20517 replies to this topic

[Scrawny Cowboy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 August 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Yup. A PPC shot would cripple destroy most Lights, depending on where it connected, the Wolfhound being one of the few to be able to take one straight up. Yet in TT, we regularly see Lights nailed with MULTIPLE PPC, Gauss or AC20 shots and run off nearly unscathed.

nailing a Commando, center mass with 2 AC20 shot, even with double armor, should be insta death. Makes me wonder if they aren't leaving hit registration borked intentionally.

Seen that with shots somewhat connecting on Jenners, red crosshair and graphics ect. Fire an AC20 less than 50m, arm flickers yellow external. : /

[Wieland]

You would see alot more different mechs on the battlefield without the mechlab or atleast with sized hardpoints.

[Bishop Steiner]

and now for a chassis we will NEVER see in game


since not only is it pretty much extinct outside the ComGuards, but if people were QQing over ECM in this game, the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and Null Signature tech would definitely cause a riot (IF PGI could even figure out a way to make them work in game!)

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 August 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

since not only is it pretty much extinct outside the ComGuards, but if people were QQing over ECM in this game, the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and Null Signature tech would definitely cause a riot (IF PGI could even figure out a way to make them work in game!)

Nice mech!

MWO's ECM already makes impossible to lock a mech you have line of sight. I can't see how a vehicle of dozens of tons can be more stealthier than that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 22 August 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Nice mech!

MWO's ECM already makes impossible to lock a mech you have line of sight. I can't see how a vehicle of dozens of tons can be more stealthier than that.

by making it impervious to TAG, BAP ECM counter AND harder to actually see in the first place? (THink a poor man's Predator!)

[Morang]

Odanan, on 22 August 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

MWO's ECM already makes impossible to lock a mech you have line of sight. I can't see how a vehicle of dozens of tons can be more stealthier than that.

Think of nanosuit from Crysis in Stealth Mode, probably not only in visible light, but in FLIR too.

Real-world prototype of altering the vehicle signature in infrared.

Edited by Morang, 23 August 2013 - 02:29 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 22 August 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Nice mech!

MWO's ECM already makes impossible to lock a mech you have line of sight. I can't see how a vehicle of dozens of tons can be more stealthier than that.

Well, one would have to look at what each of the systems does.

Null Signature System (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)

• "Created by the first Star League, the null-signature system is an elaborate series of passive and active electronic countermeasures and heat baffles that combine to mask a BattleMech’s heat and electromagnetic signature."
  
• "While the Null-Signature System is engaged, attacks against the unit at Medium range receive an additional +1 to-hit modifier, while attacks at Long and Extreme Range receive an additional +2 to-hit modifier. Beagle Active Probes and their Clan equivalents cannot locate a hidden unit with an active Null-Signature System, and heat-seeking weapons (such as Heat-Seeking Missiles) calculate their to-hit modifiers against the unit as though it is 8 points cooler than it actually is. Only a Bloodhound Active Probe can penetrate the Null-Signature System’s masking."

Chameleon Light Polarization Shield (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)

• "Created by the first Star League, the so-called Chameleon light polarization shield uses a primitive mimetic system to help mask the ’Mech on which it is installed from visual observation at long and extreme range. While it does not render the unit truly invisible, the effect does blur its outline, making the ’Mech harder to identify or attack."
  
• "While the shield is active, the ’Mech is more difficult to attack at long distance. Medium-range attacks receive an additional +1 to-hit modifier, and Long- or Extreme-range attacks receive an additional +2 to-hit modifier. Unlike most other stealth systems, these modifiers apply even if the attacking unit is infantry."

Stealth Armor (TechManual, pg. 206)

• "Based on an effort to recover the long-lost Star League-era null signature system, the Capellan Confederation’s stealth armor technology is actually a complex system of heat baffles and layers of radar- and EM-absorbent materials that - while about as bulky as ferro-fibrous armor - provides the same physical protection as standard armor. Limited exclusively to BattleMechs, this system requires the use of a Guardian ECM suite to function, but when activated, the ’Mech becomes virtually invisible to hostile sensors and EW devices."
  
