20517 replies to this topic

[Jack Gallows]

PGI also has repeatedly said they want to move to two 'mechs a month. Not sure they can pull it off, but I'd say that besides a Clan Invasion Specialty Package that you'll see them continue to develop an Inner Sphere mech right along with a Clan release. That way each group gets a new mech every month.

[Strum Wealh]

Jack Gallows, on 08 September 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

PGI also has repeatedly said they want to move to two 'mechs a month. Not sure they can pull it off, but I'd say that besides a Clan Invasion Specialty Package that you'll see them continue to develop an Inner Sphere mech right along with a Clan release. That way each group gets a new mech every month.

Which in turn raises the question of what happens when they run out of Clan 'Mechs - there are probably less than 100 Clan chassis in all of BT (see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here), and not all of those 1.) are ever seen in the IS, 2.) are extant at the time of the Clan Invasion, and/or 3.) have enough variants/configurations to work in MWO's XP system.

From the lists on Sarna, it would seem that the Clans were more focused on variation within a chassis (particularly with regard to the OmniMechs and their myriad configurations), and had relatively little focus on variety across chassis.
Unless the Clans' XP earning system is substantially different from that of the IS and/or PGI is more willing to ignore when in the timeline certain Clan chassis or variants/configurations came into being (or went extinct), there would be a lot of Clan 'Mechs that simply wouldn't fit into MWO's mechanics...

[Jack Gallows]

I think it's obvious they're going to add a new way of "mastering" OmniMechs since down the road the Inner Sphere will obtain them as well (and you need it for those IS players who obtain Clan tech.) I'd say that if you were able to mod a 'mech like an Omni-mech allowed it'd make them more cost effective as you'd only need a certain amount of designs which would cut down on how many unique designs that would need to be created/tooled on an assembly line.

I think they'll be a bit generous with "extinct" 'mechs for both the IS and Clans down the road once they start scraping the bottom of barrel. Also, I believe that'll help drive the push to move the timeline forward when they've come to a point they've run out of available chassis to release.

I think it's safe to assume we all know the first batches of Clan machinery, it only make sense to focus on the initial invading OmniMechs especially as a Clan Founder style pack. My bets are Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Nova, and the Kit Fox for the initial four announcement Clan 'mechs. I do however believe that they'll start adding more to the roster before Clans are launched in earnest, but those four will generate a ton of monetary gain for PGI and help get a lot of the Clanner(d)s focused in.

Hell, the Timber Wolf announcement alone is going to cause the forums to melt down for days on end.

To touch on the idea that we won't see a new announcement until next April, I think that how Hero 'mechs work must be considered. PGI makes good money off the Hero 'mechs, they specifically designed the delayed deployment of the standard variants in order to boost sales (which I find abhorrent, personally,) due to preying on individuals who can't wait. After the Phoenix Pack closes (which I expect won't be till after Christmas or near it,) you'll have a gap in Hero 'mechs. The Phoenix pack heroes don't work like normal so that might be a barrier for purchase as some may want JUST the Hero mech versions instead of the whole 80 bucks.

They've been releasing a Hero 'mech every month with every 'mech announcement and I don't think they're going to stop now. There would be too much of a dry spell between now and April so I expect to see some new 'mech announcements as early as November/December.

[FireSlade]

I would throw $120 down now for those 4 mechs if PGI announced the Clanner's Package even if it took them another year to deliver. All I would want in the mean time would be the ability to select my Clan faction. Not too much to ask since you Innersphere guys got to pick your faction for well over a year now.

[Jack Gallows]

FireSlade, on 08 September 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I would throw $120 down now for those 4 mechs if PGI announced the Clanner's Package even if it took them another year to deliver. All I would want in the mean time would be the ability to select my Clan faction. Not too much to ask since you Innersphere guys got to pick your faction for well over a year now.

Being able to select a Faction does absolutely diddly squat, unfortunately. With no CW in sight it's likely to stay that way for a while.

