20517 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 September 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

The Panther could probably make a name for itself as an escort 'Mech once tonnage limits come it. It is fast enough to keep up with heavier units, hits hard enough to be discouraging to other lights, mobile enough to set up good ambush positions, durable enough to have some decent combat endurance, and tops it all off with being light enough not to hog your company's available tonnage. It would also be a harder target to hit than some equivalent designs like the Vindicator which is ten tons heavier. Similar arguments could be made for the Wolfhound.

Most of the 'Mechs that can be put in that are currently very outclassed come into their own with tonnage limits. Especially if those limits are severe enough to justify sacrificing some speed on lighter chassis for more fire power.

OK so tonnage limits say 35 tons tons is all you have available or your mech.

Quick, what advantage does a Panther, that will be speed capped to about 80 kph tops have over the Jenner, which has 1) better, and more hardpoints, 2) can carry just as much armor as the Panther 3) Jump farther than a Panther) and 4) run almost twice as fast as the Panther, possess?

Tonnage limits improving in class viability is a myth. Tonnage limit will allow for more people to run Mediums and such out of necessity, but it does nothing to prevent one mech of the same weight from totally outclassing the other based purely on it's speed and hardpoints.

Tonnage limits in no way make the Panther a better choice than a Jenner.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 September 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

OK so tonnage limits say 35 tons tons is all you have available or your mech.

Quick, what advantage does a Panther, that will be speed capped to about 80 kph tops have over the Jenner, which has 1) better, and more hardpoints, 2) can carry just as much armor as the Panther 3) Jump farther than a Panther) and 4) run almost twice as fast as the Panther, possess?

Tonnage limits improving in class viability is a myth. Tonnage limit will allow for more people to run Mediums and such out of necessity, but it does nothing to prevent one mech of the same weight from totally outclassing the other based purely on it's speed and hardpoints.

Tonnage limits in no way make the Panther a better choice than a Jenner.

I would use a Jenner for different things. Just because it is a jump capable light does not mean it does the same things. I would use the Panther to say escort Hunchbacks and Catapults, where a Jenner would be wasted potential in that role. Yes the Jenner has more hardpoints if you assume PGI will not add any more to the Panther than just the single energy and missile it needs for a stock build. And yes you can build it to do just what the Panther does, but why use a Jenner for that role? You have lobbied for the Urbanmech, why should the Panther get neglected? By your justification both are about equally useless. Does not mean people will not find a way to make them any less fun... or dangerous.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 22 September 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[Jack Gallows]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 September 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Tonnage limits in no way make the Panther a better choice than a Jenner.

We're scraping the proverbial bottom of the barrel.

'Mechs are going to be added to the game that aren't optimal due to how PGI lets us use the 'mechbay. It's an arms race like how it was before, with only a few things added. Max Engine Size and ECM are the two things that dictate usefulness now if a 'mech isn't at the VERY top of it's weight class. Huzzah for diversity if all anyone can think about is how to top a Jenner or Raven. Why add more 'mechs even if they aren't the super min/maxed variants everyone else uses?

My list incorporated 'mechs I'd like to see in game. We have a very generous spread of machines already and any of the 'mechs I'd listed would fit into the game even if they aren't better then X or Y 'mech. PGI doesn't add them based on that assumption either so don't go telling me a 'mech doesn't fit in the damn game just because it's hardpoints/equipment don't throttle another design already in game. It's not the 'mechs fault, it's PGI's and that's not going to change.

Screw the bloody 'mech lab and give me some 'mechs we don't normally see in Mechwarrior games! Give me designs that might be fun in other ways then just being the absolute out of the box superior because of how borked mechlab is.

We're at the point they can add whatever they want, it's mostly an aesthetics game now.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 22 September 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 September 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

I would use a Jenner for different things. Just because it is a jump capable light does not mean it does the same things. I would use the Panther to say escort Hunchbacks and Catapults, where a Jenner would be wasted potential in that role. Yes the Jenner has more hardpoints if you assume PGI will not add any more to the Panther than just the single energy and missile it needs for a stock build. And yes you can build it to do just what the Panther does, but why use a Jenner for that role? You have lobbied for the Urbanmech, why should the Panther get neglected? By your justification both are about equally useless. Does not mean people will not find a way to make them any less fun... or dangerous.

Jack Gallows, on 22 September 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

We're scraping the proverbial bottom of the barrel.

