodiak? No missiles means no missile pods. That means relatively small side torsos, and virtually all the guns are in line with the cockpit with very little overexposure.

[redacted]

All signs point to it being extremely strong, actually. It isn't ideal, as it would be a better 85 ton mech than a 90 ton mech, but that doesn't make it a bad mech by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited by Odanan, 25 April 2017 - 10:07 AM.
Insult

[Metus regem]

CK, the only major issue I foresee for the Mk II in MWO, is the fact that it's fantastic shield arms are also where the bulk of it's fire power is located.... yes they will protect your CT and ST rather well from the side, but they are going to be blown off first meaning you are going to lose the bulk of your firepower... rendering your combat effectiveness down to less than that of a Storm Crow in what will amount to 1-2 alpha's from another assault mech. That is what makes me hope it is going to live up to your expectations, but at the same time keep in mind the realities of playing MWO.... I've done that with my Pixie, Whammy and Bushy thus far, and they have all met or exceeded my expectations for them.

Pariah Devalis, on 25 April 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Further, while jump jets on a 90 ton mech are terrible, you can, I donno... opt not to take them, and end up with a superior platform for 2x ERPPC 2x Gauss than a Kodiak? No missiles means no missile pods. That means relatively small side torsos, and virtually all the guns are in line with the cockpit with very little overexposure.

[redacted]

All signs point to it being extremely strong, actually. It isn't ideal, as it would be a better 85 ton mech than a 90 ton mech, but that doesn't make it a bad mech by any stretch of the imagination.

So, kind of what I've been saying for years about it.....

Edited by Odanan, 25 April 2017 - 10:08 AM.
quote clean-up

[Pariah Devalis]

Metus regem, on 25 April 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

CK, the only major issue I foresee for the Mk II in MWO, is the fact that it's fantastic shield arms are also where the bulk of it's fire power is located.... yes they will protect your CT and ST rather well from the side, but they are going to be blown off first meaning you are going to lose the bulk of your firepower... rendering your combat effectiveness down to less than that of a Storm Crow in what will amount to 1-2 alpha's from another assault mech. That is what makes me hope it is going to live up to your expectations, but at the same time keep in mind the realities of playing MWO.... I've done that with my Pixie, Whammy and Bushy thus far, and they have all met or exceeded my expectations for them.

Funny, though. I expect the arm weapons to go poof with gauss builds, but realistically speaking?

I rather my arm explode than my side torso. Side torso explosions are a serious risk with the Gauss/Peeps KDK, as is. Especially if you can get behind one of them. Oh man, is it fun to instagib one by tickling both ST. :3

Worse case scenario for a single arm explosion is the MKII total firepower is reduced by ~30%. Worst case scenario of a single side torso explosion in a KDK is a staggering ~65% reduction in firepower, if you put both ERPPC in the same arm - plus your total speed and maneuverability is impacted.

Additional benefits of the arm mounted gauss is they can be raised and lowered to hit more targets than a fixed torso hardpoint. Pros and cons.

Even moving away from gauss, quad UAC5 in arm mounts is a lower risk of instant dismemberment, with all the same benefits of the placement of in line with cockpit guns.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 25 April 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Further, while jump jets on a 90 ton mech are terrible, you can, I donno... opt not to take them, and end up with a superior platform for 2x ERPPC 2x Gauss than a Kodiak? No missiles means no missile pods. That means relatively small side torsos, and virtually all the guns are in line with the cockpit with very little overexposure.

[redacted]

All signs point to it being extremely strong, actually. It isn't ideal, as it would be a better 85 ton mech than a 90 ton mech, but that doesn't make it a bad mech by any stretch of the imagination.

Exactly.

Hey, if Requiem dislikes it, that is fine and dandy. Plenty of "ubermechs" I have no use for, myself. But I do ask people to actually try to be objective in evaluating things, especially if they insist on constantly ramming their opinion down peoples throats.

We get it, he doesn't like the "knockoff", blah blah blah. Cool. Free country.

