20517 replies to this topic

[Virlutris]

In order for its tonnage/enginesize/speed to play nice with the speed limit, Firemoth would need a 2% nega-quirk to get it under 171kph after speed tweak.

To manage the MASC, it needs to have the speed bonus removed from Clan MASC I (which only the Firemoth equips), or have the MASC removed entirely.

I imagine that some may object, saying: "But what's the point without MASC? It's supposed to run at ludicrous speeds!" I think that "But it's supposed to ..." thinking is what's keeping it out

To which I respond thusly: It's supposed to be the fastest mech in the game. With its stock-engine-to-tonnage ratio and it's resulting speed profile, it already is, even after the micronerf to keep it under the speed limit.

#freethefiremoth


edit: correcting the autocorrect

Edited by Virlutris, 05 September 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[Odanan]

Virlutris, on 05 September 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

In order for its tonnage/enginesize/speed to play nice with the speed limit, Firemoth would need a 2% nega-quirk to get it under 171kph after speed tweak.

To manage the MASC, it needs to have the speed bonus removed from Clan MASC I (which only the Firemoth equips), or have the MASC removed entirely.

I imagine that some may object, saying: "But what's the point without MASC? It's supposed to run at ludicrous speeds!" I think that "But it's supposed to ..." thinking is what's keeping it out

To which I respond thusly: It's supposed to be the fastest mech in the game. With its stock-engine-to-tonnage ratio and it's resulting speed profile, it already is, even after the micronerf to keep it under the speed limit.

#freethefiremoth

Let's hope they release it without any negative quirks, even if without MASC (no point adding the MASC without the speed bonus). 173.34 (with the 7.5% of the speed tweak) is not too much above 171, after all.

EDIT: and who knows if in the future they manage to make MWO support speeds over 200, they can add the MASC back.

Edited by Odanan, 05 September 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Virlutris]

Odanan, on 05 September 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

Let's hope they release it without any negative quirks, even if without MASC (no point adding the MASC without the speed bonus). 173.34 (with the 7.5% of the speed tweak) is not too much above 171, after all.

EDIT: and who knows if in the future they manage to make MWO support speeds over 200, they can add the MASC back.

I'd be cool with that.

My point is, that even under pretty conservative design constraints, it seems like it could be done. These are all options that are availablenin the dev toolbox.

If they don't have to do that, great! Even if they need to micro nerf the speed and lobotomize the MASC, it's still doable, and at least as viable as the locust.

#freethefiremoth

[FLG 01]

Let me put it this way: if I like a Mech, I usually like its design philosophy and I want to play it according to this philosophy.

Take the Fireball for example. The stock speed is already greater than that of the our maxed Locust, and with the usual 1.4x engine rating multiplier (for lights) it easily goes beyond 250 kph. Actually a variant canonically achieves 400 kph. Fourhundred. That's ludicrous speed.

But that's the point of the Mech, its raison d'être. I really would not want a Fireball that's as 'slow' as the Locust (or slower) - viable or not. If I'd want such a Mech, there were plenty of options I can chose from.
I don't care very much for Clan lights other than a few select ones, but for me the same holds true for the Fire Moth. The speed it had was just dazzling back then (fastest Mech up to that, as far as real life publication is concerned, was the Mercury iirc), and I feel we would not do the Mech justice by making it go slower. The case is not as extreme as the Fireball, though the underlying principle is the same. And I'd say similar things about Mechs with special mêlée weapons.

Now if they'd solve the speed issue, I was the first to ask for the classic Fire Moth - well, after I asked for the Fireball, that is - but as it stands we would not do it justice and other Mechs would be a better fit. For now.

Edited by FLG 01, 05 September 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Ovion, on 05 September 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

OK, so, updated charts, I even triple checked I'd got it all right this time

Viper acronym shorted to VP in these two.

Fantastic job, otherwise!


(Your text forced me to find something!)

Virlutris, on 05 September 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

In order for its tonnage/enginesize/speed to play nice with the speed limit, Firemoth would need a 2% nega-quirk to get it under 171kph after speed tweak.