'Mechs are going to be added to the game that aren't optimal due to how PGI lets us use the 'mechbay. It's an arms race like how it was before, with only a few things added. Max Engine Size and ECM are the two things that dictate usefulness now if a 'mech isn't at the VERY top of it's weight class. Huzzah for diversity if all anyone can think about is how to top a Jenner or Raven. Why add more 'mechs even if they aren't the super min/maxed variants everyone else uses?

My list incorporated 'mechs I'd like to see in game. We have a very generous spread of machines already and any of the 'mechs I'd listed would fit into the game even if they aren't better then X or Y 'mech. PGI doesn't add them based on that assumption either so don't go telling me a 'mech doesn't fit in the damn game just because it's hardpoints/equipment don't throttle another design already in game. It's not the 'mechs fault, it's PGI's and that's not going to change.

Screw the bloody 'mech lab and give me some 'mechs we don't normally see in Mechwarrior games! Give me designs that might be fun in other ways then just being the absolute out of the box superior because of how borked mechlab is.

We're at the point they can add whatever they want, it's mostly an aesthetics game now.

Or maybe, we can continue to try to push for the change needed to make all mech shave distinct roles and thus usefulness?

Why would I as a consumer, push for a unit that is extremely limited in role (the Panther) when I can use the same money (IRL or otherwise) to purchase a Mech (the Jenner) which can do any role the Panther can AND a variety of other roles?

The Urbanmech I push as something of a joke, although it is iconic enough, that even in the current Meta, as a totally useless design, ti would sell. But it would also be useless. Lights without speed are dead lights. Thus, a Panther is a wasted "escort" when I can cut it to piece with a Jenner. (Since an escorts job is to protect it's charges from lighter threats that it can't handle). The Reason the Hunchback and others are viable in that role is they actually carry enough armor, and significantly more firepower than the faster Light threat.

You do nothing to refute the point I was making, in that your attempt to promote the Weight Matching as making it viable is a joke. I want these mechs in the game too. But I want an actual reason to play them, and NOT handicap my team in the process. I would love to see all mechs in this game. I would love to see them all have an actual ROLE in the game.

The current Mechlab implementation does not make that a realistic occurrence.

You want the Panther in the game Jack? SO do I. Know how to make it work? SImple. Sized hardpoints mean no Jenner can pack a PPC. The Panther can. Armor caps mean that the Jenner can't carry as heavy of armor as a Panther. Bang. Panther has a role now. Same with the even better armored Wolfhound. And the Jenner still has a role, just no longer as the "do everything but pack ECM" wundermech it is now.

Having mechs JUST to have them is sadly pointless for PGI to pursue as a business if they can't generate revenue with them. Mechs for "fluff fun" as much as I would like them as a fan of the IP, will not drive revenue, in all but the rarest of cases (such as possibly an Urbanmech) , in a competitive FPS game, which PGI has delusions of this being.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 September 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[Draecos]

The Marauder NEEDS to be brought in. It's iconic to anyone who played the old TT.

Suggestion:

Do a redesign similar to what you guys did with the Locust. Really love what was done with that design. Close enough to pass as the old school Locust, but new enough and changed enough to "make it yours".

Edited by Draecos, 22 September 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[Phoenix Branson]

Jack Gallows, on 22 September 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

We're scraping the proverbial bottom of the barrel.

'Mechs are going to be added to the game that aren't optimal due to how PGI lets us use the 'mechbay. It's an arms race like how it was before, with only a few things added. Max Engine Size and ECM are the two things that dictate usefulness now if a 'mech isn't at the VERY top of it's weight class. Huzzah for diversity if all anyone can think about is how to top a Jenner or Raven. Why add more 'mechs even if they aren't the super min/maxed variants everyone else uses?

My list incorporated 'mechs I'd like to see in game. We have a very generous spread of machines already and any of the 'mechs I'd listed would fit into the game even if they aren't better then X or Y 'mech. PGI doesn't add them based on that assumption either so don't go telling me a 'mech doesn't fit in the damn game just because it's hardpoints/equipment don't throttle another design already in game. It's not the 'mechs fault, it's PGI's and that's not going to change.

Screw the bloody 'mech lab and give me some 'mechs we don't normally see in Mechwarrior games! Give me designs that might be fun in other ways then just being the absolute out of the box superior because of how borked mechlab is.

We're at the point they can add whatever they want, it's mostly an aesthetics game now.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 September 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Or maybe, we can continue to try to push for the change needed to make all mech shave distinct roles and thus usefulness?

Why would I as a consumer, push for a unit that is extremely limited in role (the Panther) when I can use the same money (IRL or otherwise) to purchase a Mech (the Jenner) which can do any role the Panther can AND a variety of other roles?