The sad part is that they'll probably cram more stuff in the Clan Founders pack, the Project Phoenix one is a WAY better value then the Founder's pack was and they've pretty much abandoned most of the Founders anyway.

[FireSlade]

Jack Gallows, on 08 September 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Being able to select a Faction does absolutely diddly squat, unfortunately. With no CW in sight it's likely to stay that way for a while.

The sad part is that they'll probably cram more stuff in the Clan Founders pack, the Project Phoenix one is a WAY better value then the Founder's pack was and they've pretty much abandoned most of the Founders anyway.

True, but it is nice to run the colors of your faction instead of having to pick lonewolf. Otherwise why did you pick the Davion faction before they delivered CW. I have noticed that the Project Phoenix got more for the buck than the founders package did but I do not believe that they are ignoring the founders any more than they did back when MWO started. And you may be right about the Clan founders getting more for less but to be honest they would not need it to generate the funds that they would want from it. People will buy the package just because they would get to play with Clan tech and Omni mechs even if they had no intention of joining clan factions.

[Jack Gallows]

FireSlade, on 08 September 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

True, but it is nice to run the colors of your faction instead of having to pick lonewolf. Otherwise why did you pick the Davion faction before they delivered CW. I have noticed that the Project Phoenix got more for the buck than the founders package did but I do not believe that they are ignoring the founders any more than they did back when MWO started. And you may be right about the Clan founders getting more for less but to be honest they would not need it to generate the funds that they would want from it. People will buy the package just because they would get to play with Clan tech and Omni mechs even if they had no intention of joining clan factions.

Little secret, not playing for Davion when CW launches.

And it's true that a lot of people are just going to buy the Clan packs for Clan tech, hell I'd be inclined to do it myself if I ever wanted to give PGI money again. I will concede that it will be nice for those who have a preferred faction to actually pick what they want, but I originally saw it as a way of preserving the idea that we were going on the 1 to 1 time scale PGI originally tried doing.

It'll be interesting to say the least...I foresee the game becoming faster as everyone abandons their IS weaponry for Clan tech. They said they don't want IS 'mechs to become obsolete, but I don't see the mech itself going away...just it's guts.

[Odanan]

If players can mount Clan tech in IS mechs, this game is utterly doomed. Everyone with 2 brain cells can figure that.

The only way to balance the Clans is NOT to balance. Come on, you can't balance a Clan UAC/20 or a Clan SSRM6 or a Clan LRM. BUT you can give so many drawbacks* for playing as Clan that in the end IS vs Clan is a fair fight.

*matchmaking is the secret. Less and lighter Clan mechs vs more and heavier IS mechs = that's the only way to do it.

[Jack Gallows]

I'll have to find it but I believe on the last NGNG they basically said they aren't going the OP route with the Clans, so that means really ridiculous balancing. They also said IS 'mechs can mount Clan technology, and then said they wanted to look at single heat sinks still to make sure they weren't left behind.

You can't mix all that in a successful model of play, it's going to be a disaster because you're basically just going to have every mech running Clan technology which will be ever so slightly better then IS but not much. Ghost Heat already completely screws soooo many Clan 'mechs as it is (Nova, Warhawk?) and with Clan chassis being able to mount higher engine ranges (which they'll probably nerf bat the hell out of the max engine size for most Clan machines since their net code can't handle it,) it's going to be a Three Ring Circus when we do get Clan stuff. Also, I know that the base omni rules don't allow changing stuff like engines/etc but they might abandon some of those restrictions.

Everything Clan hits harder, which will see a big nerf too. It'll either be you go all in with Clan tech or your gimping a team worse then sitting in a trial 'mech (no offense to those of you who can only use them at the beginning.)

Edit* Also, last NGNG Bryan let the Mad Cat out of the bag and said that the Timber Wolf is done with concept and modeling, so we can expect that in the first wave.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 09 September 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Jack Gallows, on 09 September 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

I'll have to find it but I believe on the last NGNG they basically said they aren't going the OP route with the Clans, so that means really ridiculous balancing. They also said IS 'mechs can mount Clan technology, and then said they wanted to look at single heat sinks still to make sure they weren't left behind.