To manage the MASC, it needs to have the speed bonus removed from Clan MASC I (which only the Firemoth equips), or have the MASC removed entirely.

I imagine that some may object, saying: "But what's the point without MASC? It's supposed to run at ludicrous speeds!" I think that "But it's supposed to ..." thinking is what's keeping it out

To which I respond thusly: It's supposed to be the fastest mech in the game. With its stock-engine-to-tonnage ratio and it's resulting speed profile, it already is, even after the micronerf to keep it under the speed limit.

#freethefiremoth


edit: correcting the autocorrect

Retaining the MASC would also make it have the single tightest turning radius at a run and the fastest acceleration rate of any mech in the game. Do want.

[Sereglach]

Seriously . . . the speed issue . . . again? It's NOT. AN. ISSUE. PGI has already stated that they've overcome the speed issues, they're just too chickensheet to put the super-fast speeds into the game. This is just like how they were too cowardly to do a full-blown city map until Russ announced they've committed to doing one alongside the Solaris announcement.

Unless someone can point me to something recent where Russ blatantly stated that speed is an issue (which didn't happen the last time I posted this, either), this was the last official stance put forth by PGI. Therefore, without further ado, to quote the timeline again . . . :

Sereglach, on 19 October 2016 - 06:54 PM, said:

Ok, it's been a LONG time, but I've done some digging to try to find where it was mentioned in a townhall about hit registration fixes. This was the best I could muster before I got a headache trying to dig through crap. I can't find the exact quote where Russ stated in a townhall that hit detection really starts to break after 200kph. However, here's what I did find:

- October 2013: MWO patched to new max speed of 170kph due to massive hit registration fixes.

- Sep 2014: MASC considered no-go because mechs will go too fast and break hit registration.

- Dec 2014 - Early 2015: Major hit registration fixes go out.

- April 16, 2015 town hall: MASC engineering is done and it could take mechs (namely mentions the Arctic Cheetah, but realizes he misspoke and that mech can't have MASC) beyond the current 170kph cap. They "MAY" have problems with Flea/Locust speed mechs, so they'll avoid them for now. In the same town hall it's stated that Neema would be working on even more HSR and hit registration fixes in the future.

- June/July 2015: June Townhall announces Neema making MAJOR HSR improvements that revolutionize hit registration and lift a lot of limits. Mech BONE rewinding in HSR creates a huge change that will make a huge difference.

I believe the quote comes in a town hall after this fact. However, next thing I could find without listening to hours and hours of town halls was that Jan/Feb 2016 MASC was getting buffed to further increase speed and agility and it wasn't a major concern on the hit registration side.

Seriously, this argument is getting as old as the C3 debate. SPEED IS NOT AN ISSUE!!! The only thing that is an issue is PGI's willingness to commit to such a mech. Even if Fireball (since the "hero" prospect goes 400+ kph) speeds could potentially break the game, that's still not the Firemoth, which with MWO MASC implementation would only slightly push the ~175kph soft cap they've implemented.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PGI finally worked up the guts to do a full fledged city map because the demand has been high enough for long enough. The only reason PGI hasn't worked up the guts to make mechs that push the speed limits is because the demand hasn't been high enough or for long enough . . . lights don't sell as well as other chassis and too many "nerf lights" cries still come out for the least popular weight class because they're (insert one BS reason or another that have permeated these forums).

[Metus regem]

FLG 01, on 05 September 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

Take the Fireball for example. The stock speed is already greater than that of the our maxed Locust, and with the usual 1.4x engine rating multiplier (for lights) it easily goes beyond 250 kph. Actually a variant canonically achieves 400 kph. Fourhundred. That's ludicrous speed.

A mech packing 320 XXL with MASC and a supercharger isn't ludicrous speed, it's down right plaid.

[Virlutris]

So, like I've said multiple times in the course of arguing for the Firemoth:

Even under the most conservative constraints, it can be done with design options already available to the devs.

If we don't need them, great. If we're being super-super careful, we can still do it.

#freethefiremoth

[Sereglach]

Virlutris, on 05 September 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

So, like I've said multiple times in the course of arguing for the Firemoth:

Even under the most conservative constraints, it can be done with design options already available to the devs.