The Urbanmech I push as something of a joke, although it is iconic enough, that even in the current Meta, as a totally useless design, ti would sell. But it would also be useless. Lights without speed are dead lights. Thus, a Panther is a wasted "escort" when I can cut it to piece with a Jenner. (Since an escorts job is to protect it's charges from lighter threats that it can't handle). The Reason the Hunchback and others are viable in that role is they actually carry enough armor, and significantly more firepower than the faster Light threat.

You do nothing to refute the point I was making, in that your attempt to promote the Weight Matching as making it viable is a joke. I want these mechs in the game too. But I want an actual reason to play them, and NOT handicap my team in the process. I would love to see all mechs in this game. I would love to see them all have an actual ROLE in the game.

The current Mechlab implementation does not make that a realistic occurrence.

You want the Panther in the game Jack? SO do I. Know how to make it work? SImple. Sized hardpoints mean no Jenner can pack a PPC. The Panther can. Armor caps mean that the Jenner can't carry as heavy of armor as a Panther. Bang. Panther has a role now. Same with the even better armored Wolfhound. And the Jenner still has a role, just no longer as the "do everything but pack ECM" wundermech it is now.

Having mechs JUST to have them is sadly pointless for PGI to pursue as a business if they can't generate revenue with them. Mechs for "fluff fun" as much as I would like them as a fan of the IP, will not drive revenue, in all but the rarest of cases (such as possibly an Urbanmech) , in a competitive FPS game, which PGI has delusions of this being.

I have to disagree with you both. Yes, some 'Mechs are better than others, but there is a solution to that problem. People forget PGI could give a number of 'Mech quirks that would make any 'Mech viable, such as:

UrbanMech: Have a quirk to allow the 'Mech to torso twist 360 degrees.
Panther: Have a quirk that gives this 'Mech some percentage of damage resistance.

These are just examples, but are some tools the developers have at bringing less powerful chassis' into the game. Thought?

[Bishop Steiner]

Maverick01, on 22 September 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I have to disagree with you both. Yes, some 'Mechs are better than others, but there is a solution to that problem. People forget PGI could give a number of 'Mech quirks that would make any 'Mech viable, such as:

UrbanMech: Have a quirk to allow the 'Mech to torso twist 360 degrees.
Panther: Have a quirk that gives this 'Mech some percentage of damage resistance.

These are just examples, but are some tools the developers have at bringing less powerful chassis' into the game. Thought?

They seem to have forgotten about their quirks.

Also, "damage resistance"? Start getting ones like that, far too easy to get out of control.

[CDLord HHGD]

Maverick01, on 22 September 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

UrbanMech: Have a quirk to allow the 'Mech to torso twist 360 degrees.

It would be UNSTOPPABLE!!!! ALL FEAR THE POSSESSED URBIE!!!!!

EDIT: I would so pay real money for this though..... I'd spend Atlas money on this....

Edited by cdlord, 22 September 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[John MatriX82]

Maverick01, on 22 September 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

People forget PGI could give a number of 'Mech quirks that would make any 'Mech viable, such as:

UrbanMech: Have a quirk to allow the 'Mech to torso twist 360 degrees.
Panther: Have a quirk that gives this 'Mech some percentage of damage resistance.

These are just examples, but are some tools the developers have at bringing less powerful chassis' into the game. Thought?

Like giving Hunchbacks a 10-15% extra armor bonus in the hunch or Dragons in the CT, let Awesomes shoot 3xPPCs or ER PPCs without gettin heat penalties and such?

Are we speaking of TRUE quirks/bonuses and not "oh my I can get moar torso pitch, that gives me a tremendous advantage so that now everyone will use mediums"? If so i totally agree.

But PGI will never give these mechs true quirks unfortunately, they think that more arm yaw or torso movements are uber bonuses.

Edited by John MatriX82, 23 September 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

The flamer is just the stock weapon and those get changed anyhow. What the Firestarter HAS is 6 energy hardpoints, 2 ballistic and jump jets. AS much as I love the Mongoose, all it really has is speed in comparison.

^^THIS!
Yeah Flamers still suck, but with the current HP system of MWO, the Firestarter could be one of the best IS light mechs by far.

Ps: Don't forget the ECM and BAP variants!
In my opinion, the Firestarter is one of the "must haves" for MWO.