Edited by Odanan, 25 April 2017 - 10:09 AM.
quote clean-up

[Metus regem]

Pariah Devalis, on 25 April 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

Funny, though. I expect the arm weapons to go poof with gauss builds, but realistically speaking?

I rather my arm explode than my side torso. Side torso explosions are a serious risk with the Gauss/Peeps KDK, as is. Especially if you can get behind one of them. Oh man, is it fun to instagib one by tickling both ST. :3

Worse case scenario for a single arm explosion is the MKII total firepower is reduced by ~30%. Worst case scenario of a single side torso explosion in a KDK is a staggering ~65% reduction in firepower, if you put both ERPPC in the same arm - plus your total speed and maneuverability is impacted.

Additional benefits of the arm mounted gauss is they can be raised and lowered to hit more targets than a fixed torso hardpoint. Pros and cons.

Even moving away from gauss, quad UAC5 in arm mounts is a lower risk of instant dismemberment, with all the same benefits of the placement of in line with cockpit guns.

Good, I'm glad that you understand the perpective limitations on the arm heavy weapon builds on the Mk, II, I see a lot of people that had been calling for the Mk. II, entreily miss that level of understanding on the game play realties of MWO, and how they will effect the Mk, II. I have how ever, not once called it a bad mech, just not optimized or living up to what it should have been in Lore.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 25 April 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

CK, the only major issue I foresee for the Mk II in MWO, is the fact that it's fantastic shield arms are also where the bulk of it's fire power is located.... yes they will protect your CT and ST rather well from the side, but they are going to be blown off first meaning you are going to lose the bulk of your firepower...

And if a mech's STs or CT goes first, the point is moot. I always laughed at those who made a big deal about it on mechs like the Victor, for instance. Is it ideal? Perhaps not. But not a big deal.

Especially with a profile like the EBJ/mkII will have...which is a face front and poke/jump design. People will almost certainly be shooting at the nose, so the "shield arms" will be pretty situational to begin with, and any set up for CQB, where the shield arms will be more a thing? Will likely also have the 4 energy hardpoints int eh torso in use.

Think of it like a Marauder or Catapult K2..... you twitch to spread damage across the torsos, and don't really soak with the arms most of the time anyhow.... whereas it does have the added benefit of soaking an attack from the side that may have cost you an ST.... which leaves you in a worse way than losing the arm, anyhow.

Also, a lot of people seem to overlook the tradeoff.... which is.. it allows you to depress and elevate weapons beyond what torso weapons can.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 April 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Requiemking]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 April 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

Clan Tech
EBJ type Profile
High mounted arm weapons

And the ability to pack 2x C-Gauss/ERPPC

As long as it has those attributes, I'd be hard pressed to call it "bad", since those pretty much are the key attributes to the current meta?

What about the Hitbox issues, like for example the giant wart-like structure on it's back that not only heralds exactly where the MK2 is going to poke from, but also is not protected by those arms?
[redacted]

Metus regem, on 25 April 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

CK, the only major issue I foresee for the Mk II in MWO, is the fact that it's fantastic shield arms are also where the bulk of it's fire power is located.... yes they will protect your CT and ST rather well from the side, but they are going to be blown off first meaning you are going to lose the bulk of your firepower... rendering your combat effectiveness down to less than that of a Storm Crow in what will amount to 1-2 alpha's from another assault mech. That is what makes me hope it is going to live up to your expectations, but at the same time keep in mind the realities of playing MWO.... I've done that with my Pixie, Whammy and Bushy thus far, and they have all met or exceeded my expectations for them.

So, kind of what I've been saying for years about it.....

There is also the issue of it having to expose all of it's torso to shoot, 90% of it's torso being ST, it's highest-mounted non-missile weapons being set in line with the lowest edge of the Cockpit, the wart on it's back expanding it's already sizeable torso, ect.

Edited by Odanan, 25 April 2017 - 10:11 AM.
quote clean-up