If we don't need them, great. If we're being super-super careful, we can still do it.

#freethefiremoth

But that's the saddest part . . . there are zero constraints besides PGI working up the guts to go ahead and do it, like they've finally done with a city map. They've already admitted as much in the past. They're scared because an extremely small handful of people still cry about "lights OP" BS.

There are zero legitimate reasons mechs like the Flea and Firemoth aren't in the game.

[Virlutris]

Sereglach, on 05 September 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

But that's the saddest part . . . there are zero constraints besides PGI working up the guts to go ahead and do it, like they've finally done with a city map. They've already admitted as much in the past. They're scared because an extremely small handful of people still cry about "lights OP" BS.

There are zero legitimate reasons mechs like the Flea and Firemoth aren't in the game.

*** Please note: I'm not arguing against the Flea, this is more of an observation ***

Well, the reasoning provided for why the Flea's not in the game has less to do with the MASC and more to do with the fact that it would be a copy of the Locust in most ways, including loadouts and profiles, but likely with a lower engine cap. That's been the official line for a while now.

When people talk about the Firemoth, it's always the speed-phobia. Even if we got both the Firemoth and Piranha, they'd play and handle distinctly. Flea and Locust ... less so.

*** Again, note: this was not intended as an argument against the Flea. It was intended as an observation of various discussions I've witnessed ***

Edits: spelling, clarity -- oh, and #freethefiremoth

Edited by Virlutris, 05 September 2017 - 08:09 PM.

[Sereglach]

Virlutris, on 05 September 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

*snip*

That's the "official line" now, but it wasn't when the Flea was first cancelled; and it's still a contention for its release. I realize you're not arguing against the Flea, but it's worthy of note that the original reason that the Flea was cancelled was because of MASC. With that issue removed, there's no reason it shouldn't be implemented into the game.

The Flea and Firemoth are both mechs I'd like to see in MWO. I'm sure that's an ugly "maybe eventually, if ever" for both of them, but that seems to be the case for everything I'd like to see happen in MWO.

[Virlutris]

Sereglach, on 05 September 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

That's the "official line" now, but it wasn't when the Flea was first cancelled; and it's still a contention for its release. I realize you're not arguing against the Flea, but it's worthy of note that the original reason that the Flea was cancelled was because of MASC. With that issue removed, there's no reason it shouldn't be implemented into the game.

The Flea and Firemoth are both mechs I'd like to see in MWO. I'm sure that's an ugly "maybe eventually, if ever" for both of them, but that seems to be the case for everything I'd like to see happen in MWO.

Yeah, I wasn't around for the halcyon days of the Flea's announcement and cancellation. Valid point.

[Pariah Devalis]

I still think the Flea would function like an up-gunned Locust. It just trades 100% uptime on its crazy speed for a higher weapons payload, due to a lighter engine. How well it would pan out in MWO is another story.

[Odanan]

Sereglach, on 05 September 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

That's the "official line" now, but it wasn't when the Flea was first cancelled; and it's still a contention for its release. I realize you're not arguing against the Flea, but it's worthy of note that the original reason that the Flea was cancelled was because of MASC. With that issue removed, there's no reason it shouldn't be implemented into the game.

Flea was cancelled at that time because the game didn't have MASC yet. And it kept cancelled because the Locust came in it's place.

BTW, did you guys saw the RJBASS3 interview with Alex Iglesias?

His preferred own design is King Crab.

And he sort of hinted the next mech, I guess.

[Brain Cancer]

The one thing the Flea has always been able to deliver uniquely is the closest thing to the Clan MG boats nowadays- a very light, 6B+3E design. Of course, Fleas tend to be high on the hardpoint count, and would also include the first stock stealth armor build with the -20.

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 05 September 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

Flea was cancelled at that time because the game didn't have MASC yet. And it kept cancelled because the Locust came in it's place.

MASC wasn't in the game and they weren't adding it because they decided it would break the hit registration at the time, especially if they implemented it according to TT rules. They later revised the methods of implementing it into the game, but had still made enough hit registration improvements to make it happen. Afterwards, they made even more HSR and hit registration improvements so that speed is not an issue in the game anymore. Therefore, again, there's nothing holding mechs back such as the Flea or Fire Moth.

