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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

BattleMech Balance

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#3901 Adridos

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 June 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

i seriously can' put giving the Crappies a full stable of mechs as a good reason to put a mediocre mech (shocker, it IS a Crappie design) over Mechs that could be useful, like the Dervish and Vulcan.

Vulcan has no use whatsoever when pitted against the Cicada. The tonnage restricts the ballistics only to a bare minimum just like in the Cicada and falls behind in speed while being more or less equal in arament.

As far as Dervish goes, it is just an upscaled Trebuchet... plus you'd have to add a primitive to the game in order for it to have enough variants.

#3902 Spheroid

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:14 PM

View PostAdridos, on 02 June 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:


As far as Dervish goes, it is just an upscaled Trebuchet... plus you'd have to add a primitive to the game in order for it to have enough variants.

DV-6Md - This Star League era variant uses an XL Engine, twelve single heat sinks, and upgrades the LRM-10s to LRM-15s. Three tons of ammunition are in a CASE protected torso bin

Edited by Spheroid, 02 June 2013 - 11:15 PM.


#3903 Khanahar

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:48 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

and so goes the twitch gamer power creep madness, where the new meta will be Clan tech or bust.

Be the absolute WORST idea they could have. That would kill the game faster than almost any other mistake they have made .


Seconding Odanan's seconding of this.

However, the next question is how to keep the near-entirety of the playerbase from migrating to Clan factions. I admit, I kinda like the notion of the IS being populated by a handful of total RP diehards and clueless new players against the hordes of Clan powergamers. It'd feel like the humans in Terminator, with the older ones telling the younger ones the stories of brighter days...

But I think that's probably a bad direction for the game to take. So I think they give you a split account and only give you Clan games as rewards for victories. Reaction breakdown:
IS Old Guard: Get to play in populated faction
Clan die-hards: Have to win all the time, or else spend time as a bondsman
General Player Base: Mostly play IS, with Clan as an occasional treat that gives additional incentive for playing/winning
Powergamers: Unable to break system, have to play according to general player base rules.

#3904 Adridos

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:28 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 02 June 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

DV-6Md - This Star League era variant uses an XL Engine, twelve single heat sinks, and upgrades the LRM-10s to LRM-15s. Three tons of ammunition are in a CASE protected torso bin

Curse the day someone found that single line of text in that book... ;)

Altough it's safe to say that variant is extinct by 3050, so can I have my Koschei and mainly Gladiator (as a replacement 55 tonner) pretty please?

Edited by Adridos, 03 June 2013 - 06:29 AM.


#3905 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:01 AM

No.

And the Vulcan has a great profile making it a tough target at range, and jjs. Also the upgrade drops the ac, although slapping a uac5 into the ballistic would be fine. And side torso should be tiny so XL is not an issue

#3906 Adridos

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 03 June 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

No.


Prove it. ;)

Gladiator has much more interesting and balanced loadouts and as already mentioned, both it and Dervish require the use of extinct variants.

Edited by Adridos, 03 June 2013 - 08:32 AM.


#3907 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

No.

And the Vulcan has a great profile making it a tough target at range, and jjs. Also the upgrade drops the ac, although slapping a uac5 into the ballistic would be fine. And side torso should be tiny so XL is not an issue

#3908 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

what's to prove?

Gladiator is far rarer in ANY form, not just a singular one, and the Dervish could be absolutely devastating if they ever fix arms. Jump capable hbk-4sp

#3909 Adridos

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 03 June 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

what's to prove?

Gladiator is far rarer in ANY form, not just a singular one, and the Dervish could be absolutely devastating if they ever fix arms. Jump capable hbk-4sp


I just dislike teh idea of adding an outright better mech into the roster. Lights had Jenner, then 3L, heavies suffered with Catapult's clear superiority for ages and the only class that never had a no-go filled roster was the medium one, where each one perfeormed more or less the same and each one did it's job.

Adding Dervish kills off 4SPs/4Js and missile Trebuchets (all besides the 7K). Plus it heavily invalidates any thought of the other mediums (with the exception of the Cicada) being competitive since it carries more armor, goes worlds faster, has jumpjets and appropriate arament for the weight class.

#3910 Spheroid

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:27 AM

View PostAdridos, on 03 June 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:


I just dislike teh idea of adding an outright better mech into the roster. Lights had Jenner, then 3L, heavies suffered with Catapult's clear superiority for ages and the only class that never had a no-go filled roster was the medium one, where each one perfeormed more or less the same and each one did it's job.