[ReguIus]

I'll have to agree with those who think hardpoint sizes should be taken into account. There are so many inherent gameplay related improvements (if you exclude some rebalancing/redesign work) coming with it that I don't really know why they aren't in the game already. Not only it would make some chassis stand out better (roles, just like aforementioned JM vs. CTF) but it would also help bring some individual variants into life within just one chassis. There are a lot of examples, like Ravens or Stalkers. Both include variants you just never see... Yeah, for EXPing maybe, but it doesn't count. I do hope PGI will come to this realization at some point...

But after they realize that the Banshee is what this game needs right now...

[Odanan]

Kurbutti, on 23 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'll have to agree with those who think hardpoint sizes should be taken into account. There are so many inherent gameplay related improvements (if you exclude some rebalancing/redesign work) coming with it that I don't really know why they aren't in the game already. Not only it would make some chassis stand out better (roles, just like aforementioned JM vs. CTF) but it would also help bring some individual variants into life within just one chassis. There are a lot of examples, like Ravens or Stalkers. Both include variants you just never see... Yeah, for EXPing maybe, but it doesn't count. I do hope PGI will come to this realization at some point...

But after they realize that the Banshee is what this game needs right now...

This^

[SgtMagor]

...

[Bishop Steiner]

Kurbutti, on 23 September 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I'll have to agree with those who think hardpoint sizes should be taken into account. There are so many inherent gameplay related improvements (if you exclude some rebalancing/redesign work) coming with it that I don't really know why they aren't in the game already. Not only it would make some chassis stand out better (roles, just like aforementioned JM vs. CTF) but it would also help bring some individual variants into life within just one chassis. There are a lot of examples, like Ravens or Stalkers. Both include variants you just never see... Yeah, for EXPing maybe, but it doesn't count. I do hope PGI will come to this realization at some point...

But after they realize that the Urbanmech is what this game needs right now...

ftfy

[General Taskeen]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 September 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Panther is slow, slow light equals DEAD.
Wolfhound is all energy, and is only moderately fast. TOtally outclassed by the two existing 35 tonners, which have better hardpoints, and often times JJs.

Right, in Mech Warrior pure customization terms (unlimited customization game modes), yes it is "outclassed." In pure stock form vs. other pure stock Light Mechs, it is fine. It has almost 95% armor coverage, plenty of jump jets, and long range fire power. Most other "fast" Light Mechs are very lightly armored. Of course that is only relevant if and when any type of pure stock game mode were to exist in this game.

[Wieland]

Quote

Question from Redshift2k5: Will November, December, etc see more than one mech released per month? With all four primary Project Pheonix mechs coming out in October, plus reinforcements in December.. If those mechs are all completed months ahead of their c-bill release date, will we see any additional mechs released during that time (ie, mechs being created during the span from October 2013 to Feb 2014?)


Answer from Bryan: We’ve created a nice little 3 month buffer to get ahead of our `Mech of The Month (MOTM) releases. This window was created and designed to allow us some time to experiment with Clan technologies and `Mechs. Our goal is to have the Clan starting lineup (4-6) `Mechs ready and completed for launch in the first two quarters of next year. So while we could focus on doubling up MOTM releases, we feel this time is going to be spent on Clan technologies.

To make it short, the next unannounced mech will come in April.

[Ens]

i hope not :|

[FireSlade]

If it gives them time to figure out how to bring the clans into the game without having MWO go FUBAR then it will be worth the lack of new mechs. It is going to be a tough few months while we wait but it will be better than everyone only taking clan tech out and innersphere tech becoming obsolete. They better make the most of it though; been really getting sick of them slowly releasing the mechs without any heads up, or teasers, of new mech plans. I think that they burned themselves with a few of the designs not being released due to them running behind schedule with getting in game features.

[Steinar Bergstol]

My solution to making mechs like the Panther and Wolfhound useful in MWO would, of course, be to ambush the mechlab on its way home from work one night, take it far out to sea and tie a heavy weight to its feet before throwing it overboard.

I do realize that is an extreme stance to take, however, and one which would probably get me lynched by the majority of MWO's players if PGI listened to me (which they won't). Still, you can't say it wouldn't solve the issues caused by the current implementation of the mechlab at least.

[FireSlade]

You are right in the fact that it would fix a lot of problems; hell even implementing hardpoint sizes would do wonders for balancing the game. Problem with that is that half the fun in the game is designing builds of your favorite mech and making them work in game. Another problem you would start to see is that only some mechs would ever get used, more than now, because players always look for the path of the least resistance (easy mode). At least with the mech lab as is now we see people using their favorite mechs since they can build a better design than stock and use it.