Bryan Ekman made that set of statements regarding Clan technology and its implementation in MWO in the first of the three parts of the interview by NGNG, from (approximately) the 36:30 mark to (approximately) the 38:20 mark.

Quote

I'm going to say this right now, so that everybody can manage their expectations: We're not going to make the same mistake that was made for the last 30 years when it comes to introducing Clan technology into a BattleTech or MechWarrior project. IT WAS A MISTAKE - how powerful they were when they were first introduced - and it's something that I remember talking with [Jordan Weisman] about and him saying, "Wow... if I could take it back, I probably would; I'd probably change how they work, because it immediately invalidated an entire line of products and 'Mechs and content".

So, our approach to introducing Clan tech - which includes Double Heat Sinks and lasers and how equipment fits onto 'Mechs and OmniMechs - is we're going to look at it from the context of our game and inspired by what the intent was for Clan tech.

"Here is a superior force, coming back, that's going to lay waste to the Inner Sphere." But, we want to make sure those Inner Sphere players are able to compete, still. But the way the story was written, "it was through the valor of the Inner Sphere and the unification of the Inner Sphere that they were able to defeat the Clans, and overcome that superior tech."

We can't guarantee that our playerbase is going to be able to do that. In fact, it'll probably be the opposite - everybody is going to flock to the best, most efficient piece of content, and therefore invalidate all the other content - and we don't want that to happen. We want to be able to recreate what was described in that lore, but it's going to require us to change the mechanics and the exact BT... let's say, the numbers, to make sure that the players can actually try to achieve what happened in that canon.

- Bryan Ekman on Clan tech in MWO, from NGNG #88 (recorded Sept. 04, 2013)

As it happens, Ekman's statements also echo those made by Randall Bills in the second Dev interview.

Quote

MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?

RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.

Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

If what Ekman is talking about is a more-but-not-completely "Billsian" approach for the MWO implementation of the Clans... that could prove to be interesting.

Thoughts?

[Anjian]

Jack Gallows, on 08 September 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Hate to shoot your ideas full of holes, Anjian, but all Project Phoenix items up to and including the Overlord pack deploy on October 15th. That includes all of the hero mech versions in one month. Saber Reinforcements all get added in December on the 17th. So no, it isn't taking t
ill next march to include these machines and the next speculated mech has to be very soon.

Sorry but you are dead wrong. The early release for the packages are for those who bought it. For those who didn't you have to wait for the regular release of these mechs:

October - Locust
November - Shadowhawk
December - Thunderbolt
January - Battlemaster
February - Griffin
March - Wolverine

The schedule has also been announced by PGI. This isn't my idea or speculation, its already a fact.

Jack Gallows, on 08 September 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

PGI also has repeatedly said they want to move to two 'mechs a month. Not sure they can pull it off, but I'd say that besides a Clan Invasion Specialty Package that you'll see them continue to develop an Inner Sphere mech right along with a Clan release. That way each group gets a new mech every month.

They also said a lot of things, and broke them. Do you see two mechs a month now?

[Jack Gallows]

With their inability to balance the weapons we have right now I'm seriously cringing at the possible "changes" they have to Clan tech. They even stated they were going to probably change up the OmniMech restrictions, stuff like Engine/armor/heat sinks etc. Having Clans having weaponry that's better at close range isn't horrible but it'll reduce the tactical application Clan pilots get unless they find a way to make IS equipment still useful for Clanners depending on the type of play style. Don't know, not sure they're going to be able to pull it off. One big hurdle I see for them is engine restrictions given that Clan machines tended to be MUCH faster then IS equivalents.

I think Bills had a good idea, Heavy Lasers and things like the ATM would have made Clan tech interesting without outright destroying IS tech. Unfortunately it got bungled and IS tech became obsolete mostly.




