20517 replies to this topic

[Alexander of Macedon]

Ovion, on 04 December 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

Or maybe because they like battleteh and are doing well otherwise they're happy to take a dip and offset their costs some to make something of their own for the franchise each year?

If they liked BTech they would have designed a 'mech which made some sort of sense in the lore. That and they wouldn't have spent close to a decade cynically pumping money out of this half-baked game.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Karl Streiger, on 04 December 2018 - 05:50 AM, said:

Bellerophon ... Hector ... Rifleman III ... Dragoon ... Rampage

Go on...

[FLG 01]

Ovion, on 04 December 2018 - 03:58 AM, said:

Or maybe because they like battleteh and are doing well otherwise they're happy to take a dip and offset their costs some to make something of their own for the franchise each year?

Possible. However, even disregarding the fact that CGL has not introduced them into the BT canon and carefully avoids calling them canonical, I think the Corsair's design is the result of some concessions which have little to do with the love of BT.

Let's be real, this one is a SW-era unit because they want to use it for MW:5. That's ok; I do understand the economic pressure. Then they use a lot of LosTech on the HeroMech because people like that (Assassin and Javelin heroes also come with LosTech although they are 3rd SW, and likely stock in canon). That's ok, too. And lastly PGI/Alex wanted a pirate Mech, which is ok again.

The problem is really bringing all those requirements together. You end up with a pirate Mech in the late SW-era, and of them is loaded with LosTech. (...while Victor Steiner-Davion would face the Clan Invasion in a lowly IntroTech Victor 10 years later; too bad the heir apparent of the greatest empire was not as well connected as a periphery bandit...).

That is not just the result of loving BattleTech, that's the result of trying to combine that love with your economic interests. And it could have been done better. Worse, it means straining existing canon at the very least, if not outright breaking it. You know your rationalization is weak when it basically comes down to 'oh, it's a mystery how he got all this LosTech'.

And if your economic interests have that much influence on your decisions, why not just bring a canonical Mech people like and buy?

[Sereglach]

FLG 01, on 04 December 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

Possible. However, even disregarding the fact that CGL has not introduced them into the BT canon and carefully avoids calling them canonical, I think the Corsair's design is the result of some concessions which have little to do with the love of BT.

CGL has been going out of their way to avoid calling MWO canon . . . that has nothing to do with MW:5. Lets face it, HBS Battletech has been canonized because it's been wildly successful; and it takes place in an area that was essentially untouched in the timeline. It also happens to have a non-canon Atlas build that's loaded with LosTech (I won't be surprised if it's a canonized "prototype" by the time the lore book is released). If MW5 is just as successful as HBS Battletech, then I fully expect it to end up canonized by CGL.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that MW5 is already going to be canon because of the fact that Randal Bills canonized the Corsair and the canon hero lore written -according to hints from Russ at MechCon- is directly based on events in MW5. If I were to wager a guess, you could end up working with or for the unit that hunts down this pirate hero, because he's a member of those pirates that took out your parents; and either your unit or your employer (NPC lancemate for the mission) is likely to have a Phoenix Hawk, with some LosTech, by the time you get there. It's . . . just a hunch . . . but the evidence/hinting was there in the MW5 part of the PGI presentation.

Edited by Sereglach, 04 December 2018 - 06:24 PM.

[TheArisen]

FLG 01, on 04 December 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

Possible. However, even disregarding the fact that CGL has not introduced them into the BT canon and carefully avoids calling them canonical, I think the Corsair's design is the result of some concessions which have little to do with the love of BT.

Let's be real, this one is a SW-era unit because they want to use it for MW:5. That's ok; I do understand the economic pressure. Then they use a lot of LosTech on the HeroMech because people like that (Assassin and Javelin heroes also come with LosTech although they are 3rd SW, and likely stock in canon). That's ok, too. And lastly PGI/Alex wanted a pirate Mech, which is ok again.