• "When the stealth armor system is engaged, the ECM continues to function normally, but the ’Mech suffers effects as if in the radius of an enemy ECM suite." (Total Warfare, pg. 142)
  
• "While the system is engaged, attacks against a unit equipped with stealth armor receive additional to-hit modifiers of +1 at medium range and +2 at long range. In addition, a ’Mech with its stealth armor system engaged cannot be attacked as a secondary target." (Total Warfare, pg. 142)

Guardian ECM (TechManual, pg. 213)
"This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear."

Angel ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

• "Derived from captured Clan technology, research on the Angel ECM Suite began shortly after the Battle of Luthien as part of an effort to counter the increasingly sophisticated electronic warfare systems of the modern battlefield. Essentially a boosted, broader-spectrum version of the Guardian ECM, the Angel was shelved numerous times due to cost overruns and ultimately saved only with aid from ComStar."
  
• "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
  
• "Units equipped with Stealth Armor can use the Angel ECM in place of the Guardian ECM for the same effect, using the same rules."
  
• "If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM." (TacOps, pg. 100)
  
• "An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1 ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets." (TacOps, pg. 102)

Void Signature System (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

• "An evolution of the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and the Null Signature System, the Word of Blake’s experimental Void Signature System ties into a unit’s sensors and uses a large-scale variation on mimetic armor technology to render a BattleMech virtually invisible."
  
• "While a Void-Signature System is active, the effect is similar to Mimetic battlesuit armor."
  
• "The to-hit penalties for attacks against a BattleMech using a Void-Signature System are based on the number of hexes the ’Mech moved during the Movement Phase. For 0 hexes moved, the to-hit modifier is +3; for 1 to 2 hexes, +2; and for 3 to 5 hexes, +1. If the ’Mech moved 6 hexes or more, no modifier applies. Reduce these modifiers by 1 (to a minimum of 0) if the attacking unit is conventional infantry."
  
• "Only a Bloodhound probe can penetrate the Void-Signature System’s masking effect. The Watchdog system, Beagle Active Probe and their Clan equivalents may not detect a hidden unit using a Void Signature System."

The Capellans' Stealth Armor is essentially "a poor man's Null Signature System", where NullSig itself is very similar to the ADAPTIV system created by BAE Systems (linked in Morang's post).

The Chameleon Light Polarization Shield is likely based on electrochromic technology; Popular Science ran an article in May 1997 regarding similar technologies being applied to the Joint Strike Fighter project (now the F-35) as a stealth system (see here and here).

The Void Signature System is essentially a combined package of NullSig and CLPS, but (like Stealth Armor and unlike either NullSig or CLPS) requires an ECM suite (either Guardian or Angel) to be installed and operational in order to function.

The Guardian ECM Suite ("...typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors...") is a multi-spectrum electronic warfare system that likely includes electronic radar jamming equipment, some degree of laser jamming equipment, an infrared countermeasures (IRCM) system (likely very similar to the planned CIRCM system), a sonar jamming system (see here and here), and some system meant to confuse magnetometers and magnetic anomaly detectors.
The Angel ECM suite is really just a single box containing two sets of (souped-up) Guardian ECM innards.

[Odanan]

Strum Wealh, on 23 August 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Well, one would have to look at what each of the systems does.

Null Signature System (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)

• "Created by the first Star League, the null-signature system is an elaborate series of passive and active electronic countermeasures and heat baffles that combine to mask a BattleMech’s heat and electromagnetic signature."
  
• "While the Null-Signature System is engaged, attacks against the unit at Medium range receive an additional +1 to-hit modifier, while attacks at Long and Extreme Range receive an additional +2 to-hit modifier. Beagle Active Probes and their Clan equivalents cannot locate a hidden unit with an active Null-Signature System, and heat-seeking weapons (such as Heat-Seeking Missiles) calculate their to-hit modifiers against the unit as though it is 8 points cooler than it actually is. Only a Bloodhound Active Probe can penetrate the Null-Signature System’s masking."

Chameleon Light Polarization Shield (Tactical Operations, pg. 336)

• "Created by the first Star League, the so-called Chameleon light polarization shield uses a primitive mimetic system to help mask the ’Mech on which it is installed from visual observation at long and extreme range. While it does not render the unit truly invisible, the effect does blur its outline, making the ’Mech harder to identify or attack."
  