Adding Dervish kills off 4SPs/4Js and missile Trebuchets (all besides the 7K). Plus it heavily invalidates any thought of the other mediums (with the exception of the Cicada) being competitive since it carries more armor, goes worlds faster, has jumpjets and appropriate arament for the weight class.

It would not kill off the 4SP. The Dervish will be limited by the tube count on the hands and the smaller number of energy hardpoints. They could also gimp the torso twist range against the lighter mediums. I think Dervishes also have missile bay doors which for good or ill would further differ them from Trebs.

Edited by Spheroid, 03 June 2013 - 11:31 AM.


#3911 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostAdridos, on 03 June 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:


I just dislike teh idea of adding an outright better mech into the roster. Lights had Jenner, then 3L, heavies suffered with Catapult's clear superiority for ages and the only class that never had a no-go filled roster was the medium one, where each one perfeormed more or less the same and each one did it's job.

Adding Dervish kills off 4SPs/4Js and missile Trebuchets (all besides the 7K). Plus it heavily invalidates any thought of the other mediums (with the exception of the Cicada) being competitive since it carries more armor, goes worlds faster, has jumpjets and appropriate arament for the weight class.

Some mechs are better. Thankfully Hardpoints keep it somewhat in check. And I think it's kind of ironic, that the unloved symbol of Medium Mech mediocrity becomes the feared harbinger of Medium Mech Armageddon, for being TOO GOOD. Lol.

That said, the HBK can be differentiated via quirks and their physical handling characteristics, and eventually, they will have to fill the spot, might as well do it with a decent unit. Not my fault people love the SP. I happen to love the Dervish because it IS the better version of the SP.

#3912 Adridos

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:56 AM

Well, we now know the next IS heavy mech... Quickdraw.

What were the other possible options?

#3913 Wieland

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PostAdridos, on 04 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Well, we now know the next IS heavy mech... Quickdraw.

What were the other possible options?

Actually the next mech was supposed to be the Orion.

#3914 Strum Wealh

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

View PostAdridos, on 04 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Well, we now know the next IS heavy mech... Quickdraw.

What were the other possible options?

Listed here. ;)

View PostStrum Wealh, on 21 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

As for some potential Heavies...
  • Black Knight (75 tons): BK-6-KNT, BK-7-KNT, and BK-7-KNT-L
  • Champion (60 tons): CHP-1N, CHP-1N2, and CHP-2N
  • Grasshopper (70 tons): GHR-4R, GHR-5H, GHR-5N, and GHR-5J
  • Guillotine (70 tons): GLT-3N, GLT-4L, GLT-4P, and GLT-5M
  • Lancelot (60 tons): LNC25-01, LNC25-05, LNC25-02, LNC25-03
  • Quickdraw (60 tons): QKD-4G, QKD-4H, QKD-5A, and QKD-5K
Everything else is Unseen, Clan, a quad, doesn't have enough timeline-fitting variants, or has variants that have not-yet-recovered-or-implemented tech (e.g. NullSig, CLPS, one-shot missile weapons, etc).


The issue with the Black Knight is that all of the variants have the same minimum hardpoint requirements and have enough weapons (8E, for each) that options with regard to adding additional hardpoints become rather limited.
This issue was previously discussed explained here and here.

Likewise, all of the Champion variants also have the same minimum hardpoint requirements (4E, 1B, 1M).
While the Champion is pushing the implied limit for the Heavy category (most of which have only 6-8 hardpoints), the number is low enough - and the Champion has each hardpoint type represented - that it is more flexible in this regard than, say, the Black Knight.

The Grasshopper variants have varying minimum hardpoint requirements (6E for the GHR-5N, 5E + 1M for the GHR-5J and GHR-5H), while still (like, say, the Champion) having few enough hardpoints to be somewhat flexible with regard to hardpoint inflation.

The Guillotine, like the Black Knight, has the issue of the variants being homogeneous - all of them require a minimum of 5E + 1M in the same location arrangement. However, as with the similarly-armed and same-mass Grasshopper, there are few enough minimum hardpoints to allow for some flexibility with regard to extras.