The problem is really bringing all those requirements together. You end up with a pirate Mech in the late SW-era, and of them is loaded with LosTech. (...while Victor Steiner-Davion would face the Clan Invasion in a lowly IntroTech Victor 10 years later; too bad the heir apparent of the greatest empire was not as well connected as a periphery bandit...).

That is not just the result of loving BattleTech, that's the result of trying to combine that love with your economic interests. And it could have been done better. Worse, it means straining existing canon at the very least, if not outright breaking it. You know your rationalization is weak when it basically comes down to 'oh, it's a mystery how he got all this LosTech'.

And if your economic interests have that much influence on your decisions, why not just bring a canonical Mech people like and buy?

Yeah they're plenty of SW era mechs to pick from still and some that would sell like hot cakes. I expected a PGI creation and honestly there are weight classes that could use an extra chassis but seriously they should of announced IS omnis.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sereglach, on 04 December 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

CGL has been going out of their way to avoid calling MWO canon . . . that has nothing to do with MW:5. Lets face it, HBS Battletech has been canonized because it's been wildly successful; and it takes place in an area that was essentially untouched in the timeline. It also happens to have a non-canon Atlas build that's loaded with LosTech (I won't be surprised if it's a canonized "prototype" by the time the lore book is released). If MW5 is just as successful as HBS Battletech, then I fully expect it to end up canonized by CGL.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that MW5 is already going to be canon because of the fact that Randal Bills canonized the Corsair and the canon hero lore written -according to hints from Russ at MechCon- is directly based on events in MW5. If I were to wager a guess, you could end up working with or for the unit that hunts down this pirate hero, because he's a member of those pirates that took out your parents; and either your unit or your employer (NPC lancemate for the mission) is likely to have a Phoenix Hawk, with some LosTech, by the time you get there. It's . . . just a hunch . . . but the evidence/hinting was there in the MW5 part of the PGI presentation.

and yet the stance of the head of CGL is that no PGI mech is canon and will never appear in a TT product, due to license issues.

[Sereglach]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 December 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

and yet the stance of the head of CGL is that no PGI mech is canon and will never appear in a TT product, due to license issues.

Yet HBS shares the exact same kind of license as PGI does, just to make a different kind of game; and their entire game has been made canon. CGL wasn't canonizing MWO because it goes outside the spectrum of anything that could be made canon . . . there's no story and the hero mechs are loosely pulled from Battletech canon, at best. They've already canonized the Corsair and we've been told that lore directly ties into MW5. MW5 is a different creature than MWO, and more like HBS Battletech; and I expect it to be fully canonized (at least the core story/premise) . . . they've already hinted as such.

Obviously, things have changed; and we're going to have to acknowledge it as canon, whether people like it or not. Personally, I hate the Corsair, think it's a fugly mech, and think the lore is terrible . . . but it is what it is.

Edited by Sereglach, 05 December 2018 - 07:56 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sereglach, on 05 December 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Yet HBS shares the exact same kind of license as PGI does, just to make a different kind of game; and their entire game has been made canon. CGL wasn't canonizing MWO because it goes outside the spectrum of anything that could be made canon . . . there's no story and the hero mechs are loosely pulled from Battletech canon, at best. They've already canonized the Corsair and we've been told that lore directly ties into MW5. MW5 is a different creature than MWO, and more like HBS Battletech; and I expect it to be fully canonized (at least the core story/premise) . . . they've already hinted as such.

Obviously, things have changed; and we're going to have to acknowledge it as canon, whether people like it or not. Personally, I hate the Corsair, think it's a fugly mech, and think the lore is terrible . . . but it is what it is.

And yet, again, I repeat, as of YESTERDAY. At best the Corsair (and others) are "soft" Canon, because again, everything PGI has created will not exist in TT. No, not even the Corsair. The difference between HBS and PGI is that HBS is simply ideas. Not physical designs that CGL would then have to license from Microsoft. So perhaps the ideas may someday crop up, but the designs as we see them? Not going o happen.