• "While the shield is active, the ’Mech is more difficult to attack at long distance. Medium-range attacks receive an additional +1 to-hit modifier, and Long- or Extreme-range attacks receive an additional +2 to-hit modifier. Unlike most other stealth systems, these modifiers apply even if the attacking unit is infantry."

Stealth Armor (TechManual, pg. 206)

• "Based on an effort to recover the long-lost Star League-era null signature system, the Capellan Confederation’s stealth armor technology is actually a complex system of heat baffles and layers of radar- and EM-absorbent materials that - while about as bulky as ferro-fibrous armor - provides the same physical protection as standard armor. Limited exclusively to BattleMechs, this system requires the use of a Guardian ECM suite to function, but when activated, the ’Mech becomes virtually invisible to hostile sensors and EW devices."
  
• "When the stealth armor system is engaged, the ECM continues to function normally, but the ’Mech suffers effects as if in the radius of an enemy ECM suite." (Total Warfare, pg. 142)
  
• "While the system is engaged, attacks against a unit equipped with stealth armor receive additional to-hit modifiers of +1 at medium range and +2 at long range. In addition, a ’Mech with its stealth armor system engaged cannot be attacked as a secondary target." (Total Warfare, pg. 142)

Guardian ECM (TechManual, pg. 213)

"This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear."

Angel ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

• "Derived from captured Clan technology, research on the Angel ECM Suite began shortly after the Battle of Luthien as part of an effort to counter the increasingly sophisticated electronic warfare systems of the modern battlefield. Essentially a boosted, broader-spectrum version of the Guardian ECM, the Angel was shelved numerous times due to cost overruns and ultimately saved only with aid from ComStar."
  
• "The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
  
• "Units equipped with Stealth Armor can use the Angel ECM in place of the Guardian ECM for the same effect, using the same rules."
  
• "If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM." (TacOps, pg. 100)
  
• "An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1 ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets." (TacOps, pg. 102)

Void Signature System (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)

• "An evolution of the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and the Null Signature System, the Word of Blake’s experimental Void Signature System ties into a unit’s sensors and uses a large-scale variation on mimetic armor technology to render a BattleMech virtually invisible."
  
• "While a Void-Signature System is active, the effect is similar to Mimetic battlesuit armor."
  
• "The to-hit penalties for attacks against a BattleMech using a Void-Signature System are based on the number of hexes the ’Mech moved during the Movement Phase. For 0 hexes moved, the to-hit modifier is +3; for 1 to 2 hexes, +2; and for 3 to 5 hexes, +1. If the ’Mech moved 6 hexes or more, no modifier applies. Reduce these modifiers by 1 (to a minimum of 0) if the attacking unit is conventional infantry."
  
• "Only a Bloodhound probe can penetrate the Void-Signature System’s masking effect. The Watchdog system, Beagle Active Probe and their Clan equivalents may not detect a hidden unit using a Void Signature System."

The Capellans' Stealth Armor is essentially "a poor man's Null Signature System", where NullSig itself is very similar to the ADAPTIV system created by BAE Systems (linked in Morang's post).

The Chameleon Light Polarization Shield is likely based on electrochromic technology; Popular Science ran an article in May 1997 regarding similar technologies being applied to the Joint Strike Fighter project (now the F-35) as a stealth system (see here and here).

The Void Signature System is essentially a combined package of NullSig and CLPS, but (like Stealth Armor and unlike either NullSig or CLPS) requires an ECM suite (either Guardian or Angel) to be installed and operational in order to function.

The Guardian ECM Suite ("...typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors...") is a multi-spectrum electronic warfare system that likely includes electronic radar jamming equipment, some degree of laser jamming equipment, an infrared countermeasures (IRCM) system (likely very similar to the planned CIRCM system), a sonar jamming system (see here and here), and some system meant to confuse magnetometers and magnetic anomaly detectors.
The Angel ECM suite is really just a single box containing two sets of (souped-up) Guardian ECM innards.

Sure, but how to adapt all this to a multiplayer video game?

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 23 August 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Sure, but how to adapt all this to a multiplayer video game?

ever see "Predator"?

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 August 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

ever see "Predator"?

Or play Phantom Crash?