Brain Cancer, on 05 September 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

The one thing the Flea has always been able to deliver uniquely is the closest thing to the Clan MG boats nowadays- a very light, 6B+3E design. Of course, Fleas tend to be high on the hardpoint count, and would also include the first stock stealth armor build with the -20.

If we only go off of what's "unique" then we shouldn't have half the mechs that we actually have in MWO. However, those are some nice reasons to have the mech in the game; and I'm all for getting a Fire Ant as the hero . . . or even as a standard build depending on what PGI decides to do.

Edited by Sereglach, 05 September 2017 - 10:44 PM.

[Ovion]

Sereglach, on 05 September 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

But that's the saddest part . . . there are zero constraints besides PGI working up the guts to go ahead and do it, like they've finally done with a city map. They've already admitted as much in the past. They're scared because an extremely small handful of people still cry about "lights OP" BS.

There are zero legitimate reasons mechs like the Flea and Firemoth aren't in the game.

Well for the Firemoth, it's the speed.
We've only had confirmation that the game is fine to around 185kph without having severe HSR / LAG / problems.
The Firemoth would break that unfortunately.
You can talk about negative masc quirks... but then what's the point?
I'd rather wait till either the engine can handle it, or we switch from CryEngine and that can handle it.

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

I still think the Flea would function like an up-gunned Locust. It just trades 100% uptime on its crazy speed for a higher weapons payload, due to a lighter engine. How well it would pan out in MWO is another story.

The sad part is, even with MASC in MWO the Flea is slower than the Locust with the 190.
For this, it gains 0 to 0.5T of weight. 1T if you really drop the engine down.
This gives you a staggering 7-8T of total space (same as the Locust), in a package slower, usually with less hard points outside of a couple instances.

If the flea comes out, I will get it yes, but I don't see how it'll bring anything to the table the Locust doesn't already do while looking similar and performing better.

With another IS 20T mech, I'd rather get something different, like the Wasp/Stinger being jumpy humanoids, or the Thorn.

[Odanan]

I always made a lobby against the Flea but that's because I wanted some classics first. With the Locust already in game and after the release of the Wasp, I see no better 20 tonner than the Flea, and really hope it will make it. (and becomes some sort of "IS Piranha")

Edited by Odanan, 06 September 2017 - 05:08 AM.

[Sereglach]

Ovion, on 06 September 2017 - 03:06 AM, said:

Well for the Firemoth, it's the speed.
We've only had confirmation that the game is fine to around 185kph without having severe HSR / LAG / problems.
The Firemoth would break that unfortunately.
You can talk about negative masc quirks... but then what's the point?
I'd rather wait till either the engine can handle it, or we switch from CryEngine and that can handle it.

Where was it said 185 kph was a problem? You can look at the timeline I posted and the last thing I heard in a town hall was ~200kph they think they'll start to have issues. On the other hand, the official line was that the bone rewinding and HSR/Hit-Reg improvements Neema had made in the last pass essentially lifted any limits they currently had.

There's no reason against it unless PGI actually puts out official word on what the limits are and why they can't do it. They said a city map was impossible with the engine, too, and yet they've committed to making one because of all of the improvements and optimizations they've completed.

PGI is just being a coward about it; and have blatantly admitted to it. There's no other reason.

Odanan, on 06 September 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

I always made a lobby against the Flea but that's because I wanted some classics first. With the Locust already in game and after the release of the Wasp, I see no better 20 tonner than the Flea, and really hope it will make it. (and becomes some sort of "IS Piranha")

I'm not saying I wouldn't want the Wasp first, either. I'm just saying that there's ZERO reason for PGI to NOT implement the Flea or Firemoth anymore. PGI is just too cowardly to do it, based off Russ's own admission the last time it came up.

Edited by Sereglach, 06 September 2017 - 05:18 AM.

[Virlutris]

Odanan, on 05 September 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

And he sort of hinted the next mech, I guess.

Oh? Might you be willing to expand on that a bit?

I dropped out of the stream pretty early, before that came up.