I sub contract for CGL and talk to their Line Developer (Brent Evans), Art Lead (Anthony Scroggins) usually on a weekly basis. Along with Ray Arrastia in the rather nebulous all encompassing role he plays. And have actually asked them specifically about these. Which also sadly means the Deputy Dawg (aka K9) sadly (for me) is in canon limbo to. So not talking out of my butt here or speculating.

But hey, keep on believing what you want.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 December 2018 - 07:27 AM.

[Sereglach]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 December 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

And yet, again, I repeat, as of YESTERDAY. At best the Corsair (and others) are "soft" Canon, because again, everything PGI has created will not exist in TT. No, not even the Corsair. The difference between HBS and PGI is that HBS is simply ideas. Not physical designs that CGL would then have to license from Microsoft. So perhaps the ideas may someday crop up, but the designs as we see them? Not going o happen.

I sub contract for CGL and talk to their Line Developer (Brent Evans), Art Lead (Anthony Scroggins) usually on a weekly basis. Along with Ray Arrastia in the rather nebulous all encompassing role he plays. And have actually asked them specifically about these. Which also sadly means the Deputy Dawg (aka K9) sadly (for me) is in canon limbo to. So not talking out of my butt here or speculating.

But hey, keep on believing what you want.

"Soft" canon is still canon; and that's the point I'm making. I'm not talking about merchandising . . . I'm talking about acknowledged lore as canon. Lore is completely separate from anything that's being merchandised . . . PGI and Randall Bills aren't selling the lore post up on PGI's forum for the Corsair, but it's acknowledged canon for the Battletech universe (which Randall Bills HIMSELF just said it is on stage at Mech Con). All I'm saying is that the lore is acknowledged canon. I'm not saying that CGL is going to merchandise that canon, but that it will be recognized canon.

If someone makes a record sheet for a Corsair, now, and brings it to a game table, then it's now acknowledged as a canon mech . . . and not just something someone's making up as a "homebrew". Therefore, whether people like it or not, it's a canon mech design in the Battletech lore.

The Deputy Dawg mech is in limbo because it's a MWO exclusive hero that's not coming from anything that's been officially created as Battletech canon and given the blessing of Randall Bills. The Corsair, on the other hand, has.

It's not just believing what I want, it's acknowledging the reality. You're talking merchandising, and I'm just talking acknowledged lore.

EDIT: Fun fact, Neonknight, from CGL demo teams, already posted that the Corsair has an official model and record sheets that are legal at official Battletech events, and that it's an official Battletech mech:
https://bg.battletec...3957#msg1463957

Edited by Sereglach, 06 December 2018 - 11:57 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

[Odanan]

Charger stock is the new Urbie stock.

[FupDup]

Odanan, on 06 December 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

Charger stock is the new Urbie stock.

12v12 stock Urbies vs. Chargers. Final destination.

[TheArisen]

Anyone want the original pirate mech?
https://mwomercs.com...support-thread/

[Shadowomega1]

TheArisen, on 06 December 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

Anyone want the original pirate mech?
https://mwomercs.com...support-thread/

Well I think the next mech to be announced outside of the PGI original is an IS light mech, at least on the IS mech list side; so following up the Corsair with the Brigan would be nice.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 December 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

still not feeling that Charger head, but the HataTHUGo is growing on me slightly.

[General Solo]

Welcome back Bishop
I missed you on the forums
or just didnt see u long time

[FLG 01]

Sereglach, on 06 December 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

It's not just believing what I want, it's acknowledging the reality. You're talking merchandising, and I'm just talking acknowledged lore.

EDIT: Fun fact, Neonknight, from CGL demo teams, already posted that the Corsair has an official model and record sheets that are legal at official Battletech events, and that it's an official Battletech mech:
https://bg.battletec...3957#msg1463957

Actually... CGL gave a 100% clear statement: it is not canon at all.

"Those sheets are not official and those designs are not canon for the tabletop.
CGL cannot use the PGI-created designs, no matter what “part” CGL or its employees play in the creation of the designs. When asked for confirmation, Randall and Brent stated that those were provided by a demo agent and they allowed it this time only as part of the hype at MechCon."
Adrian Gideon, Assistant Line Developer
https://bg.battletec...4943#msg1464943

So, there we have it. They also gave a clear answer to another interesting question, the lore written by Randall Bills. It's only canon if it concerns already canonical Mechs used by CGL.