A Photon-class "Scoobee" (the general name for the in-game mecha) from Phantom Crash, with "optic camouflage" activated:

The same Photon, uncloaked:


That's basically how CLPS and the cloaking element of VoidSig should/would look when activated...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 23 August 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 August 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

ever see "Predator"?

Strum Wealh, on 23 August 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Or play Phantom Crash?
A Photon-class "Scoobee" (the general name for the in-game mecha) from Phantom Crash, with "optic camouflage" activated:
The same Photon, uncloaked:

That's basically how CLPS and the cloaking element of VoidSig should/would look when activated...

You didn't understand my question. When I asked how to adapt the technology to a MULTIPLAYER video game, I was worried about the balance aspect. An equipment that truly denies much of all weapons (without giving any disadvantage) is game breaking.

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 23 August 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

You didn't understand my question. When I asked how to adapt the technology to a MULTIPLAYER video game, I was worried about the balance aspect. An equipment that truly denies much of all weapons (without giving any disadvantage) is game breaking.

Each of the systems listed has its downsides.

Null Signature System:

• The NSS is canonically "perma-LosTech" - that is, no known surviving examples exist in the IS (including in ComStar's caches), no one in the IS has the knowledge to recreate it, and the Clans (if they even have any surviving, functional examples) would not use it due to their cultural outlook.
  
• The NSS can be defeated by the Bloodhound Active Probe.
  
• The NSS's benefits are negated if it is active at the same time as the Blue Shield Particle Field Damper.
  
• The NSS does not hide the unit against infantry or visual spotting.
  
• The NSS does not generate a bubble like ECM does, so it is unable to hide allied nuits in addition to the unit mounting the NSS.
  
• The NSS runs hot - it generates 10 units of heat per BT "turn" (10-second interval), or 1.0 units of heat per second.
  
• The NSS necessarily consumes one critical in each location except the head (for a total of 7 criticals), and losing any part of it (for example, by blowing off an arm or leg) completely disables the entire system.
  
• The NSS cannot be pod-mounted, so any OmniMech not built with it hardwired to the base model cannot ever equip it.
  
• The NSS is incompatible with any unit mounting a Targeting Computer, C3 equipment of any sort, Stealth Armor, or a Void Signature System.

Chameleon Light Polarization Shield:

• Like the Null Signature System, the CLPS is canonically "perma-LosTech" - never recovered by the IS, and not is use by the Clans (assuming they have any working examples left).
  
• The CLPS runs hot - it generates 6 units of heat per BT "turn" (10-second interval), or 0.6 units of heat per second.
  
• The CLPS necessarily consumes one critical in each limb and each side-torso (for a total of 6 criticals), and losing any part of it (for example, by blowing off an arm or leg) completely disables the entire system.
  
• The CLPS cannot be pod-mounted, so any OmniMech not built with it hardwired to the base model cannot ever equip it.
  
• The CLPS is incompatible with any unit mounting Stealth Armor or a Void Signature System.
  
• The CLPS has no effect against Beagle, Beagle's unnamed Clan-built counterpart, the Clan-built Light Active Probe, or the Active Probe components of either the Electronic Warfare Equipment or the Watchdog CEWS.

Stealth Armor:

• Stealth Armor isn't (that is, shouldn't be) available until the in-game timeline reaches 3063.
  
• Stealth Armor consumes 12 critical spaces (which must be placed as two in each limb and each side-torso), provides the same number of armor points per ton as Standard Armor (which is less than FF-type armors) and has no special damage resistances (unlike Hardened Armor, Reactive Armor, and Reflective Armor).
  
• Stealth Armor is only available to IS 'Mechs; no 'Mech-scale Clan version exists, and (assuming they're implemented correctly) OmniMechs cannot change their armor type anyway.
  
• Stealth Armor requires an ECM Suite (Guardian, Guardian's unnamed Clan-built equivalent/counterpart, Angel, or the Watchdog CEWS) installed and operational in order to function; destruction or removal of the ECM Suite disables the stealth functions.
  
• Stealth Armor does not hide the unit against infantry or visual spotting.
  
• Stealth Armor runs hot - it generates 10 units of heat per BT "turn" (10-second interval), or 1.0 units of heat per second.
  
