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BattleMech Balance

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#16061 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:19 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

What about the Hitbox issues, like for example the giant wart-like structure on it's back that not only heralds exactly where the MK2 is going to poke from, but also is not protected by those arms?


Marauder and Marauder IIC have giant back warts, also... and yet... not an issue. So...next desperate scramble to ignore:

1) Clan tech
2) EBJ style hitbox/hardpoint layout
3) High Hardpoints

???? Nothing? OK.

#16062 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:25 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 April 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Marauder and Marauder IIC have giant back warts, also... and yet... not an issue. So...next desperate scramble to ignore:

1) Clan tech
2) EBJ style hitbox/hardpoint layout
3) High Hardpoints

???? Nothing? OK.

1) Only an advantage when it comes to engine, structure, and CGauss. CERPPC's additional damage doesn't payoff the additional heat in my mind, and most other Clan weapons are strictly inferior to their IS counterparts.

2) Not necessarily an advantage. The Knockoff lacks the narrow frontal profile the MADs have, making it easier to isolate and destroy it's bloated hitboxes.

3) What high-mounted Hardpoints? You mean the missileboxes on it's back? Sorry Bishop, but all of other Hardpoints are mounted low on the mech's torso, meaning you have to expose all of the Knockoff's torso to shoot.

#16063 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:31 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

1) Only an advantage when it comes to engine, structure, and CGauss. CERPPC's additional damage doesn't payoff the additional heat in my mind, and most other Clan weapons are strictly inferior to their IS counterparts.

2) Not necessarily an advantage. The Knockoff lacks the narrow frontal profile the MADs have, making it easier to isolate and destroy it's bloated hitboxes.

3) What high-mounted Hardpoints? You mean the missileboxes on it's back? Sorry Bishop, but all of other Hardpoints are mounted low on the mech's torso, meaning you have to expose all of the Knockoff's torso to shoot.

1) "Only an advantage" ....got to stop you right there.... because those are HUGE advantages. Also, Dual CLAN ERPPC/Gauss is the meta for a reason. So ...um...lol?

2) Lol. Seriously? You either need your glasses adjusted, or are really grasping at illusroy straws here, as the MADs are hardly skinny.

3) Um... maybe you need to look at those arms again. Since the missile will be removed from any seriously competitive builds. And the arms are as high as the gauss being used on the ....*gasp* EBJ.

Still flailing, bro?

#16064 Metus regem

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:33 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

1) Only an advantage when it comes to engine, structure, and CGauss. CERPPC's additional damage doesn't payoff the additional heat in my mind, and most other Clan weapons are strictly inferior to their IS counterparts.

2) Not necessarily an advantage. The Knockoff lacks the narrow frontal profile the MADs have, making it easier to isolate and destroy it's bloated hitboxes.

3) What high-mounted Hardpoints? You mean the missileboxes on it's back? Sorry Bishop, but all of other Hardpoints are mounted low on the mech's torso, meaning you have to expose all of the Knockoff's torso to shoot.



1) cLB's are 'better' than the IS version, cUAC/s are better (lighter and smaller) than IS versions (even after tech update), cER class lasers are better than IS versions, cSRM/SSRM/LRM are better per ton than IS versions..... the cXL out classes the LFE and ISXL engine, cEndo and cFF completely outclass IS versions, cDHS is 33% better than IS DHS....

2) We don;t know how big the front profile will actually be, but likely not that much larger than a MAD-IIC or Super Nova, combined with the cXL engine means it's going to have the advantage.

3) High mounted in relation to cockpit position, weampon mounts too hgh, like the archer's missiles or medium lasers is a disadvantage, weapons too low like the arms on the Warhammer is a disadvantage, weapons clustered around the cockpit like the Ebon Jag, Kodiak or Battlemaster are ideal.

#16065 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:38 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 April 2017 - 08:31 AM, said:

1) "Only an advantage" ....got to stop you right there.... because those are HUGE advantages. Also, Dual CLAN ERPPC/Gauss is the meta for a reason. So ...um...lol?

2) Lol. Seriously? You either need your glasses adjusted, or are really grasping at illusroy straws here, as the MADs are hardly skinny.