Btw, moar 'mechs! WTB

[FireSlade]

I am in agreement that they are not going to be able to pull the clans off correctly. All we have right now is Innersphere tech and because of PGI's balancing half the weapons that we have becomes useless and it creates the current go to or fail meta. Clan UACs are going to be the end of balance and the Devs. do not seem to care about the time when they add them. Imagine ghost heat and any other arbitrary balance ideas that they have when Clan tech becomes involve. I hear them saying that they have to consider costs towards the servers and clients but yet they want to add mile long math strings that have to be calculated for every action that everyone does every given moment in the game.


P.S. Yes we need the Cyclops A.S.A.P.

[Spheroid]

Listen, Clan tech is not going to be overpowered. The reason ghost heat exists is to heavily, heavily discourage stacking of effective weapons without developing different gameplay mechanics from already existing weapon types. The developers are on record as saying as much.

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

Odanan, on 09 September 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

If players can mount Clan tech in IS mechs, this game is utterly doomed. Everyone with 2 brain cells can figure that.

The only way to balance the Clans is NOT to balance. Come on, you can't balance a Clan UAC/20 or a Clan SSRM6 or a Clan LRM. BUT you can give so many drawbacks* for playing as Clan that in the end IS vs Clan is a fair fight.

*matchmaking is the secret. Less and lighter Clan mechs vs more and heavier IS mechs = that's the only way to do it.

I agree! No clan stuff in IS buckets!

[Jack Gallows]

Spheroid, on 09 September 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Listen, Clan tech is not going to be overpowered. The reason ghost heat exists is to heavily, heavily discourage stacking of effective weapons without developing different gameplay mechanics from already existing weapon types. The developers are on record as saying as much.

So, what happens to mechs like the Nova and Warhawk that by their very base design, boat?

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

Warhawk and Nova deserve it to be a boat!

Edited by The Birdeater, 09 September 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Spheroid]

Jack Gallows, on 09 September 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

So, what happens to mechs like the Nova and Warhawk that by their very base design, boat?

Those are hot mechs in TT as well. Weapons will need to be removed and replaced with heatsinks. That is not a problem as I don't predict Clan mechs will be trial mechs or if the trial mech system will even exist in the future. The Warhawk is no different than the Awesome in that the stock is not very viable in the MWO heat system.

[Bishop Steiner]

Spheroid, on 09 September 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Listen, Clan tech is not going to be overpowered. The reason ghost heat exists is to heavily, heavily discourage stacking of effective weapons without developing different gameplay mechanics from already existing weapon types. The developers are on record as saying as much.

a ULtra AC20 following the current UAC5 mechanism, is not going to be ovepowered HOW? Sure it might jam after one shot. Or it might pound out 7 shots before it jams. BEcause of the heat, it'll be shutdown, but you wont care because you will be dead. They would have to invent a host of new features, like they are doing now with ghost heat, Gauss charge, etc to make it work. (Like giving it severe recoil that gets worse with each shot, forcing ones fire to "walk".

Or they could have simply designed UACs and other weapons correctly in the first place, as an ac that could fire a double tap, at the risk of jamming, but follows the basic cooldown and such of it's parent type in all other respects.

Streak SRM6s? Yeah, unless clan versions magically do less damage, we are talking 2.5 per missile that never misses. And Mechs like the Timberwolf C (i think) mount 4 racks of them.

So the basic Clan Tech IS broken. Bills and Ekman both have flat out said so. The only thing giving me hope is Bryan flatout saying they are looking at essentially re-writing clan tech to give it a more down and dirty, duellist feel, than th elegant SLDF, Unit fire feel of the Star League Lostech

[CDLord HHGD]

The Birdeater, on 09 September 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

I agree! No clan stuff in IS buckets!

Can I still have a HBK-IIC though? Technically it's just a variant. I don't even want to have IS stuff in the mechlab for this.....