• When the Stealth Armor is in its active state, the Stealth Armor causes the ’Mech's own electronics suffers effects as if the 'Mech were within the bubble of an enemy ECM suite.
  
• Stealth Armor is incompatible with any unit mounting a Null Signature System, Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, or Void Signature System.
  
• Stealth Armor is (canonically) five times more expensive than Standard Armor.

Void Signature System:

• The VSS isn't (that is, shouldn't be) available until the in-game timeline reaches 3070.
  
• The VSS necessarily consumes one critical in each location except the head (for a total of 7 criticals), and losing any part of it (for example, by blowing off an arm or leg) completely disables the entire system.
  
• The VSS requires an ECM Suite (Guardian, Guardian's unnamed Clan-built equivalent/counterpart, Angel, or the Watchdog CEWS) installed and operational in order to function; destruction or removal of the ECM Suite disables the entire system.
  
• The VSS is incompatible with any unit mounting a Targeting Computer, C3 equipment of any sort, Stealth Armor, a Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, or a Null Signature System.
  
• The VSS cannot be pod-mounted, so any OmniMech not built with it hardwired to the base model cannot ever equip it.
  
• The VSS runs hot - it generates 10 units of heat per BT "turn" (10-second interval), or 1.0 units of heat per second.
  
• The VSS interferes with the targeting systems of the unit mounting it while it is active (signified in BT by "[imposing] a +1 to-hit modifier on all weapon attacks made by the controlling unit").

The Angel ECM Suite isn't available until 3057, and shares many of the same drawbacks and limitations as its progenitor (that is, Guardian ECM), which have been discussed at length across the forum.

[Odanan]

They indeed have very serious disadvantages (heat being the most important).
Anyway, I hope PGI won't ever add them to the game, as they are unable to balance even simpler things like the ECM.

[Phoenix Branson]

Odanan, on 23 August 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

They indeed have very serious disadvantages (heat being the most important).
Anyway, I hope PGI won't ever add them to the game, as they are unable to balance even simpler things like the ECM.

I think true balance in a game takes many years. Look at Starcraft (perfect example). It took Blizzard almost a decade before it became the "premium e-sports title" it is today. Unfortunately, it may take many years for PGI to balance MWO.

[Odanan]

Maverick01, on 23 August 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

I think true balance in a game takes many years. Look at Starcraft (perfect example). It took Blizzard almost a decade before it became the "premium e-sports title" it is today. Unfortunately, it may take many years for PGI to balance MWO.

Starcraft has very different factions with very different mechanics. Balancing MWO is not that hard, but they don't even try it (see LBX and Flamer). At this pace there won't be perfect balance in 10 years, or never.

[Strum Wealh]

So, to get somewhat back on-track:

Bishop Steiner, on 22 August 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

and now for a chassis we will NEVER see in game


since not only is it pretty much extinct outside the ComGuards, but if people were QQing over ECM in this game, the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and Null Signature tech would definitely cause a riot (IF PGI could even figure out a way to make them work in game!)

Actually, the EXT-4A Exterminator variant (the Succession Wars "downgrade" variant) has been in production by Kallon Industries at their facility on Nanking (formerly of the CapCon, and currently part of the FedSuns - or, rather, the FedSuns side of the FedCom) since 3007 (according to TRO 3025 Revised & TRO 3050 Upgrade).
Though, the EXT-4A lacked the XL Engine, NSS, and AMS of the more-famous EXT-4D variant, and the CLPS of the EXT-4C variant.

Also, why is it that (as of this writing) all of BTE, EBT Trueborn, and Solaris7 are all down at the same time!?

[Kiandak]

ok guess I must be an "old school" player cause I really want warhammers and longbows...were two of the best balanced mechs ever.

[Wieland]

Kiandak, on 25 August 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

ok guess I must be an "old school" player cause I really want warhammers and longbows...were two of the best balanced mechs ever.

Most mechs were balanced. The problem is the mechlab. Why use mech x, when mech w can do the same as mech x,y and z.

[Odanan]

Wieland, on 25 August 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Most mechs were balanced. The problem is the mechlab. Why use mech x, when mech w can do the same as mech x,y and z.

In TT most mechs were {Scrap}. Those with PPC and/or lots of Medium Lasers were very good.

[Phoenix Branson]

Satellite image for new map Island Metropolis.