3) Um... maybe you need to look at those arms again. Since the missile will be removed from any seriously competitive builds. And the arms are as high as the gauss being used on the ....*gasp* EBJ.

Still flailing, bro?

I am looking at those arms. I have a picture loaded up right now. 50% of the arms themselves stick up above the barrel of the Gauss, and the top of the Gauss' barrel aligns with the lowest edge of the MK2's cockpit, and all of it's ST weapons are set below the cockpit. This means that the MK2 will have to expose all of it's torso to fire any of it's non-missile weapons.

Edited by Requiemking, 25 April 2017 - 08:39 AM.


#16066 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 08:58 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

I am looking at those arms. I have a picture loaded up right now. 50% of the arms themselves stick up above the barrel of the Gauss, and the top of the Gauss' barrel aligns with the lowest edge of the MK2's cockpit, and all of it's ST weapons are set below the cockpit. This means that the MK2 will have to expose all of it's torso to fire any of it's non-missile weapons.

pssssst.....

so do the EBJ and Marauders.

*GASP*

And it's still minimal exposure.

Hell the KDK has to expose all it's torsos to fire, champ.... where do you think the Guns are?

Dude, you're arguing purely out of pride and principle at this point.... because all of your "points" have been refuted, while you try desperately to poke whole in ours... and ain't doing so well at it. Really think it's time to just park it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 April 2017 - 09:00 AM.


#16067 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:05 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 April 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

pssssst.....

so do the EBJ and Marauders.

*GASP*

And it's still minimal exposure.

Hell the KDK has to expose all it's torsos to fire, champ.... where do you think the Guns are?

Dude, you're arguing purely out of pride and principle at this point.... because all of your "points" have been refuted, while you try desperately to poke whole in ours... and ain't doing so well at it. Really think it's time to just park it.

Ah, but MADs have their high-mounted RT weapons, and all of the EBJ's ST weapons(with the exception of the third hardpoint on variants that even have a third hardpoint) are mounted above the cockpit. Also, the KDK's ST mounts are mounted fairly high as well, so you don't have to expose much to use them.

#16068 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:09 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

Ah, but MADs have their high-mounted RT weapons, and all of the EBJ's ST weapons(with the exception of the third hardpoint on variants that even have a third hardpoint) are mounted above the cockpit. Also, the KDK's ST mounts are mounted fairly high as well, so you don't have to expose much to use them.

The lower of the MADs RT weapons are as low or lower than the mkIIs arms, the EBJ uses it's arms for Gauss primarily, and the mkII will scarcely be exposing more than the KDK.... and again.. weapons ABOVE the cockpit are actually superfluous, as you can't see to use them, so they just are that much more high hitbox.

Keep flailing?

#16069 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:16 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 25 April 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

The lower of the MADs RT weapons are as low or lower than the mkIIs arms, the EBJ uses it's arms for Gauss primarily, and the mkII will scarcely be exposing more than the KDK.... and again.. weapons ABOVE the cockpit are actually superfluous, as you can't see to use them, so they just are that much more high hitbox.

Keep flailing?

Ah, but you seem to have forgotten the Hero's Ballistic LT, which means that the EBJ will be able to use 2 CGauss in the highest hardpoints. In fact, I believe that is part of the major controversy surrounding that mech. Also, the lower of the MAD's RT weapons are, at their lowest, in-line with the top edge of the MK2's arms. Also, the KDK has a high-set cockpit, while the Knockoff has a low-set cockpit. Very different in performance.

#16070 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 09:23 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Ah, but you seem to have forgotten the Hero's Ballistic LT, which means that the EBJ will be able to use 2 CGauss in the highest hardpoints. In fact, I believe that is part of the major controversy surrounding that mech. Also, the lower of the MAD's RT weapons are, at their lowest, in-line with the top edge of the MK2's arms. Also, the KDK has a high-set cockpit, while the Knockoff has a low-set cockpit. Very different in performance.


There actually isn't much controversy with the EBJ hero. Wanna know why? The guns are higher than you actually want them to be, the side torsos of an EBJ are obnoxiously huge when given weapons there, and the Gauss ST will explode if penetrated making your survivability that much lower. Further, it is actually less damage pinpoint than the current Gauss and 2x ERPPC side torso arrangement that many use.