[Sereglach]

FLG 01, on 08 December 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

Actually... CGL gave a 100% clear statement: it is not canon at all.

"Those sheets are not official and those designs are not canon for the tabletop.
CGL cannot use the PGI-created designs, no matter what “part” CGL or its employees play in the creation of the designs. When asked for confirmation, Randall and Brent stated that those were provided by a demo agent and they allowed it this time only as part of the hype at MechCon."
Adrian Gideon, Assistant Line Developer
https://bg.battletec...4943#msg1464943

So, there we have it. They also gave a clear answer to another interesting question, the lore written by Randall Bills. It's only canon if it concerns already canonical Mechs used by CGL.

So they're creating "canon" lore, officially calling it canon on stage at MechCon, using the sheets at MechCon, telling their demo agents it's canon and can be used . . . and then they're making a statement to say it's not canon?

Wow . . . just . . . wow . . . what a way to lie to all the people who attended, watched the streams, or will watch the VODs of MechCon; and people wonder why the computer games can do well, but the TT game is dying a slow and painful death. That's just a slap in the face to anyone who actually likes the mech or wants to see more unified lore between tabletop and video games.

That begs the question of what will be in the Aurigan Reach lore book. If it matches up with the game -and thereby lore/characters/assets made by HBS- then they're just lying out their rear-ends about not being able to canonize something that PGI makes (the both operate under the same kind of legal restrictions between physical and digital ownership of Battletech between Topps and Microsoft). Otherwise, people are about to get a lore book that has nothing original from HBS Battletech; and that'll be a slap in the face to anyone that buys it hoping for the game connection.

[CycKath]

It will be the same as the Cresent Hawks games vs Spotlight Cresent Hawks, it won't be a perfect match for what happened in the game but it will be close, and its part of the reason why the book focuses on what happens after the game too.

It's also why only the TRO art is canon for any of the MW4 'Mechs too...

Edited by CycKath, 08 December 2018 - 08:15 PM.

[Sereglach]

CycKath, on 08 December 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

It will be the same as the Cresent Hawks games vs Spotlight Cresent Hawks, it won't be a perfect match for what happened in the game but it will be close, and its part of the reason why the book focuses on what happens after the game too.

What you're talking about, though, was when everything was still owned under one roof. It's not like that anymore.

To add clarity to why this is unsettling for the IP and off-putting for Battletech fans:

In a best case scenario, they're attempting to do some legalese double-speak and say it's not canon (with a big nudge-nudge-wink-wink), while at the same time telling the fanbase that it is canon and to treat it as such. In a worst case scenario this is outright lying to the fans, on stage, at the "big" convention for the Battletech IP; and then releasing a "correction" at a later date, in a subdued fashion, and hoping that the fan base blindly buys the "related" products. Sadly, regardless of the case, in the end it will mean that CGL products will contain nothing directly connected to the video games; and that'll leave the fanbase angry and unhappy about the CGL products.

In addition, before anyone says, "Well, the HBS stuff is just ideas." Remember that they went to a part of the Inner Sphere with no lore, no governments, no factions, and no specific characters written for it. That means that everything created was created BY HBS and FOR HBS . . . all for the video game side of the IP. According to CGL's "corrective" statement, that means that they can't actually touch it. That would mean that the Aurigan Reach "lore book" isn't going to be connected to the game in any way, for people who were hoping for that; and even the naming might be only loosely related. Therefore, IF CGL secured some kind of license to make the connection a reality, then that'd mean they'd already have a means of establishing license connections to unify lore, mechs, etc. between Microsoft and Topps (the two respective owners of the electronic and physical sides of the game, who the sub-licensees would need to go through) and they're just employing selective unification for the sake of alienating a section of Battletech fans. That doesn't make the situation or image of CGL any better in that case, either.