The Lancelot, in contrast to the other Heavy 'Mechs listed, possesses more variety across its variants - two of them (LNC25-01 and LNC25-02) are energy boats with a minimum of 4E hardpoints, one of them (LNC25-03) has a minimum hardpoint requirement of 2E + 2B, and the last one (LNC25-05) has a minimum hardpoint requirement of 3E + 4B.
The Lancelot is also notable for being particularly fast, coming stock with a 360-rated Engine (LNC25-01 and LNC25-05) or a 300-rated Engine (LNC25-03), though one variant (LNC25-02) moves only at average Heavy 'Mech speeds.

The Quickdraw suffers from variant homogeneity with regard to minimum required hardpoint numbers and placement, but still has few enough (typically six) to allow for some flexibility.

Of note is that the Grasshopper and Guillotine and Quickdraw are jump-capable, while the Black Knight and Champion and Lancelot are not.

Thoughts?


#3915 Wieland

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:16 AM

The Quickdraw doesnt even have enough different variants.

QKD-4G and the QKD-4H are the same as we have no rear facing weapons.

RA 1 Med Laser
LA 1 Med Laser
RT 2 Med Laser
LT LRM10
CT SRM4


QKD-5A removes the LRM 10 and adds 2 Med Lasers and more Heatsinks.

RA 1 Med Laser
LA 1 Med Laser
RT 2 Med Laser
LT 2 Med Laser
CT SRM4


QKD-5K is the A with DHS and FF

RA 1 Med Laser
LA 1 Med Laser
RT 2 Med Laser
LT 2 Med Laser
CT SRM4

Edited by Wieland, 04 June 2013 - 10:03 AM.


#3916 sarkun

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:55 AM

So I guess they'll have to spice the variants of the Quickdraw a little - they wil have to give them extra hardpoints... boy am I the only one who thinks that Hunch 4SP is getting shafted?

#3917 Strum Wealh

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:11 AM

View PostAdridos, on 04 June 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Well, we now know the next IS heavy mech... Quickdraw.

What were the other possible options?
It might have helped this thread to have included a link to the announcement. :)

View PostBryan Ekman, on 04 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

New Content:
  • `Mech of the Month - Quickdraw (18th)
  • Hero `Mech of the Month - FireBrand (4th)
  • Champion `Mech of the Month - Hunchback-4P© (18th)
  • New Pattern(s) - Sherman (4th)
  • New Cockpit Item(s) - Spider Statue (18th)
  • Special - Sarah's `Mech (25th)

So, that brings us back to "Which will be the next Medium?"

View PostWieland, on 04 June 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

The Quickdraw doesnt even have enough different variants.

QKD-4G and the QKD-4H are the same as we have no rear facing weapons.

RA 1 Med Laser
LA 1 Med Laser
RT 2 Med Laser
LT LRM10
CT SRM4


QKD-5A removes the LRM 10 and adds 2 Med Lasers and more Heatsinks.

RA 1 Med Laser
LA 1 Med Laser
RT 2 Med Laser
LT 2 Med Laser
CT SRM4


QKD-5K is the A with DHS and FF

RA 1 Med Laser
LA 1 Med Laser
RT 2 Med Laser
LT 2 Med Laser
CT SRM4

The can be differentiated by hardpoint inflation - bump each variant up to 9-10 hardpoints, and spread the extras out as needed.

#3918 Belorion

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:59 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 04 June 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

It might have helped this thread to have included a link to the announcement. :)
So, that brings us back to "Which will be the next Medium?"


The can be differentiated by hardpoint inflation - bump each variant up to 9-10 hardpoints, and spread the extras out as needed.


This, this and this again. I don't get why people keep talking about variants as if they won't be getting extra hard points that make the variant different. Have they even put any mechs in the game without extra hard points? Several of the stock versions of catapults (one of the first mechs) have the same hard points before you look at the extra hard points PGI added.

On topic, at this point the only thing we know is that Quickdraw is going in this month, and that at some point they will be putting in the Flea, the Orion, and the Victor. It wouldn't even surprise me if the next assault or light will be different.

My medium money is still on the Kintaro.

#3919 Morang

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostBelorion, on 04 June 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

My medium money is still on the Kintaro.

After the Quickdraw? Same missile/energy mix, same speed, just 5 tons lighter and no jump jets. Don't think so.

#3920 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostMorang, on 04 June 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

After the Quickdraw? Same missile/energy mix, same speed, just 5 tons lighter and no jump jets. Don't think so.

Also would seem to largely nerf my Dervish (even if it doesn't put all it's missiles in one torso like the Quicky does). Though I can certainly hope I am wrong!

Still, if I can't has my Dervish, hopefully I get my Vulcan still?





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