So it is less survivable for less damage.

Posted Image

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 09:24 AM.


#16071 Odanan

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:16 AM

Guys, I had to redact some posts out there so please keep it civil.

And let's wait for the MK II actual performance on the battlefield before speaking so loud about it, right?
Besides, attacking/defending the MK II might bring fanatical devotion heated attention to this thread, which we don't need right now, OK?

#16072 Metus regem

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:27 AM

View PostOdanan, on 25 April 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Guys, I had to redact some posts out there so please keep it civil.

And let's wait for the MK II actual performance on the battlefield before speaking so loud about it, right?
Besides, attacking/defending the MK II might bring fanatical devotion heated attention to this thread, which we don't need right now, OK?



That's the thing, by major point with it, is on paper, it looks good, not perfect but good... how ever keeping in mind actual game play as it currently stands brings a lot of question marks about the unit until someone has hand a chance to map and post the hit boxes for it... sometimes the concept art doesn't match the final model... Enforcer's head anyone? I'm happy to keep it under the microscope, provided all parties can be civil about it.... How ever there is no saving of the Annihilator, not with out game breaking quirks anyways.... and no mech should need game breaking quirks to be viable.

#16073 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:28 AM

View PostOdanan, on 25 April 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Guys, I had to redact some posts out there so please keep it civil.

And let's wait for the MK II actual performance on the battlefield before speaking so loud about it, right?
Besides, attacking/defending the MK II might bring fanatical devotion heated attention to this thread, which we don't need right now, OK?

When the Clan Seafox-under-an-alias junkies stop proclaiming the Knockoff to be the second coming of the Supahunchdakka bear, I'll stop pointing out it's flaws to bring them back down to earth.

#16074 Metus regem

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:36 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

When the Clan Seafox-under-an-alias junkies stop proclaiming the Knockoff to be the second coming of the Supahunchdakka bear, I'll stop pointing out it's flaws to bring them back down to earth.



That might be easier to do, if you were to stop antagonizing them by mocking their clan name, at this point in time Diamond Shark is the clan's actually name in lore, as well as calling the Mk. II a "Knockoff"... the "Knockoff" of the Timber Wolf are the following:
Rakshasa
Posted Image



Mad Cat Mk. IV Savage Wolf
Posted Image


And in both cases, they are both inferior to the Timber Wolf.

Edited by Metus regem, 25 April 2017 - 10:37 AM.


#16075 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:51 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 25 April 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:



That might be easier to do, if you were to stop antagonizing them by mocking their clan name, at this point in time Diamond Shark is the clan's actually name in lore, as well as calling the Mk. II a "Knockoff"... the "Knockoff" of the Timber Wolf are the following:
Rakshasa
Posted Image



Mad Cat Mk. IV Savage Wolf
Posted Image


And in both cases, they are both inferior to the Timber Wolf.

Oh, I understand that they are knockoffs as well, but you can have a knockoff that isn't exactly the same. The reason I refer to the MK2 specifically as "The Knockoff", it because it was Seafox-under-an-alias' original knockoff, an attempt to monetise the legend of the Timby, which failed miserably. As to why I refer to the clan itself that way, that is what they are. Clan Seafox, under an alias. They adopted it as a way to troll Clan Snow Raven, but then changed it back to Clan Seafox later down the line, thus reducing the Clan Diamond Shark name to nothing more than a temporary alias. And before you bring it up, Clan Jade Wolf is no different. A temporary alias adopted by the Crusader Wolves to avoid absorption by Jade Falcon, only to be changed back to Clan Wolf days later.

Edited by Requiemking, 25 April 2017 - 10:52 AM.


#16076 Metus regem

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 10:58 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

Oh, I understand that they are knockoffs as well, but you can have a knockoff that isn't exactly the same. The reason I refer to the MK2 specifically as "The Knockoff", it because it was Seafox-under-an-alias' original knockoff, an attempt to monetise the legend of the Timby, which failed miserably. As to why I refer to the clan itself that way, that is what they are. Clan Seafox, under an alias. They adopted it as a way to troll Clan Snow Raven, but then changed it back to Clan Seafox later down the line, thus reducing the Clan Diamond Shark name to nothing more than a temporary alias. And before you bring it up, Clan Jade Wolf is no different. A temporary alias adopted by the Crusader Wolves to avoid absorption by Jade Falcon, only to be changed back to Clan Wolf days later.



Oh I know, and I understand where you are coming from, but there is a way to say the same things, without antagonizing the other side of a conversation and that leads to a more meaningful discussion is what I am trying to get across.

The lore for the Mk. II, when reading between the lines, was for all intents and purposes meant to be sold to the IS rather than the Clans, everything from the name they chose to use, using older model equipment combined with using an inefficient weight point for everything it does. All of that was done to get around the issue of selling leading edge Clan tech to the IS, something that was out right forbidden for Clan Diamond Shark to do for a rather long, long time...

#16077 Requiemking

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:02 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 25 April 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:



Oh I know, and I understand where you are coming from, but there is a way to say the same things, without antagonizing the other side of a conversation and that leads to a more meaningful discussion is what I am trying to get across.

The lore for the Mk. II, when reading between the lines, was for all intents and purposes meant to be sold to the IS rather than the Clans, everything from the name they chose to use, using older model equipment combined with using an inefficient weight point for everything it does. All of that was done to get around the issue of selling leading edge Clan tech to the IS, something that was out right forbidden for Clan Diamond Shark to do for a rather long, long time...

Ah, but the same lore points out that the Knockoff was primarily marketed towards Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon, neither of whom bought a single one, and the few they did get through Trials were probably shoved into the Solahma units.

#16078 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:22 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Ah, but the same lore points out that the Knockoff was primarily marketed towards Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon, neither of whom bought a single one, and the few they did get through Trials were probably shoved into the Solahma units.


The same lore points that the largest buyer of the MK II was a... get this... Clan. Nova Cat to be specific. It may have resided in IS space at the time, but CNC was still very much CNC. It was abjured from Clan space, but not even the staunchest of Crusader clans would deny the Clan was still a Clan.

Hell, some even respected the Cats for at least sticking to their principles and fighting with honor.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 11:23 AM.


#16079 Metus regem

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:32 AM

View PostRequiemking, on 25 April 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Ah, but the same lore points out that the Knockoff was primarily marketed towards Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon, neither of whom bought a single one, and the few they did get through Trials were probably shoved into the Solahma units.



All done for the pretext of being able to sell it to the IS.

"We tried to sell it to Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon, neither Clan wanted it, so we had to take it some where to be sold." That would've been their (Clan Diamond Shark) thinking and reason for building it the way they did.

If they had wanted it to be sold to Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon, it likely would've been named along the lines of "Alpha Wolf" or "Blood Wolf", it also would've been an 85t Omni-mech sporting all the latest Clan Tech. CDS doing it the way that they did, with the long term goal of it being sold to the IS or Clans that no longer had access to Clan Space resources, such as the already mentioned Nova Cat, Wolf in Exile and Ghost Bear in addition to the Great Houses.

#16080 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 11:43 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 25 April 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:



All done for the pretext of being able to sell it to the IS.

"We tried to sell it to Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon, neither Clan wanted it, so we had to take it some where to be sold." That would've been their (Clan Diamond Shark) thinking and reason for building it the way they did.

If they had wanted it to be sold to Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon, it likely would've been named along the lines of "Alpha Wolf" or "Blood Wolf", it also would've been an 85t Omni-mech sporting all the latest Clan Tech. CDS doing it the way that they did, with the long term goal of it being sold to the IS or Clans that no longer had access to Clan Space resources, such as the already mentioned Nova Cat, Wolf in Exile and Ghost Bear in addition to the Great Houses.


It might have been aimed at IS sales, but it was a godsend for the Nova Cats, as well as other Clan related entities such as the Dragoons, and was useful to the Dominion, as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of MKII sold were done so to Clan or pseudo-Clan entities. Just makes the "Hey, give the MKII to the IS pilots too" argument seem a smidge silly.

Especially since the models that were sold to the IS also had to have Clan weapon systems removed in order to not bring upon the wrath of the rest of the Clans. It stands to reason that they were chassis, only. Kinda like what the US does with our fighters when we sell them to Japan. We sell just an airframe, and they install whatever they want inside of it.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 April 2017 - 11:58 AM.






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